And I'm sure that I'm entitled to state my opinion. The fact that he is in business
is
no endorsement that he is giving out good advice. His theories on dwarfing trees is
way out of line with common knowledge in universities and research stations. Just
check the web on how much research is put into dwarf rootstocks and how many
huge numbers of them are being used by fruit growers throughout the world. I have
been growing dwarf fruit trees for almost 20 years and have not seen any of the
problems he claims are inherent in their nature. It's true a dwarf tree may only
live to
be twenty years or more, whereas a standard tree can live much longer. What he fails
to mention is that standard trees are much more difficult to maintain and harvest,
and take longer to yield their first crop. By the way, what is your expertise in
these
matters or are you just defending the poor guy?

Sherwin



Bill wrote:

In article , says...
I think this Dave Wilson Nursury is way out of line with their recommendations.
Dwarfing rootstock IS the best way to control tree size. Excessive pruning as
he
suggests results in a butchered tree with no shape and much retarded fruit
production.

Sherwin D.


I'm sure your opinion has him worried to death. Then again, he's running a
succesful nursery, and your just running your mouth.

Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

Unless that huge apple tree (they can easily get to be 30 feet, or more) has
some very good tasting fruit, I would pull it out and replace it with dwarfs.
You probably
don't even have a ladder tall enough to get at the top of the tree. If the
fruit is special
to you, take a branch off and graft it to a dwarfing rootstock.

Sherwin D.

Zootal wrote:

Thanks to all that responded. My trees were purchased at costco, and consist
of 2 cherries, 2 pears, 2 apricots, 2 peaches, 3 apples, 2 plums...and I'm
missing something but there were 13-14 trees, all semi-dwarf. I read
somewhere to put them 10-15 feet apart also, so I settled on 12 feet because
they fit better into the space I wanted to put them - I have a *huge* apple
tree that dominates a good chunk of my yard.

BTW, how big can apple trees get? This thing is huge - trunk about 3 feet
diameter, branch spread about...um...30+ feet or so. And each year it drops
a bazillion apples. Which cause me to ask - what was I thinking when I
bought 3 more apple trees? :P

"Dwayne" wrote in message
...
I ordered 10 different dwarf/semi-dwarf fruit trees after moving here (4
apples, 2 pears, 2 peaches,and two cherries), and the instructions said put
them 10 to 15 ft apart. If they try to bother each other, you can always
prune them in a way to control how they grow. I think your spacing will be
fine.

Dwayne

"Zootal" nousenetspam at dead ice dot us wrote in message
...
I have about a dozen "semi-dwarf" fruit trees, each planted 12 feet apart.
Does anyone have experience with such trees? Did I plant them too close
together?

Also, when initially planting them as bare root trees, how severely
should they be pruned? And once they start to bud out, is it too late to
prune them?

Plus it ruins the looks of trees, like apples. Peaches may be an exception
to a heavy
initial pruning of the leader to get the tree to sprawl more to aid in
fruit yield.

Sherwin

" wrote:

Just because he's running a nursery, and has a busy webpage, DOES NOT
mean he know what is "right". I've read a lot of bad suggestions on
DAVE'S page. Sounds like Bill is running his mouth too. (so am I ...)
It means he's good at marketing.

Severly pruning a tree, repeatedly, will lower the production, and be
LOTS of extra work.

bahB

Bill wrote:

In article om,
says...
Just because he's running a nursery, and has a busy webpage, DOES NOT
mean he know what is "right".

OTOH, if he gave out bad infirmation, he probably not stay in business
long.

There are a lot of shady used car salesmen selling junkers out there who
are
quite successful. Staying in business is not a recommendation.



I've read a lot of bad suggestions on
DAVE'S page.

In your opinion.

Sounds like Bill is running his mouth too.

Not yet.

(so am I ...}
It means he's good at marketing.

Severly pruning a tree, repeatedly, will lower the production,

Yes,

and be
LOTS of extra work.

No.

A full size tree will not fit into most backyard orchards. If it does,
there is a lot of
work to keep it trimmed down to size. That means jumping up and down a
ladder
to trim it, spray it, harvest it, etc.




bahB


Perhaps you should reread the article again, It's for back yard gardening,
not farming.

I read the article and this guy is way out of line.



Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

Ingrid,

I agree with most of what you say, but I think putting two fruit trees in the same hole
is not a good idea. They will compete with each other for resources and generally
get in each other's way. Biennial producing trees are not good. You should do some
aggressive thinning to get them back on an annual schedule.

