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#1
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Newbie to CO2 injection needs help.
My setup: 10 gal. freshwater aquarium 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon) Natural gravel substrate Assorted plants and fish Ghost shrimp Malaysian ramshorn snails Aquaclear filter DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter) Airstone (used when lights are off) Heater (75°F) PMDD My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2 using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty high. Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe the first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH below the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast plant growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.) I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a bunch of naked snails, so: 1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a permanent basis? 2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2 already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because of my current pH of 7.0-7.2? And a few other questions: 3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd do a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work anymore. 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable chemical reaction? 5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells? Thanks in advance! Chris |
#2
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is safe
given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium? Keith "Chris Crochet" wrote in message om... Newbie to CO2 injection needs help. My setup: 10 gal. freshwater aquarium 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon) Natural gravel substrate Assorted plants and fish Ghost shrimp Malaysian ramshorn snails Aquaclear filter DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter) Airstone (used when lights are off) Heater (75°F) PMDD My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2 using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty high. Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe the first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH below the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast plant growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.) I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a bunch of naked snails, so: 1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a permanent basis? 2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2 already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because of my current pH of 7.0-7.2? And a few other questions: 3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd do a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work anymore. 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable chemical reaction? 5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells? Thanks in advance! Chris |
#3
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Keith wrote:
Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is safe given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium? as safe as chlorine in NaCl, aka kitchen salt. ghrom -- http://ghrom.com |
#4
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CO2, pH, and Snails
"Keith" wrote in message ...
Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is safe given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium? That is a valid and logical concern. I wouldn't have considered this, except that phosphoric acid, the most commonly-used pH reducer, was totally unacceptable. With my tapwater so alkaline, I had to use a lot of it, which was both expensive and turned my aquarium into an algae tank. Phosphorous is well known to cause algae growth. So I did some research on alternatives, and found references to hydrochloric, sulfuric, and acetic acids being used. Hydrochloric acid seemed to be the best of the bunch. This quote, borrowed from a couple of Usenet posts from Uareptigrl sums up the general opinion of what I found nicely: "All fish are sensitive to chlorine, but hydrochloric acid is a solution that is safe for fish because the chloride ions are free...I work for one of the largest aquariums in the world, and we use hydrochloric acid ONLY. NEVER use sulfuric no matter what the idiots at the fish stores tell you. Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is the only option." In addition, it is also regularly used to lower the pH of ponds, so I took the "chance" and never looked back. It works perfectly, with no detectable ill effects. Some months later, I brought up the topic with an aquarium old-timer at a local franchise pet store (a rare and wonderful find!), and he said that hydrochloric acid was what most people used before commercial pH reducers were sold. Advantages: 1) Doesn't contribute to algae growth. 2) A gallon, readily available for $6 in the pool supply section of the grocery store, is a lifetime supply for a casual aquarist. Disadvantages: 1) Phosphoric acid tends to lower pH to a certain level and keep it there, which is why it's so commonly used. Hydrochloric acid doesn't do this, and will not maintain pH if you have something in your tank that is leaching into the water and actively pushing it back up. 2) Hydrochloric acid, straight out of the bottle at 31.45%, is strong and dangerous stuff. It produces caustic fumes that can burn the nose if inhaled. I handle it in this form as little as possible. Instead, I dilute a batch with water, at 1:8 ratio, in a plastic two-liter bottle and use that. At this concentration, it no longer fumes, and is far safer/easier to handle. -Chris |
#5
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CO2, pH, and Snails
I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and
the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly Chris Crochet wrote "All fish are sensitive to chlorine, but hydrochloric acid is a solution that is safe for fish because the chloride ions are free...I work for one of the largest aquariums in the world, and we use hydrochloric acid ONLY. NEVER use sulfuric no matter what the idiots at the fish stores tell you. Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is the only option." snip Advantages: 1) Doesn't contribute to algae growth. 2) A gallon, readily available for $6 in the pool supply section of the grocery store, is a lifetime supply for a casual aquarist. Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so cheap and ***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with to high of levels of Chlorine*** The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate. When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!! Disadvantages: snip 2) Hydrochloric acid, straight out of the bottle at 31.45%, is strong and dangerous stuff. It produces caustic fumes that can burn the nose if inhaled. I handle it in this form as little as possible. Instead, I dilute a batch with water, at 1:8 ratio, in a plastic two-liter bottle and use that. At this concentration, it no longer fumes, and is far safer/easier to handle. At that concentration it is called house hold bleach 1/8 31% = 3.8% household bleach is generally 3%HCl or 5%NaCl If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer - longer-lasting, and more benefits. eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for many plants and animals. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER Kris |
#6
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Kris wrote:
I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly that's because you know very little about chemistry. Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so cheap and HCl has nothing to do with form of Cl used to sanitize swimming pools. ***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with to high of levels of Chlorine*** The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate. When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!! no, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about. besides, chlorine is not an oxidizer, chloramine is not either - oxygen is. If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer - longer-lasting, and more benefits. eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for many plants and animals. you must be joking, crushed coral actually _increases_ pH, it always did, always will. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER Kris please, do not tell ppl what they should do if you don't know the subject. ghrom -- http://ghrom.com |
