#1   Report Post  
Old 14-10-2004, 10:23 PM
Dmitri Priimak
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sudden pH drop.

Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak

  #2   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 12:09 AM
Szaki
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As I heared adding CO2 can change the PH of the water, so you have to
monitor closly.
KH, pH, and CO2
The CO2 content of your aquarium is important if you are growing plants
(though check out a discussion on which plants need supplemental CO2, and
which may actually do worse with it!). But CO2 is also of interest to the
general aquarist because it is intimately related to the water's carbonate
hardness (KH) and pH; dissolved carbonates will raise both KH and pH, while
addition of CO2 will lower pH. Here are some charts showing the relationship
between CO2, pH and KH, along with a discussion of the actual chemical
reactions. You can read CO2 content indirectly by from the combined pH and
KH readings, from a good test kit, or try this simple metering method.

A few plants are able to take in carbon directly from dissolved calcium
carbonate (a procedure called biogenic decalcification by some). This
procedure in turn may cause your pH to rise.

You can easily make your own carbonate buffer from common chemicals. You can
use Calcium Chloride to increase GH without changing the alkalinity and pH.
Some suggest you can use hydrochloric acid in extreme moderation to reduce
the buffering capacity of your water (this article also discusses an
empirical result of CO2 content vs. KH).

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html



JS



"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...
Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak



  #3   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 03:04 AM
Dmitri Priimak
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well. I just measured KH and it is around 5.5 thus according to the
chart you gave me link to it means CO2 was more than 100 ppm. But that
does not seem to be possible since all I was doing was spreading fine
CO2 bubbles with power head. Could it be that there were to many
bubbles? Power head was providing suction from DIY yeast reactor.

Dmitri Priimak

Szaki wrote:

As I heared adding CO2 can change the PH of the water, so you have to
monitor closly.
KH, pH, and CO2
The CO2 content of your aquarium is important if you are growing plants
(though check out a discussion on which plants need supplemental CO2, and
which may actually do worse with it!). But CO2 is also of interest to the
general aquarist because it is intimately related to the water's carbonate
hardness (KH) and pH; dissolved carbonates will raise both KH and pH, while
addition of CO2 will lower pH. Here are some charts showing the relationship
between CO2, pH and KH, along with a discussion of the actual chemical
reactions. You can read CO2 content indirectly by from the combined pH and
KH readings, from a good test kit, or try this simple metering method.

A few plants are able to take in carbon directly from dissolved calcium
carbonate (a procedure called biogenic decalcification by some). This
procedure in turn may cause your pH to rise.

You can easily make your own carbonate buffer from common chemicals. You can
use Calcium Chloride to increase GH without changing the alkalinity and pH.
Some suggest you can use hydrochloric acid in extreme moderation to reduce
the buffering capacity of your water (this article also discusses an
empirical result of CO2 content vs. KH).

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html



JS



"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...

Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak

  #4   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 07:13 AM
Szaki
 
Posts: n/a
Default

KH 5.5 is very low. How you measured it? Is that in ppm? My test strip shows
120-180 ppm KH is ideal.
Once I read, should be 3-4 bubbles / minute CO2 is a good rate. Some people
construct simple regulator.

JS

"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...
Well. I just measured KH and it is around 5.5 thus according to the
chart you gave me link to it means CO2 was more than 100 ppm. But that
does not seem to be possible since all I was doing was spreading fine
CO2 bubbles with power head. Could it be that there were to many
bubbles? Power head was providing suction from DIY yeast reactor.

Dmitri Priimak

Szaki wrote:

As I heared adding CO2 can change the PH of the water, so you have to
monitor closly.
KH, pH, and CO2
The CO2 content of your aquarium is important if you are growing plants
(though check out a discussion on which plants need supplemental CO2,

and
which may actually do worse with it!). But CO2 is also of interest to

the
general aquarist because it is intimately related to the water's

carbonate
hardness (KH) and pH; dissolved carbonates will raise both KH and pH,

while
addition of CO2 will lower pH. Here are some charts showing the

relationship
between CO2, pH and KH, along with a discussion of the actual chemical
reactions. You can read CO2 content indirectly by from the combined pH

and
KH readings, from a good test kit, or try this simple metering method.

A few plants are able to take in carbon directly from dissolved calcium
carbonate (a procedure called biogenic decalcification by some). This
procedure in turn may cause your pH to rise.

You can easily make your own carbonate buffer from common chemicals. You

can
use Calcium Chloride to increase GH without changing the alkalinity and

pH.
Some suggest you can use hydrochloric acid in extreme moderation to

reduce
the buffering capacity of your water (this article also discusses an
empirical result of CO2 content vs. KH).

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html



JS



"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...

Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak



  #5   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 03:59 PM
Dmitri Priimak
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My 5.5 is in dH ( degrees of hardness ).
In ppm it will be 5.5*17.86=98.23 ppm
Your KH in dH will be is from 6.7 to 10 dH.