Sherwin

wrote:

you are fine. in fact, Bay Laurel has a good read on back yard orchards and that
includes planting 2 or more small trees in the SAME HOLE.
I dont prune them at all when planting unless there is a crossing or broken branch.
the basic idea of semi dwarf or fully dwarf trees is to prune IN SUMMER when what you
cut off will not stimulate new growth or suckers AND will prevent growth in the
direction of the branch that was cut.
http://weloveteaching.com/landscape/...d/orchard.html
the best part about cutting in summer to control height is that you KNOW which
branches are producing fruit and where the fruit spurs are. I have had a problem
with over setting of fruit and find it hard to thin the fruit off. I keep waiting
for natural "fruit drop" and then never get around to thinning. I now have trees
produce every other year. and I let them grow out of control one year. this last
summer I seriously headed them back. I cannot believe how vigorous they are in those
100 gallon rubbermaid pots. Ingrid

"Zootal" nousenetspam at dead ice dot us wrote:

I have about a dozen "semi-dwarf" fruit trees, each planted 12 feet apart.
Does anyone have experience with such trees? Did I plant them too close
together?

Also, when initially planting them as bare root trees, how severely should
they be pruned? And once they start to bud out, is it too late to prune
them?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

In article , says...
And I'm sure that I'm entitled to state my opinion. The fact that he is in business
is
no endorsement that he is giving out good advice. His theories on dwarfing trees is
way out of line with common knowledge in universities and research stations. Just
check the web on how much research is put into dwarf rootstocks and how many
huge numbers of them are being used by fruit growers throughout the world. I have
been growing dwarf fruit trees for almost 20 years and have not seen any of the
problems he claims are inherent in their nature. It's true a dwarf tree may only
live to
be twenty years or more, whereas a standard tree can live much longer. What he fails
to mention is that standard trees are much more difficult to maintain and harvest,
and take longer to yield their first crop. By the way, what is your expertise in
these
matters or are you just defending the poor guy?

Sherwin




Same as yours. I have grown and am presently growing semidwarf and dwarf
fruit trees. I've tried his method; it works. Do the trees compete for
resources? Yes. Does pruning them as he suggests keep there production down?
Yes. The whole Idea is to keep the trees small and managable with a
manageable amount of fruit. If you have a small yard and want a variety of
fruit without having to throw or give most of away because you can't use it
this is one way to go. If you've got a couple of acres, by all means, spread
them out. Just be prepared for all the fruit you're going to get.

The OP was asking if he had enough spacing for his trees. I posted a
reference to show that trees can be planted closer than the spacing he had
used. Merely that. Last I looked, universities and research stations were
much more interested in helping farmers and agribusiness that they were the
backyard gardener. You probably don't think much of square foot gardening
either, do you?


Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

" wrote in
ps.com:

Just because he's running a nursery, and has a busy
webpage, DOES NOT mean he know what is "right". I've read
a lot of bad suggestions on DAVE'S page. Sounds like Bill
is running his mouth too. (so am I ...)
It means he's good at marketing.

Severly pruning a tree, repeatedly, will lower the
production, and be LOTS of extra work.

if that were true, espailering wouldn't work... and
espailered fruit trees have been around for centuries because
it *does* work. no, you can't go pruning off all the fruiting
branches, but severe pruning as on that page will allow
production in small areas. yes, it's a lot of work learning
the proper techniques, but if tou want an orchard & only
*have* a tiny yard, it *will* work. you learn what you need to
get the results you want. isn't that how most things in life
work?
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

espalier is not used for commercial production. it is decorative and production IS
severely cut down. Ingrid

" wrote in
Severly pruning a tree, repeatedly, will lower the
production, and be LOTS of extra work.

enigma wrote:
if that were true, espailering wouldn't work...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

The tree has been pruned so that it has 8 - 10 big branches that sprawl
outwards, starting at about 8-10 feet off of the ground. I can't reach
anything on the tree without a ladder. I actually like the tree, I think
I'll let it grow this year and see how it produces - I bought the property a
few months ago, and don't know how the tree will grow or produce. I'll see
if I can find some pics of the tree, maybe some here can look at it and
offer their opinion. It's quite old, the bark has a lot of woodpecker holes
in it and is peeling in places. I'm not sure of the overall health of the
tree.


"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Unless that huge apple tree (they can easily get to be 30 feet, or more)
has
some very good tasting fruit, I would pull it out and replace it with
dwarfs.
You probably
don't even have a ladder tall enough to get at the top of the tree. If
the
fruit is special
to you, take a branch off and graft it to a dwarfing rootstock.

Sherwin D.

