Southern California; clay which started out as hard as rock and now I
can put a shovel into it with little trouble because I have been
composting it for 20+ years. Compost which includes grass cuttings;
Liquid Amber leaves; leftover kitchen veggie (including coffee grounds);
an occasional half-bag of steer and artichoke plant trimmings and stalks.

I have photos of my tomatoes (large plants, many large fruits) and
sunflowers (8' high with magnificent flowers!) from when I first started
gardening there.

question: after all this time, using the same 8' X 10' plot growing
tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and zucchini, does the soil need other
nutrients? I sometimes nourish the plants with Miracle Grow, but not
frequently or regularly (I think it helps).

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Something needed?

Oh, and yes, I have been digging the compost into the soil - as well as
applying it on top for weed control and moisture retention.

help?

thanks,
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

As long as you keep adding good compost the soil shouldn't be depleted.

HOWEVER

You should rotate your crops..maybe don't plant anything for a few years.
Disease, insects, and nematodes specific to the crops you plant every year
can build up in the soil and affect your plants.

My suggestion would be to plant a green manure crop there (alfalfa or
buckwheat) and till in under for a couple of years. That'll do wonders for
the dirt, and allow the bad critters to die off. Then go back and use it
for veggies again. Or try flowers in that area..

Plant your garden in another area this coming year if you must. Perhaps make
a small raised bed and fill it with topsoil until you can go back to the old
area.

Either way, it sounds like the soil needs a good rest.

Hope this helps,



"Richard Ellis" wrote in message
...
Southern California; clay which started out as hard as rock and now I
can put a shovel into it with little trouble because I have been
composting it for 20+ years. Compost which includes grass cuttings;
Liquid Amber leaves; leftover kitchen veggie (including coffee grounds);
an occasional half-bag of steer and artichoke plant trimmings and stalks.

I have photos of my tomatoes (large plants, many large fruits) and
sunflowers (8' high with magnificent flowers!) from when I first started
gardening there.

question: after all this time, using the same 8' X 10' plot growing
tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and zucchini, does the soil need other
nutrients? I sometimes nourish the plants with Miracle Grow, but not
frequently or regularly (I think it helps).

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Something needed?

Oh, and yes, I have been digging the compost into the soil - as well as
applying it on top for weed control and moisture retention.

help?

thanks,
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

Richard Ellis wrote:

Southern California; clay which started out as hard as rock and now I
can put a shovel into it with little trouble because I have been
composting it for 20+ years. Compost which includes grass cuttings;
Liquid Amber leaves; leftover kitchen veggie (including coffee grounds);
an occasional half-bag of steer and artichoke plant trimmings and stalks.

I have photos of my tomatoes (large plants, many large fruits) and
sunflowers (8' high with magnificent flowers!) from when I first started
gardening there.

question: after all this time, using the same 8' X 10' plot growing
tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and zucchini, does the soil need other
nutrients? I sometimes nourish the plants with Miracle Grow, but not
frequently or regularly (I think it helps).

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Something needed?

Oh, and yes, I have been digging the compost into the soil - as well as
applying it on top for weed control and moisture retention.

help?

thanks,
de


maybe the pH has slowly shifted or the years of harvesting have depleted
a mineral?

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

You should be able to get a soil testr for a very nominal fee through
your cooperative extension service.
Anything else is just guessing.

Richard Ellis wrote:
Southern California; clay which started out as hard as rock and now I
can put a shovel into it with little trouble because I have been
composting it for 20+ years. Compost which includes grass cuttings;
Liquid Amber leaves; leftover kitchen veggie (including coffee grounds);
an occasional half-bag of steer and artichoke plant trimmings and stalks.

I have photos of my tomatoes (large plants, many large fruits) and
sunflowers (8' high with magnificent flowers!) from when I first started
gardening there.

question: after all this time, using the same 8' X 10' plot growing
tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and zucchini, does the soil need other
nutrients? I sometimes nourish the plants with Miracle Grow, but not
frequently or regularly (I think it helps).

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Something needed?

Oh, and yes, I have been digging the compost into the soil - as well as
applying it on top for weed control and moisture retention.

help?

thanks,
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

In article ,
"Anna M. Miller" wrote:

As long as you keep adding good compost the soil shouldn't be depleted.

HOWEVER

You should rotate your crops..maybe don't plant anything for a few years.
Disease, insects, and nematodes specific to the crops you plant every year
can build up in the soil and affect your plants.

My suggestion would be to plant a green manure crop there (alfalfa or
buckwheat) and till in under for a couple of years. That'll do wonders for
the dirt, and allow the bad critters to die off. Then go back and use it
for veggies again. Or try flowers in that area..

Plant your garden in another area this coming year if you must. Perhaps make
a small raised bed and fill it with topsoil until you can go back to the old
area.

Either way, it sounds like the soil needs a good rest.

Hope this helps,

Yes. I think that's exactly what must be happening - disease, etc. seems
to exist, plus I have another area to use. I think flowers or clover or
alfalfa is a great idea.

Next year I'll get the soil tested, just to see...

