Hello all

I have been getting much useful information from reading the posts here.
Thanks.

My small planted tank (60cm long) has never really taken off and I don't
seem to be getting the growth from my plants that I would like. I have high
nitrates in my tap water and would like a vigorous planting to help reduce
these. The tap water is also very hard.

About a year ago I planted Vallis, a small Anubias, Java fern, an
Aponogeton and a small crypt. The Anubias withered away but the rest have
managed to survive more or less. The Vallis continues to grow, but the
leaves get a film of algae as they age, the Java fern has grown well and I
have propagated this around by tying it to small rocks with fishing line,
however the leaves do get brown spots on as they get older. The Aponogeton
is continuing to put out leaves, regularly but not frequently, as do the
crypts. I added a new Anubias nana about a week ago, and a Hygro which I
hope will grow fast and out-compete the algae.

The tank has 2x18'' flourescent tubes lighting it and gets very little
natural light. It has an internal Fluval filter that returns the water
across the surface of the tank. The substrate is fairly coarse gravel
(probably about 3-4 mm) and I added half a box of First Layer to it a couple
of weeks ago and did what I could to mix it in with the existing gravel. 6
months ago I added a Hagen CO2 generator. Each week I add a cap full of
aquatic plant food with the water change.

I periodically rub the leaves to remove some of the green fur-like algae and
perform approx. 30% water changes once a week. The tank contains 3 small
Bosemani rainbow fish, a krib and a clown pleco (I know these fish are too
big for this size tank, I was recommended them by the staff at the local
fish shop who knew my set-up, and by the time I realized what the final size
of the fish would be it was too late to take them back).

I do test the water, but not frequently, and not for micronutrients. Last
check the ammonia and nitrates were 0 and nitrates about 60 - 70. This is
high but the water straight out of the tap gets a reading of about 40 so my
water changes are not that effective.

I was thinking about excavating around the plants in the substrate and
filling the holes with neat First Layer. Is this a good idea or can you
overdose on that stuff? I'm really looking for general suggestions that will
get things growing fast.

Sorry for the length of the post, if you got this far, thank-you!

-Jon

Fallout wrote:
Hello all

I have been getting much useful information from reading the posts here.
Thanks.

My small planted tank (60cm long) has never really taken off and I don't
seem to be getting the growth from my plants that I would like. I have high
nitrates in my tap water and would like a vigorous planting to help reduce
these. The tap water is also very hard.

About a year ago I planted Vallis, a small Anubias, Java fern, an
Aponogeton and a small crypt. The Anubias withered away but the rest have
managed to survive more or less. The Vallis continues to grow, but the
leaves get a film of algae as they age, the Java fern has grown well and I
have propagated this around by tying it to small rocks with fishing line,
however the leaves do get brown spots on as they get older. The Aponogeton
is continuing to put out leaves, regularly but not frequently, as do the
crypts. I added a new Anubias nana about a week ago, and a Hygro which I
hope will grow fast and out-compete the algae.

The tank has 2x18'' flourescent tubes lighting it and gets very little
natural light. It has an internal Fluval filter that returns the water
across the surface of the tank. The substrate is fairly coarse gravel
(probably about 3-4 mm) and I added half a box of First Layer to it a couple
of weeks ago and did what I could to mix it in with the existing gravel. 6
months ago I added a Hagen CO2 generator. Each week I add a cap full of
aquatic plant food with the water change.

I periodically rub the leaves to remove some of the green fur-like algae and
perform approx. 30% water changes once a week. The tank contains 3 small
Bosemani rainbow fish, a krib and a clown pleco (I know these fish are too
big for this size tank, I was recommended them by the staff at the local
fish shop who knew my set-up, and by the time I realized what the final size
of the fish would be it was too late to take them back).

I do test the water, but not frequently, and not for micronutrients. Last
check the ammonia and nitrates were 0 and nitrates about 60 - 70. This is
high but the water straight out of the tap gets a reading of about 40 so my
water changes are not that effective.

I was thinking about excavating around the plants in the substrate and
filling the holes with neat First Layer. Is this a good idea or can you
overdose on that stuff? I'm really looking for general suggestions that will
get things growing fast.