#7
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Piotr Farbiszewski wrote: Kris wrote: I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly that's because you know very little about chemistry. If I wrote something that you disagree with then debate it, there is no need to slander. Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so cheap and HCl has nothing to do with form of Cl used to sanitize swimming pools. I beg to differ HCl is one of the main means of getting free chlorine into pools. Compressed chlorine gas used to be the standard, but it is more costly to set up and dangerous to operators. HCl tubs are easier to maintain. ***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with to high of levels of Chlorine*** The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate. When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!! no, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about. besides, chlorine is not an oxidizer, chloramine is not either - oxygen is. Poor choice of words on my part, should have said it eats or reacts, rather than oxidizes. As for removing chlorines from water prior to adding to your tank, I do believe that to be the general consensus in this and many other forums. If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer - longer-lasting, and more benefits. eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for many plants and animals. you must be joking, crushed coral actually _increases_ pH, it always did, always will. I apologize, I was thinking about something else, corals will most definitely raise pH. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER Kris please, do not tell ppl what they should do if you don't know the subject. ghrom debate instead of slander, we are all still learning in some areas, and we all make mistakes from time to time. Kris |
#8
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Kris wrote in message news:XH8Bc.6611$7d2.1580@clgrps13...
I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so cheap and ***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with to high of levels of Chlorine*** Used to sanitize pools: sodium hypochlorite, aka BLEACH Used to lower pH of water: hydrochloric acid So as other people have already mentioned, you are incorrect. Somewhat scary that you work on public pools without this knowledge. And this whole HCl discussion is getting way out of hand. If you guys want to discuss this, please do it on a separate topic. I need an answer to my questions about CO2 injection please, and there hasn't been a single ON TOPIC post here yet. -Chris |
#9
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CO2, pH, and Snails
Interspersed comments...
|| Newbie to CO2 injection needs help. || || My setup: || || 10 gal. freshwater aquarium || 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon) a bit high on wattage, 1 23W would be ok, unless you're growing Ricca or glosso...hahaha.... || Natural gravel substrate || Assorted plants and fish || Ghost shrimp || Malaysian ramshorn snails || Aquaclear filter || DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter) || Airstone (used when lights are off) || Heater (75°F) || PMDD || || My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The || CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2 || using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never || use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be || able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't || currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty || high. You really should find out the kH and gH of your tank... they play a vital role in your CO2 production and pH problems... use Chuck Gadds excellent calculator or website to accurately find your CO2 levels, using your pH and kH http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm which is on this page http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm The more CO2 you get in your water, will lower your pH... using the acid, is out of my league... no pH down either.... || Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very || top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to || be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe || the first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH || below the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast || plant growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were || suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.) || || I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a || bunch of naked snails, so: || || 1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a || permanent basis? permanent? I'd say 6.8 but you will see calcification of the shells... you can add calcium bicarb to help I believe.. || 2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less || hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2 || already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because || of my current pH of 7.0-7.2? If you don't know your kH, you don't know your CO2 levels... you must know your CO2 levels to adjust your pH.. see how it's all sorta connected??? What you need to do is get a kH test kit... Use Chucks CO2 chart to see where you are... then figure out where you wanna be.... || And a few other questions: || || 3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd || do a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the || container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising || the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work || anymore. I acclimate the same way, just longer... add tank water to bag, ever 15m or so. after an hour, dump 'em... || 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after || removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took || water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable || chemical reaction? You probably killed your bio filter, bacteria doesnt' grow below 6.2-6.4 or so, which is probably why you had a crash... || 5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an || aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with || CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells? you 'could'... but at what cost?? You'd lose your bio filter, and if there was anything else in the tank, it'd be belly up too -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø || ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º is that better?? |
#10
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CO2, pH, and Snails
"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message ...
Interspersed comments... || 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon) a bit high on wattage, 1 23W would be ok, unless you're growing Ricca or glosso...hahaha.... I love the appearance of carpet plants such as glossostigma and microsword, and plan to try my hand at them as soon as I feel I've got the basics under "control". You really should find out the kH and gH of your tank... they play a vital role in your CO2 production and pH problems... use Chuck Gadds excellent calculator or website to accurately find your CO2 levels, using your pH and kH http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm which is on this page http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm Will obtain this test ASAP and work from there. || 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after || removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took || water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable || chemical reaction? You probably killed your bio filter, bacteria doesnt' grow below 6.2-6.4 or so, which is probably why you had a crash... I didn't think of that, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense. Decomposing organic material, including bacteria, would lower the pH. I just checked ammonia and nitrite and they're both undetectable, so it looks like the tank fortunately suffered no long-term effects. Thanks! -Chris |
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