Well, I guess I saturated water with CO2 juts by bubbling it. My mistake
was to assume that not much of it would be absorbed in such a way. So,
my question is. How do you recommend to rise KH?

--
Dmitri Priimak

Szaki wrote:

KH 5.5 is very low. How you measured it? Is that in ppm? My test strip shows
120-180 ppm KH is ideal.
Once I read, should be 3-4 bubbles / minute CO2 is a good rate. Some people
construct simple regulator.

JS

"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...

Well. I just measured KH and it is around 5.5 thus according to the
chart you gave me link to it means CO2 was more than 100 ppm. But that
does not seem to be possible since all I was doing was spreading fine
CO2 bubbles with power head. Could it be that there were to many
bubbles? Power head was providing suction from DIY yeast reactor.

Dmitri Priimak

Szaki wrote:


As I heared adding CO2 can change the PH of the water, so you have to
monitor closly.
KH, pH, and CO2
The CO2 content of your aquarium is important if you are growing plants
(though check out a discussion on which plants need supplemental CO2,


and

which may actually do worse with it!). But CO2 is also of interest to


the

general aquarist because it is intimately related to the water's


carbonate

hardness (KH) and pH; dissolved carbonates will raise both KH and pH,


while

addition of CO2 will lower pH. Here are some charts showing the


relationship

between CO2, pH and KH, along with a discussion of the actual chemical
reactions. You can read CO2 content indirectly by from the combined pH


and

KH readings, from a good test kit, or try this simple metering method.

A few plants are able to take in carbon directly from dissolved calcium
carbonate (a procedure called biogenic decalcification by some). This
procedure in turn may cause your pH to rise.

You can easily make your own carbonate buffer from common chemicals. You


can

use Calcium Chloride to increase GH without changing the alkalinity and


pH.

Some suggest you can use hydrochloric acid in extreme moderation to


reduce

the buffering capacity of your water (this article also discusses an
empirical result of CO2 content vs. KH).

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html



JS



"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...


Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak






  #6   Report Post  
Old 15-10-2004, 10:52 PM
Brian S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just kind of a side question off of Dmitri's,

Does anyone know the 'quality' or quantity of actual Co2 produced by a yeast
system?

For example, I have been running a yeast system now for about two weeks.
When it bubbles in, it will bubble in at an average rate of about one bubble
per 7-12 seconds. However, it seems that the Co2 sits in the "bell"
container that I have fastened to the side with suction cups forever.

Now, I got this "bell" container in my Jungle Fizz Factory which also came
with 16 Co2 tablets. When I use one of the Co2 tablets, it will bubble in
and fill almost the entire "bell" container up with Co2. In a matter of
two-three hours, ALL of this Co2 is disolved into the water.

But, I let the yeast production fill up the "bell" container as the Co2
tablets did, then I un-hooked the yeast Co2 generator to conduct my "test".
I let it sit for over 24 hours and only about HALF of the so-called Co2 was
disolved into the water.

So, basically I am wondering if yeast also expels other gases other than
Co2.

Brian S.

"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...
Hi All.

I am somewhat new to this hobby. And today I made CO2 system with yeast
and was injecting bubbles with the power head and pH dropped from 7.2 to
6.2 withing about 4 hours. Luckily I don't have fish in the tank yet.
So, why did it drop so much? From what I read I did not expect to
dissolve much of CO2 by just bubbling it though water. Is there anything
wrong with my water? Is the hardness somehow related to it.

--
Dmitri Priimak



  #7   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 12:21 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian S." wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s52...

For example, I have been running a yeast system now for about two weeks.
When it bubbles in, it will bubble in at an average rate of about one bubble
per 7-12 seconds. However, it seems that the Co2 sits in the "bell"
container that I have fastened to the side with suction cups forever.

[...]
But, I let the yeast production fill up the "bell" container as the Co2
tablets did, then I un-hooked the yeast Co2 generator to conduct my "test".
I let it sit for over 24 hours and only about HALF of the so-called Co2 was
disolved into the water.

So, basically I am wondering if yeast also expels other gases other than
Co2.


Not that I know of. If there are any other gases, they'd make up only a tiny
fraction of the total. What is more likely, I suspect, is that you are seeing
air in your bell: when you initially set up the CO2 bottle, the air space above
the yeast mixture and the air in the tubing are, well, air. So, initially, your
yeast system will produce mostly air and, for a while, will produce a mixture
of CO2 and air. If you see your bell emptying only half way, that simply means
that about half of the gas you put in was air, and the other half was CO2.