Sorry for the length of the post, if you got this far, thank-you!

-Jon


I don't think your tank has enough light or plants. Can you afford a
power compact fixture? If your tank is like a US 20 gallon tall, you
probably want at least 50W-60W of light rather than the 30W you
currently have. More plants will help with the nitrates and algae if
they have enough light to grow well. If you can't get a new fixture, at
least make sure any T8 or T12 bulbs you're using are under 6 months old,
or designed for constant light output like Tritons.

Also, Otocinclus will help eat soft green algae off of plant leaves, as
will "Amano" shrimp (Caridina spp.). Both stay an appropriate size for
the tank. Clown plecs are not great algae eaters, unfortunately.

As for ferts, what are you dosing? You may need quite a bit of potash
to help the plants use all that nitrate.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
...

I don't think your tank has enough light or plants. Can you afford a
power compact fixture? If your tank is like a US 20 gallon tall, you
probably want at least 50W-60W of light rather than the 30W you currently
have.

Is power compact the same as T5? I found these;
http://www.fishathome.co.uk/lighting...controller.htm
and was thinking of the T5 Twin Controller 24-39w. Would these be suitable?

More plants will help with the nitrates and algae if they have enough
light to grow well.

Can you recommend any compact but vigorous plants I can fill it the gaps
with? There are several vallis plants, so it may not be as bare as it
sounded. I may post some links to photos if this would be useful.

If you can't get a new fixture, at least make sure any T8 or T12 bulbs
you're using are under 6 months old, or designed for constant light output
like Tritons.

They are Tritons if I remember right, but the oldest must over a year old by
now. If I don't get a new lighting system I will replace them in 2 stages.

Also, Otocinclus will help eat soft green algae off of plant leaves, as
will "Amano" shrimp (Caridina spp.). Both stay an appropriate size for
the tank. Clown plecs are not great algae eaters, unfortunately.

The clown does keep the bogwood clean, he never touches the plant leaves
though unfortunately. I'm loath to add more fish until I can re-house the
old ones, and as they are now probably stunted due to nitrates/lack of swim
room, I don't think anyone else will want them. I would really just like to
keep tiny tetras, small corys and the like so I dont have to add much food
to the water.

The shrimp sounds very interesting though, I'll have read up on that one.

As for ferts, what are you dosing? You may need quite a bit of potash to
help the plants use all that nitrate.

I am using some proprietory brand whose name eludes me, added once a week in
the recommended dose at water changes. I know it contains iron, but it is
less specific about what other ingredients it contains. Maybe not much. I'd
like to try pmdd but never managed to locate the ingredients.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Many thanks for your reply.

-Jon

Fallout wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
...


I don't think your tank has enough light or plants. Can you afford a
power compact fixture? If your tank is like a US 20 gallon tall, you
probably want at least 50W-60W of light rather than the 30W you currently
have.


Is power compact the same as T5? I found these;
http://www.fishathome.co.uk/lighting...controller.htm
and was thinking of the T5 Twin Controller 24-39w. Would these be suitable?

I found that page is a bit confusing. If the twin controller runs two
24-39 watt bulbs, it would be a great fixture.

More plants will help with the nitrates and algae if they have enough
light to grow well.


Can you recommend any compact but vigorous plants I can fill it the gaps
with? There are several vallis plants, so it may not be as bare as it
sounded. I may post some links to photos if this would be useful.

With your current lighting, you might try Rotala indica or rotundifolia,
Java moss (Vesicularia dubyana), or smaller swordplants like Echinodorus
"Ozelot" or Echonodorus parviflorus "Tropica". Java moss grows quite
quickly in my hard water and keeps my 2g betta tank nitrate free.

With more light, try Limnophila, Water sprite (Ceratopteras cornuta),
any Hygrophila spp. (all are tall and quite vigorous), Baby's tears
(Hemianthus micranthemoides - great for smaller tanks), Alternantheria
reinckii (also tall but grows slowly), or Echinodorus tenellus (pygmy
chained sword). There are many other suitable plants for higher light -
those are just some attractive, smaller ones. Water sprite and
Hygrophila polysperma are particularly vigorous growers for me.