Zootal wrote:

Thanks to all that responded. My trees were purchased at costco, and
consist
of 2 cherries, 2 pears, 2 apricots, 2 peaches, 3 apples, 2 plums...and
I'm
missing something but there were 13-14 trees, all semi-dwarf. I read
somewhere to put them 10-15 feet apart also, so I settled on 12 feet
because
they fit better into the space I wanted to put them - I have a *huge*
apple
tree that dominates a good chunk of my yard.

BTW, how big can apple trees get? This thing is huge - trunk about 3 feet
diameter, branch spread about...um...30+ feet or so. And each year it
drops
a bazillion apples. Which cause me to ask - what was I thinking when I
bought 3 more apple trees? :P

"Dwayne" wrote in message
...
I ordered 10 different dwarf/semi-dwarf fruit trees after moving here (4
apples, 2 pears, 2 peaches,and two cherries), and the instructions said
put
them 10 to 15 ft apart. If they try to bother each other, you can
always
prune them in a way to control how they grow. I think your spacing will
be
fine.

Dwayne

"Zootal" nousenetspam at dead ice dot us wrote in message
...
I have about a dozen "semi-dwarf" fruit trees, each planted 12 feet
apart.
Does anyone have experience with such trees? Did I plant them too close
together?

Also, when initially planting them as bare root trees, how severely
should they be pruned? And once they start to bud out, is it too late
to
prune them?

In article , says...


Bill wrote:

In article om,
says...
Just because he's running a nursery, and has a busy webpage, DOES NOT
mean he know what is "right".

OTOH, if he gave out bad infirmation, he probably not stay in business
long.

There are a lot of shady used car salesmen selling junkers out there who
are
quite successful. Staying in business is not a recommendation.



Really? And your words of wisdom are so much more to be believed than a
company who's been in the nursery business since 1938? Why?

Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

Bill wrote:

In article , says...
And I'm sure that I'm entitled to state my opinion. The fact that he is in business
is
no endorsement that he is giving out good advice. His theories on dwarfing trees is
way out of line with common knowledge in universities and research stations. Just
check the web on how much research is put into dwarf rootstocks and how many
huge numbers of them are being used by fruit growers throughout the world. I have
been growing dwarf fruit trees for almost 20 years and have not seen any of the
problems he claims are inherent in their nature. It's true a dwarf tree may only
live to
be twenty years or more, whereas a standard tree can live much longer. What he fails
to mention is that standard trees are much more difficult to maintain and harvest,
and take longer to yield their first crop. By the way, what is your expertise in
these
matters or are you just defending the poor guy?

Sherwin




Same as yours. I have grown and am presently growing semidwarf and dwarf
fruit trees. I've tried his method; it works. Do the trees compete for
resources? Yes. Does pruning them as he suggests keep there production down?
Yes. The whole Idea is to keep the trees small and managable with a
manageable amount of fruit. If you have a small yard and want a variety of
fruit without having to throw or give most of away because you can't use it
this is one way to go. If you've got a couple of acres, by all means, spread
them out. Just be prepared for all the fruit you're going to get.

The OP was asking if he had enough spacing for his trees. I posted a
reference to show that trees can be planted closer than the spacing he had
used.

Not by pruning, but by selecting the proper rootstock.

Merely that. Last I looked, universities and research stations were
much more interested in helping farmers and agribusiness that they were the
backyard gardener.

In this case, the technology helps both for somewhat different purposes.
The ease of maintenance helps the commercial people as much as the home
gardener. The two groups need not be at cross purposes.

You probably don't think much of square foot gardening
either, do you?

You are trying very hard to stereotype me. I do practice square foot gardening,
but I fail to see the connection here. We both agree on the benefits of using
dwarfing rootstock, but you were defending this Dave Wilson Nursery who
thinks summer pruning is the only way to control tree spacing in the home
orchard. A friend of mine has a small city lot and has almost 100 dwarf trees
on M27 rootstock in his backyard (they are only about 6 feet tall). Check
out his backyard on www.midfex.org. Dave Wilson Nursery
even lists the characteristics of M27 rootstock and comes to this strange
conclusion anyways. Summer pruning is mainly used to open up a tree and rid
it of suckers and crossed branches, not size control. Severly pruning a fruit
tree will produce an ugly tree and cut down yield appreciably. Fruit production
should be controlled by thinning, not pruning.

Sherwin



Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

I still think the nursery is giving out poor advice.

Their 'Backyard Orchard Culture' lays out things which do not make sense. If I
wanted a small tree, why would I buy a big growth tree and chop the hell out of
it?
That's why there are rootstocks that produce trees as small as 6 feet high, and
even
this nursery sells them. Planting more than one tree in a hole is another
abomination
that results in several trees competing with each other and possibly strangling
themselves
to death. My knowledge base is not just my own, but is somewhat of a consensus
of the opinion of the many members of the fruit growing club of which I am an
active
member. This nursery may sell good trees and rootstocks, but they are giving the
wrong messages on how to plant and maintain them.