Thanks to all - and to all, Happy Holidays!
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

Compost is a good soil conditioner, but does not provide much nutrition to the
soil.
I add in composted cow manure at the end of each growing season to restore
whatever energy I take out in harvested plants.

Sherwin D.

Richard Ellis wrote:

Southern California; clay which started out as hard as rock and now I
can put a shovel into it with little trouble because I have been
composting it for 20+ years. Compost which includes grass cuttings;
Liquid Amber leaves; leftover kitchen veggie (including coffee grounds);
an occasional half-bag of steer and artichoke plant trimmings and stalks.

I have photos of my tomatoes (large plants, many large fruits) and
sunflowers (8' high with magnificent flowers!) from when I first started
gardening there.

question: after all this time, using the same 8' X 10' plot growing
tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and zucchini, does the soil need other
nutrients? I sometimes nourish the plants with Miracle Grow, but not
frequently or regularly (I think it helps).

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Something needed?

Oh, and yes, I have been digging the compost into the soil - as well as
applying it on top for weed control and moisture retention.

help?

thanks,
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Time for a soil test... I'm suspicious of too much sodium (I lived in S.
Cal 30 years ago, and the water was pretty saline!). I'm also suspicious
that you might have had more sun on your garden plot 20 years ago than you
do now.

In article ,
Kay Lancaster wrote:

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Time for a soil test... I'm suspicious of too much sodium (I lived in S.
Cal 30 years ago, and the water was pretty saline!). I'm also suspicious
that you might have had more sun on your garden plot 20 years ago than you
do now.

Yes, less sun, more tree. I wonder if morning sun, like 8:00am - 12pm
is better than afternoon sun, 12pm - 4? I have a choice between two
areas, west side of the tree or east. Now it's on the pm side.

thanks again!
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Time for a soil test... I'm suspicious of too much sodium (I lived in S.
Cal 30 years ago, and the water was pretty saline!). I'm also suspicious
that you might have had more sun on your garden plot 20 years ago than you
do now.

Yes, less sun, more tree. I wonder if morning sun, like 8:00am - 12pm
is better than afternoon sun, 12pm - 4? I have a choice between two
areas, west side of the tree or east. Now it's on the pm side.

I think there's the problem, right there... "full sun" (for veggies) is usually
6 hrs of direct sunlight per day.

As to AM or PM:
Probably no real difference in your climate, unless you're trying to get
a crop of warm season veggies in the winter (you'll want the afternoon sun
then) or veggies happier with cooler climates in the summer (you'll want
morning sun, afternoon shade).

Still probably worth a soil test... salinization of non-drip irrigated soils
in S. Cal is a problem.

Kay

I agree with the soil test. They are cheep, and will provide you with
a lot of information that you can use as a baseline.

Nature does not "rest" the soil, so while "resting" the soil does
not make much sense to me, crop rotation is a good idea, especially
with Tomatoes and peppers. Put green beans in their place, or other
legumes (peas are also good). Legumes will provide a natural source of
nitrogen - especially if you till them back into the soil. Tomato,
corn and squash are all heavy feeders.

Do not compost tomato plants, or till them back into your soil. Fungal
disease can transfer from year to year, and may infect your compost
pile too.

Keep composting - If you compost as much as you say you do, you should
not need "Miracle Grow" or other additives. If you absolutely feel the
need to fertilize - use a slow release like blood meal or fish
emulsion.

Good Luck

Craig Cooper
http://www.growersinfo.com




Kay Lancaster wrote:
My tomato plants are smaller and the yield sparse. Zucchinis only
occasionally produce - usually shrivel before getting any size to them.

Time for a soil test... I'm suspicious of too much sodium (I lived in S.
Cal 30 years ago, and the water was pretty saline!). I'm also suspicious
that you might have had more sun on your garden plot 20 years ago than you
do now.

Yes, less sun, more tree. I wonder if morning sun, like 8:00am - 12pm
is better than afternoon sun, 12pm - 4? I have a choice between two
areas, west side of the tree or east. Now it's on the pm side.

I think there's the problem, right there... "full sun" (for veggies) is usually
6 hrs of direct sunlight per day.

As to AM or PM:
Probably no real difference in your climate, unless you're trying to get
a crop of warm season veggies in the winter (you'll want the afternoon sun
then) or veggies happier with cooler climates in the summer (you'll want
morning sun, afternoon shade).

Still probably worth a soil test... salinization of non-drip irrigated soils
in S. Cal is a problem.

Kay

In article om,
"Growers Information" wrote:

I agree with the soil test. They are cheep, and will provide you with
a lot of information that you can use as a baseline.

Nature does not "rest" the soil, so while "resting" the soil does
not make much sense to me, crop rotation is a good idea, especially
with Tomatoes and peppers. Put green beans in their place, or other
legumes (peas are also good). Legumes will provide a natural source of
nitrogen - especially if you till them back into the soil. Tomato,
corn and squash are all heavy feeders.

Do not compost tomato plants, or till them back into your soil. Fungal
disease can transfer from year to year, and may infect your compost
pile too.

Keep composting - If you compost as much as you say you do, you should
not need "Miracle Grow" or other additives. If you absolutely feel the
need to fertilize - use a slow release like blood meal or fish
emulsion.