If you can't get a new fixture, at least make sure any T8 or T12 bulbs
you're using are under 6 months old, or designed for constant light output
like Tritons.


They are Tritons if I remember right, but the oldest must over a year old by
now. If I don't get a new lighting system I will replace them in 2 stages.

No sense replacing Tritons. They keep a very good output until they
die. I really like those bulbs. See if a polished reflector is
available for your lighting fixture instead. You could also have a
mirror cut as a backdrop to the tank to reflect light back in to the plants.

Also, Otocinclus will help eat soft green algae off of plant leaves, as
will "Amano" shrimp (Caridina spp.). Both stay an appropriate size for
the tank. Clown plecs are not great algae eaters, unfortunately.


The clown does keep the bogwood clean, he never touches the plant leaves
though unfortunately. I'm loath to add more fish until I can re-house the
old ones, and as they are now probably stunted due to nitrates/lack of swim
room, I don't think anyone else will want them. I would really just like to
keep tiny tetras, small corys and the like so I dont have to add much food
to the water.

The shrimp sounds very interesting though, I'll have read up on that one.

If you increase lighting, you will almost certainly need some algae
eating fish. Controlling algae with plants and fertilizers alone can be
done, but it will be harder with your high nitrates. I understand your
reluctance to add more fish to the setup, though. Shrimp might be a
good way to go. Mine hang out on plant leaves all the time eating soft
green algae. My favorites are the little bumblebee shrimp I found at
LFS one day.

As for ferts, what are you dosing? You may need quite a bit of potash to
help the plants use all that nitrate.


I am using some proprietory brand whose name eludes me, added once a week in
the recommended dose at water changes. I know it contains iron, but it is
less specific about what other ingredients it contains. Maybe not much. I'd
like to try pmdd but never managed to locate the ingredients.

You can get Tropica Master Grow from the same place that sells the
lighting you're considering.
http://www.fishathome.co.uk/watertre...mastergrow.htm It's a
great fertilizer. www.gregwatson.com sells PMDD ingredients from
Canada, but I don't know what shipping would cost.

Also, what's your pH? If it's high, you can use Seachem Acid Buffer to
lower KH and pH to make more C02 and trace elements available to the
plants. http://tinyurl.com/866ua That should help a bit too.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...

With your current lighting, you might try Rotala indica or rotundifolia,
Java moss (Vesicularia dubyana), or smaller swordplants like Echinodorus
"Ozelot" or Echonodorus parviflorus "Tropica". Java moss grows quite
quickly in my hard water and keeps my 2g betta tank nitrate free.

With more light, try Limnophila, Water sprite (Ceratopteras cornuta), any
Hygrophila spp. (all are tall and quite vigorous), Baby's tears
(Hemianthus micranthemoides - great for smaller tanks), Alternantheria
reinckii (also tall but grows slowly), or Echinodorus tenellus (pygmy
chained sword). There are many other suitable plants for higher light -
those are just some attractive, smaller ones. Water sprite and Hygrophila
polysperma are particularly vigorous growers for me.

Thanks for the suggestions. I shall keep an eye out for these at the LFS.

If you can't get a new fixture, at least make sure any T8 or T12 bulbs
you're using are under 6 months old, or designed for constant light
output like Tritons.


They are Tritons if I remember right, but the oldest must over a year old
by now. If I don't get a new lighting system I will replace them in 2
stages.

No sense replacing Tritons. They keep a very good output until they die.
I really like those bulbs. See if a polished reflector is available for
your lighting fixture instead. You could also have a mirror cut as a
backdrop to the tank to reflect light back in to the plants.

After I actually looked under the hood I have 2x15W Arcadia tubes. I have
used Tritons in the past and remember liking them. I will probably replace
the Arcadias with Tritons if T5's proove to be pricey.

The volume of water in the tank I worked out to be approx. 13 UK Gallons
giving me roughly 2.3 Watts/Gallon (UK). However, I added the second tube
fixture myself and I think at least some of the extra light is lost due to
the architecture of the hood. There is no room for metalic reflectors, but
the inside is white; well, it was after I cleaned it.

