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#31
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Watering with soft water
there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the water) plus
the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my mothers house the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody carried the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months. She had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if she didnt have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid for city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay for that now. We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter, about 30 or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are based on USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain. Well water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every 25 years or so. Ingrid On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , Sheldon wrote: wrote: not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ? What do you call "very expensive"? A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50. Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the life of the water softener (about 20 years). If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is VERY expensive. This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. |
#32
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Watering with soft water
Well I am not confusing anything. salt is NaCl which dissociates in water to Na+ and
Cl-. Cl-, BTW is what makes food taste "salty". The sodium ions are exchanged for the calcium and magnesium ions in the water which are stabilized with the chloride ions which are flushed down the drain. The sodium stays in the softened water. This is a BIG issue with people who keep fish because some places have so much calcium and/or magnesium in their water that the sodium ion concentration is thus high enough to sicken and/or kill their fish. This is even a bigger problem when people use salt prophylactically without testing for sodium ion concentration. It is the chloride ions that are helpful to fish, not the sodium. In addition physicians typically admonish their patients with high blood pressure to not drink softened water, rather, to use RO water for drinking. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:43:40 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: You're confusing "sodium" with "salt". The process is that sodium ions are picked up on the surface of the zeolite. Not "salt", just one of the chemical components of it. Those are exchanged for less-reactive calcium and magnesium ions in the water, so calcium carbonate (or magnesium sulfate or whatever) gets turned into sodium carbonate (or sodium sulfate or whatever) with a slight release of energy. The calcium and magnesium ions then remain on the suface of the zeolite until such time as it is regenerated by exposure to sodium chloride at which time it picks up the sodium ions and the calcium goes into the brine as calcium chloride. So the softened water has no "salt" added, what is has is the existing calcium and magnesium compounds turned into sodium compounds. The quantity of the compounds doesn't change, what changes is their chemical composition. If you think that a water softener works by "adding salt" then try adding salt to hard water and then have the hardness checked with and without salt and see what you get. -- |
#33
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Watering with soft water
hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4,
sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? |
#35
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Watering with soft water
In article ,
wrote: there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the water) plus the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my mothers house the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody carried the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months. She had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if she didnt have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid for city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay for that now. We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter, about 30 or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are based on USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain. Well water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every 25 years or so. Ingrid On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , Sheldon wrote: wrote: not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ? What do you call "very expensive"? A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50. Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the life of the water softener (about 20 years). If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is VERY expensive. This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Soft water is good for the bathtub/shower, laundry, and the dishwasher. For drinking, hard water is probably better (mineral water). -- Billy Impeach Pelosi Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml |
#36
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Watering with soft water
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:25:36 -0800, Billy
wrote: In article , wrote: there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the water) plus the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my mothers house the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody carried the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months. She had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if she didnt have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid for city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay for that now. We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter, about 30 or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are based on USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain. Well water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every 25 years or so. Ingrid On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , Sheldon wrote: wrote: not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ? What do you call "very expensive"? A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50. Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the life of the water softener (about 20 years). If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is VERY expensive. This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Soft water is good for the bathtub/shower, laundry, and the dishwasher. For drinking, hard water is probably better (mineral water). I think it depends on how hard it is and what else is in it. Out city water tastes bad to me, it is very hard. It's no doubt better on a health basis, except when it is so offensive that I don't drink it. I use an RO filter for drinking water. |
#37
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Watering with soft water
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy
wrote: In article , wrote: hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. The H2S in the well most likely comes from sulfate reducing bacteria acting on sulfates that are already in the water. |
#38
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Watering with soft water
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy
wrote: In article , wrote: hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. Sulfur dioxide and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form sulfuric acid. Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid. H2SO4 - H2S + 2O2 The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description is only a rough description of what is going on. |
#39
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Watering with soft water
In article ,
"Ryan P." wrote: Billy wrote: H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. . . I don't know about the chemical equation there, but I do know that my home inspector told me the same thing about making sure there was a valve on the outside spigots to prevent backflow for that very reason... also good for keeping fertilizers and the like out of your pipes. H2SO4 is sulfuric acid. H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml |
#40
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Watering with soft water
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:22:49 -0800, Billy
wrote: In article , "Ryan P." wrote: Billy wrote: H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. . . I don't know about the chemical equation there, but I do know that my home inspector told me the same thing about making sure there was a valve on the outside spigots to prevent backflow for that very reason... also good for keeping fertilizers and the like out of your pipes. H2SO4 is sulfuric acid. H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. I think the CO2 was incidental to the discussion. There may be some biological reactions where bacteria are removing the carbon from the CO2, releasing oxygen, which then combines with the H2S, but that's getting a bit far afield here. More frequently the bacteria remove the oxygen from the sulfate, use it to metabolize some organic compounds and release the CO2 from that metabolism. |
#41
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Watering with soft water
In article ,
Charles wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , wrote: hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. **Sulfur dioxide** Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide. You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs vs. brimstone). What an imbecile. Idiot. Moron. Get my drift? and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form sulfuric acid. Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid. H2SO4 - H2S + 2O2 The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description is only a rough description of what is going on. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml |
#42
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Watering with soft water
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:39:37 -0800, Billy
wrote: In article , Charles wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , wrote: hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. **Sulfur dioxide** Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide. You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs vs. brimstone). What an imbecile. Idiot. Moron. Get my drift? No, I don't. I started talking about sulfur dioxide because it was appropriate to what I had to say. Not too complicated, is it? What I was getting to was the H2S and the CO2 combination, CO2 drifted into the thread some time ago. and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form sulfuric acid. Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid. H2SO4 - H2S + 2O2 The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description is only a rough description of what is going on. |
#43
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Watering with soft water
In article ,
Charles wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:39:37 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , Charles wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy wrote: In article , wrote: hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? H2S + 2CO2 - H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other statements questionable. **Sulfur dioxide** Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide. You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs vs. brimstone). What an imbecile. Idiot. Moron. Get my drift? No, I don't. I started talking about sulfur dioxide because it was appropriate to what I had to say. Not too complicated, is it? Appropriate to what you had to say? How do you get from sulfides to sulfites? Why don't you just start singing Ave Maria, it has about as much to do with the conversation as sulfites. It certainly isn't complicated to realize that you are cretin. And here you are trying to rationalize your bullshit? You seem to be a waste of time and space. What I was getting to was the H2S and the CO2 combination, CO2 drifted into the thread some time ago. In your ear, when? They are both volatile and leave solution as gases. and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form sulfuric acid. Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid. H2SO4 - H2S + 2O2 The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description is only a rough description of what is going on. In some other universe. We were talking about sulfides, H2S. God, you are slow. OK. If you are 12 years old or younger, I forgive you. If you are older, you have a lot of nerve wasting my time. On other news fronts, the smoked spareribs were wonderful and and a big hit. We are best buds with the family pets again:-) -- Billy Impeach Pelosi Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml |
#44
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Watering with soft water
wrote in message news:47ccc853$0$1345 Remember that sewage fees are based on USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain. Well water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every 25 years or so. Where I live, the sewage fees are based on your winter (low) usage, so you don't get charged for summer watering. |
#45
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Watering with soft water
Appreciate your input. I've done alot of homework regarding the anaerobic
bacteria that produce such gas, their typical habitats, and so forth. There are pockets of water that are referred to as wells that have suitable habitat for these bacteria, just as a peat bottomed pond does. These reside there whether a well is drilled or not. A one-way check valve at the bib can serve the same purpose you speak of. Even though it wasn't designed for that in mind. Nevertheless, the hydrogen sulfide gas originates from the well since day 1 it was tapped. There are many considerations for "shocking" a well. That includes my neighbors that may sharing the same water who may pump bleach, and drink it. I prefer to deal with it as it is for my purposes without treatment for irrigation. The aerator in my filtration system forces air into the water while in a storage bottle. This changes into sulfuric acid and sinks to the bottom of the bottle. Every 24 hours, its mixed with incoming water and flushed to a french drain automatically. The live oaks in the vicinity, and St. Augustine grass above the french drain don't seem to mind it. The way I look at it the acidity of the watered down sulfuric acid and the alkalinity of the limestone rock and caliche native to the local area are doing something good in the mix. -- Dave My vote in this primary was for the lesser of many evils... wrote in message . com... hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4, sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote: Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the same home plumbing. Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this situation? |
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