Sherwin

Bill wrote:

In article , says...


Bill wrote:

In article om,
says...
Just because he's running a nursery, and has a busy webpage, DOES NOT
mean he know what is "right".

OTOH, if he gave out bad infirmation, he probably not stay in business
long.

There are a lot of shady used car salesmen selling junkers out there who
are
quite successful. Staying in business is not a recommendation.



Really? And your words of wisdom are so much more to be believed than a
company who's been in the nursery business since 1938? Why?

Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

In article , says...


Bill wrote:

In article , says...
And I'm sure that I'm entitled to state my opinion. The fact that he is in business
is
no endorsement that he is giving out good advice. His theories on dwarfing trees is
way out of line with common knowledge in universities and research stations. Just
check the web on how much research is put into dwarf rootstocks and how many
huge numbers of them are being used by fruit growers throughout the world. I have
been growing dwarf fruit trees for almost 20 years and have not seen any of the
problems he claims are inherent in their nature. It's true a dwarf tree may only
live to
be twenty years or more, whereas a standard tree can live much longer. What he fails
to mention is that standard trees are much more difficult to maintain and harvest,
and take longer to yield their first crop. By the way, what is your expertise in
these
matters or are you just defending the poor guy?

Sherwin




Same as yours. I have grown and am presently growing semidwarf and dwarf
fruit trees. I've tried his method; it works. Do the trees compete for
resources? Yes. Does pruning them as he suggests keep there production down?
Yes. The whole Idea is to keep the trees small and managable with a
manageable amount of fruit. If you have a small yard and want a variety of
fruit without having to throw or give most of away because you can't use it
this is one way to go. If you've got a couple of acres, by all means, spread
them out. Just be prepared for all the fruit you're going to get.

The OP was asking if he had enough spacing for his trees. I posted a
reference to show that trees can be planted closer than the spacing he had
used.

Not by pruning, but by selecting the proper rootstock.

Proper root stock helps, you still have to prune to maintain the size you
want.



Merely that. Last I looked, universities and research stations were
much more interested in helping farmers and agribusiness that they were the
backyard gardener.

In this case, the technology helps both for somewhat different purposes.
The ease of maintenance helps the commercial people as much as the home
gardener. The two groups need not be at cross purposes.

You probably don't think much of square foot gardening
either, do you?

You are trying very hard to stereotype me. I do practice square foot gardening,
but I fail to see the connection here. We both agree on the benefits of using
dwarfing rootstock, but you were defending this Dave Wilson Nursery who
thinks summer pruning is the only way to control tree spacing in the home
orchard. A friend of mine has a small city lot and has almost 100 dwarf trees
on M27 rootstock in his backyard (they are only about 6 feet tall). Check
out his backyard on www.midfex.org. Dave Wilson Nursery
even lists the characteristics of M27 rootstock and comes to this strange
conclusion anyways. Summer pruning is mainly used to open up a tree and rid
it of suckers and crossed branches, not size control. Severly pruning a fruit
tree will produce an ugly tree and cut down yield appreciably. Fruit production
should be controlled by thinning, not pruning.

Sherwin


I think we were discussing tree spacing not root stock. Be that as it may,
After a little searching, I find no one in violent disagreement with Dave
Wilson Nursery's back yard gardening but you. Earlier posts have refered to
his nursery, taking no exception to his techniques.

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...nursery&num=10
&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=r ec.gardens*&as_usubject=&a
s_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_min m=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=
31&as_maxm=3&as_maxy=2006&safe=off

http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2F0213EC

The California Rare Fruit Growers organization think enough of his
practices to put a copy of his page up on their website.


http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/backyardorchard.html

Fruit production can be controlled by thinning and pruning. Size can be
controlled by rootstock and pruning. Between you and the CRFG I'll take the
CRFG word on it. I believe they know a bit more about growing fruit in a
back yard than you do.

Bill
--
Gmail and Google Groups. This century's answer to AOL and WebTV.

Why don't you just not go off defending someone you say doesn't need
help?

Read your own drivel. I don't care what your oppion of Dvae's Garden
is. There is lots of advice which does not follow proven horticultural
practices.

bahB

After a tree has been trained as a espalier it will not need
"excessive" pruning. But such tree forms were one of the reason
dwarfing rootstocks were investigated and used.

And yes, I have seen espalied full size apple trees. I didn't come
here to argue. My my my...

hapy gardening is happy gardening. It ain't 1984 no more, this
is a Brave New World.

baHBBB bbsmcn (I like lopping)