As for the back, that is currently matt black, I hadn't thought about the
light I was loosing there. I think a couple of 12"x12" mirrored bathroom
tiles as a backdrop might do the trick. Presumably I will then need to add
cleaning the back glass to the maintenance program. It doesn't currently get
cleaned.

As for ferts, what are you dosing? You may need quite a bit of potash to
help the plants use all that nitrate.

You can get Tropica Master Grow from the same place that sells the
lighting you're considering.
http://www.fishathome.co.uk/watertre...mastergrow.htm It's a
great fertilizer. www.gregwatson.com sells PMDD ingredients from Canada,
but I don't know what shipping would cost.

I'm actually using Nutrafin PlantGro. It contains Iron, Manganese, Zinc
and -Nitrogen-. So I appear to be adding more Nitrogen and no potash. I just
bought a big bottle of it too.

Also, what's your pH? If it's high, you can use Seachem Acid Buffer to
lower KH and pH to make more C02 and trace elements available to the
plants. http://tinyurl.com/866ua That should help a bit too.

My pH is about 7.8 - 8.0 straight after the lights come on, when, presumably
it should be at it's lowest with the CO2 on all night. The test kit is
pretty out of date but it sounds about right. I hadn't considered adding a
buffer, I was hoping the CO2 would have more of an effect on lowering the
pH, but I guess the effectiveness of yeast generated CO2 is pretty limited.
I would love to go for RO water but that is definately overkill for such a
small tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Thanks again for all the advice. It has given me much food for thought.

-Jon

Fallout wrote:

snip

As for ferts, what are you dosing? You may need quite a bit of potash to
help the plants use all that nitrate.


You can get Tropica Master Grow from the same place that sells the
lighting you're considering.
http://www.fishathome.co.uk/watertre...mastergrow.htm It's a
great fertilizer. www.gregwatson.com sells PMDD ingredients from Canada,
but I don't know what shipping would cost.


I'm actually using Nutrafin PlantGro. It contains Iron, Manganese, Zinc
and -Nitrogen-. So I appear to be adding more Nitrogen and no potash. I just
bought a big bottle of it too.


Oh, bummer. What an odd choice of ingredients for a fertilizer designed
for fishtanks. I think you will find that dosing a fertilizer with
potash makes a huge difference in the vigor of your plants. In fact,
that's probably the first thing to fix. I'd do that even before
worrying about the lighting.

Also, what's your pH? If it's high, you can use Seachem Acid Buffer to
lower KH and pH to make more C02 and trace elements available to the
plants. http://tinyurl.com/866ua That should help a bit too.


My pH is about 7.8 - 8.0 straight after the lights come on, when, presumably
it should be at it's lowest with the CO2 on all night. The test kit is
pretty out of date but it sounds about right. I hadn't considered adding a
buffer, I was hoping the CO2 would have more of an effect on lowering the
pH, but I guess the effectiveness of yeast generated CO2 is pretty limited.
I would love to go for RO water but that is definately overkill for such a
small tank.

Yeast generated CO2 works fine in tanks of that size. I've used it on a
29 US gallon tank with water of KH 4 and gotten acceptable levels.
Your main problem is the high pH/KH of your water. CO2 doesn't dissolve
very well or shift pH much in highly alkaline water, so you would have
trouble with any CO2 system. BTW, do you have vending machines at the
supermarket for drinking water? I get UV/carbon/RO filtered water by
the gallon for 25 cents to mix with my tap water for my little planted
discus tank. I understand exactly what you mean when you say getting an
RO unit is overkill because all of my tanks are small too.

You might switch to Seachem's Flourish Excel as a carbon source if you
prefer not to buffer or soften your water. It's working very nicely in
my tanks, and my water is much like yours, with pH 7.8-8.0 from the tap.
I only soften the water in the one discus tank. Your plants will
still not have optimal nutrient uptake at a high pH, but not everything
has to be ideal for a beautiful tank.

Thanks again for all the advice. It has given me much food for thought.

-Jon

You're welcome. Let me and anyyone else who's reading know how things
turn out in a few months. :-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com