If you let the yeast system run for a while (and keep the bottle and hoses
sealed,
so no air can get in), then empty out your bell and refill with what comes out
of the yeast system, I'd expect to see virtually all of the gas dissolve,
because
virtually all of the gas should be CO2. And CO2 cannot help but dissolve in
water, at least at the CO2 concentrations you need in a planted tank. I'm
not aware of any mechanism that could prevent CO2 from dissolving, unless
you saturate the water with CO2, at which point no more CO2 will dissolve.
(But, by the time you reach saturation point, all the fish will be long since
dead...)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #8   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 04:05 AM
Rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...
My 5.5 is in dH ( degrees of hardness ).
In ppm it will be 5.5*17.86=98.23 ppm
Your KH in dH will be is from 6.7 to 10 dH.

Well, I guess I saturated water with CO2 juts by bubbling it. My mistake
was to assume that not much of it would be absorbed in such a way. So,
my question is. How do you recommend to rise KH?

--
Dmitri Priimak

one of the problems with DIY CO2 systems is the inconsistency of the amount
of gas and PH swings. When you first mix up the batch it produces at a high
rate which slowly diminishes until it runs out. If you use DIY you need two
bottles and alternate them so that you can keep your levels reasonably in
the ball park. I don't think at about 100 PPM that there is any need to
raise your KH which in turn will raise your PH. I would shoot for about
30ppm of CO2 which should mean that your PH would need to be around 6.9 or
7.0. In my planted tank my KH is lower than yours but my PH is higher.

Rick


  #9   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 04:45 AM
Brian S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the idea Michi.

Actually, I performed this test about one week after the Co2 generator was
up and running. I had thought about the oxygen at the top of the bottle
getting into the "bell" so that is why I tried the experiment after it was
setup for a week.

Maybe there is something else in these Co2 tablets that cause it to disolve
in the water faster...

Brian S.

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
"Brian S." wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s52...

For example, I have been running a yeast system now for about two weeks.
When it bubbles in, it will bubble in at an average rate of about one

bubble
per 7-12 seconds. However, it seems that the Co2 sits in the "bell"
container that I have fastened to the side with suction cups forever.

[...]
But, I let the yeast production fill up the "bell" container as the Co2
tablets did, then I un-hooked the yeast Co2 generator to conduct my

"test".
I let it sit for over 24 hours and only about HALF of the so-called Co2

was
disolved into the water.

So, basically I am wondering if yeast also expels other gases other than
Co2.


Not that I know of. If there are any other gases, they'd make up only a

tiny
fraction of the total. What is more likely, I suspect, is that you are

seeing
air in your bell: when you initially set up the CO2 bottle, the air space

above
the yeast mixture and the air in the tubing are, well, air. So, initially,

your
yeast system will produce mostly air and, for a while, will produce a

mixture
of CO2 and air. If you see your bell emptying only half way, that simply

means
that about half of the gas you put in was air, and the other half was CO2.

If you let the yeast system run for a while (and keep the bottle and hoses
sealed,
so no air can get in), then empty out your bell and refill with what comes

out
of the yeast system, I'd expect to see virtually all of the gas dissolve,
because
virtually all of the gas should be CO2. And CO2 cannot help but dissolve

in
water, at least at the CO2 concentrations you need in a planted tank. I'm
not aware of any mechanism that could prevent CO2 from dissolving, unless
you saturate the water with CO2, at which point no more CO2 will dissolve.
(But, by the time you reach saturation point, all the fish will be long

since
dead...)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com



  #10   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 07:09 AM
Dmitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Rick wrote:
"Dmitri Priimak" wrote in message
...

My 5.5 is in dH ( degrees of hardness ).
In ppm it will be 5.5*17.86=98.23 ppm
Your KH in dH will be is from 6.7 to 10 dH.

Well, I guess I saturated water with CO2 juts by bubbling it. My mistake
was to assume that not much of it would be absorbed in such a way. So,
my question is. How do you recommend to rise KH?

--
Dmitri Priimak


one of the problems with DIY CO2 systems is the inconsistency of the amount
of gas and PH swings. When you first mix up the batch it produces at a high
rate which slowly diminishes until it runs out. If you use DIY you need two
bottles and alternate them so that you can keep your levels reasonably in
the ball park. I don't think at about 100 PPM that there is any need to
raise your KH which in turn will raise your PH. I would shoot for about
30ppm of CO2 which should mean that your PH would need to be around 6.9 or
7.0. In my planted tank my KH is lower than yours but my PH is higher.

Rick


I see. One thing I want to mention is that my pH in tap water was around
above 8 to lower it I used Seachem "Liquid Acid Buffer" which brought my
pH down to about 7.2. This suppose to skew tables which indicate CO2
level isn't? And by the way do you know exactly how it (Liquid Acid
Buffer) works? It is written on a bottle "Converts alkalinity (KH) into
CO2". Does is it mean that it brakes CO3 and HCO3 into CO2 and whatever
left over from it? If so what chemical is used in that "Liquid Acid Buffer"?

--
Dmitri Priimak



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