Good Luck

Craig Cooper
http://www.growersinfo.com


Thank you again for your responses.

I have been composting all veggie garden plants for years, hence there's
a good chance my tomatoes have been suffering from the same fungi year
after year (some sort of dark fungus which made the leaves dry up and
drop off), plus the darkening and ultimate rotting of the bottoms of the
tomatoes.

How long will the leftover fungi persist once I've stopped composting
the last crops of tomato plants? Don't those spores last a very long
time?

Beans it will be (as my grand daughter says, "Cool Beans!"). (heh).

happy holidays!
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

Richard Ellis wrote:
In article om,
"Growers Information" wrote:


I agree with the soil test. They are cheep, and will provide you with
a lot of information that you can use as a baseline.

Nature does not "rest" the soil, so while "resting" the soil does
not make much sense to me, crop rotation is a good idea, especially
with Tomatoes and peppers. Put green beans in their place, or other
legumes (peas are also good). Legumes will provide a natural source of
nitrogen - especially if you till them back into the soil. Tomato,
corn and squash are all heavy feeders.

Do not compost tomato plants, or till them back into your soil. Fungal
disease can transfer from year to year, and may infect your compost
pile too.

Keep composting - If you compost as much as you say you do, you should
not need "Miracle Grow" or other additives. If you absolutely feel the
need to fertilize - use a slow release like blood meal or fish
emulsion.

Good Luck

Craig Cooper
http://www.growersinfo.com



Thank you again for your responses.

I have been composting all veggie garden plants for years, hence there's
a good chance my tomatoes have been suffering from the same fungi year
after year (some sort of dark fungus which made the leaves dry up and
drop off), plus the darkening and ultimate rotting of the bottoms of the
tomatoes.

How long will the leftover fungi persist once I've stopped composting
the last crops of tomato plants? Don't those spores last a very long
time?

Beans it will be (as my grand daughter says, "Cool Beans!"). (heh).

happy holidays!
de


In peppers, I THINK that type of rot can be a calcium deficiency.
Inconsistent water/moisture too I think.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Richard Ellis wrote:
In article om,
"Growers Information" wrote:

I agree with the soil test. They are cheep, and will provide you with
a lot of information that you can use as a baseline.

Nature does not "rest" the soil, so while "resting" the soil does
not make much sense to me, crop rotation is a good idea, especially
with Tomatoes and peppers. Put green beans in their place, or other
legumes (peas are also good). Legumes will provide a natural source of
nitrogen - especially if you till them back into the soil. Tomato,
corn and squash are all heavy feeders.

Do not compost tomato plants, or till them back into your soil. Fungal
disease can transfer from year to year, and may infect your compost
pile too.

Keep composting - If you compost as much as you say you do, you should
not need "Miracle Grow" or other additives. If you absolutely feel the
need to fertilize - use a slow release like blood meal or fish
emulsion.

Good Luck

Craig Cooper
http://www.growersinfo.com


Thank you again for your responses.

I have been composting all veggie garden plants for years, hence there's
a good chance my tomatoes have been suffering from the same fungi year
after year (some sort of dark fungus which made the leaves dry up and
drop off), plus the darkening and ultimate rotting of the bottoms of the
tomatoes.

How long will the leftover fungi persist once I've stopped composting
the last crops of tomato plants? Don't those spores last a very long
time?

Beans it will be (as my grand daughter says, "Cool Beans!"). (heh).

happy holidays!
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault

Carl brings up a good point too. Tomatoes rotting on the bottom is
either a moisture or calcium issue. The spotty leaves - fungus.

I would hold on the tomatoes for at least two seasons.

Good luck - Merry Christmas

Craig
http://www.growersinfo.com



Richard Ellis wrote:
In article om,
"Growers Information" wrote:

I agree with the soil test. They are cheep, and will provide you with
a lot of information that you can use as a baseline.

Nature does not "rest" the soil, so while "resting" the soil does
not make much sense to me, crop rotation is a good idea, especially
with Tomatoes and peppers. Put green beans in their place, or other
legumes (peas are also good). Legumes will provide a natural source of
nitrogen - especially if you till them back into the soil. Tomato,
corn and squash are all heavy feeders.

Do not compost tomato plants, or till them back into your soil. Fungal
disease can transfer from year to year, and may infect your compost
pile too.

Keep composting - If you compost as much as you say you do, you should
not need "Miracle Grow" or other additives. If you absolutely feel the
need to fertilize - use a slow release like blood meal or fish
emulsion.

Good Luck

Craig Cooper
http://www.growersinfo.com


Thank you again for your responses.

I have been composting all veggie garden plants for years, hence there's
a good chance my tomatoes have been suffering from the same fungi year
after year (some sort of dark fungus which made the leaves dry up and
drop off), plus the darkening and ultimate rotting of the bottoms of the
tomatoes.

How long will the leftover fungi persist once I've stopped composting
the last crops of tomato plants? Don't those spores last a very long
time?

Beans it will be (as my grand daughter says, "Cool Beans!"). (heh).

happy holidays!
de

--
Everybody is right.
-Rochefoucault