Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:34:46 -0400, "Paul J.
Dudley" wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:27:39 -0700, Sheldon
wrote:

"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven
dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle
infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I
grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed
it across the whole of the foliage and grape
clusters.

Didn't you read the directions... that's the
dumbest method for applying Sevin.


The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my
girlfriends father,
complete with no instructions. Just toss it
across the whole of the vine like he does his
peach trees. So that is what I did.

If you don't have anything more constructive
to offer than your
sarcastic critisism, please keep it to
yourself.

= Paul =

Sheesh.....besides poisoning our world, you are
too effing careless to effectively use even a
sockpuppet, Ima Paul Dudley Goodguy.

I'm sure as hell glad you aren't my neighbor,
Poisoner of Bees, Spiders, Butterflies and Other
Helpful and Harmless Living Creatures.....such
as your Neighbors!!

Charlie

Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or
join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For
example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use
chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used.

Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given
the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL
AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR
advice and opinion. Of course not. You have
your own agenda.

In article , Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they
severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking
up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the
mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of
ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is
that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same,
you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to
bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is).
You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that
this doesn't happen again.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they
severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking
up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the
mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of
ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is
that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same,
you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to
bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is).
You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that
this doesn't happen again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start
another flame war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't
start the world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the
company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they
severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking
up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the
mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of
ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is
that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same,
you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to
bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is).
You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that
this doesn't happen again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start
another flame war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't
start the world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the
company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =


Sulfur candles were used before there was a written language. As luck
would have it, SO2 is heavier than air. Sulfur wicks are still used to
burn in barrels before they are stored empty although the trend is
towards compressed gas.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article
,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and
fumarias. But then they severed the wine in
these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic
night descended on Europe. Things (flavor)
started looking up again in the mid-1600s when
cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time
beer and wine saved Europe from the main
diseases of ground water. The same function
that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that nothing
harmful to man can survive fermentation. All
the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I
know it wasn't your intent to bring about the
downfall of Western Civilization (such as it
is). You've got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame war
) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in
the future ( .. so I won't start the world
whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to
use their dust ) and am waiting their reply.

= Paul =

Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health -
depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the
must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact
with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML
bacteria are not used then the probability of the
formation of carcinogens is enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there
are many. I recently came across an article in
"Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy
with the heading of "Human health concerns
associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is NOT
an attempt to start religious wars over technique
or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that
we as wine makers/growers should know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than some
of the material discussed below but perhaps we
can make better wine if we are aware of some of
these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes that
have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such as
headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic
properties of ethyl carbamate are based on
studies with experimental animals, there is not
direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct
correlation between elevated biogenic amines in
wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic
acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and
higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic
fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen,
it is becoming the focus of international
regulation, and so its formation must be managed
properly both in the vineyard and during the
winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate
precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea
produced from wine yeast is thought to be the
major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host
of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie
ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and*

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that
malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for
biogenic amine formation during the winemaking
process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic
amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or
have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to
remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and
soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that are known to produce low levels of urea
(Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice
has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing),
which can liberate amino acids and proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not
have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they
allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the
resources to monitor all of the above but we can
control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic
to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23
references cited at the end of the article.**I
did not quote the article in the entirety but
tried to summarize the main points.

Paul

In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article
,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and
fumarias. But then they severed the wine in
these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic
night descended on Europe. Things (flavor)
started looking up again in the mid-1600s when
cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time
beer and wine saved Europe from the main
diseases of ground water. The same function
that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that nothing
harmful to man can survive fermentation. All
the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I
know it wasn't your intent to bring about the
downfall of Western Civilization (such as it
is). You've got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame war
) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in
the future ( .. so I won't start the world
whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to
use their dust ) and am waiting their reply.

= Paul =

Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health -
depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the
must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact
with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML
bacteria are not used then the probability of the
formation of carcinogens is enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there
are many. I recently came across an article in
"Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy
with the heading of "Human health concerns
associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is NOT
an attempt to start religious wars over technique
or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that
we as wine makers/growers should know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than some
of the material discussed below but perhaps we
can make better wine if we are aware of some of
these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes that
have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such as
headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic
properties of ethyl carbamate are based on
studies with experimental animals, there is not
direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct
correlation between elevated biogenic amines in
wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic
acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and
higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic
fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen,
it is becoming the focus of international
regulation, and so its formation must be managed
properly both in the vineyard and during the
winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate
precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea
produced from wine yeast is thought to be the
major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host
of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie
ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and*

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that
malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for
biogenic amine formation during the winemaking
process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic
amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or
have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to
remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and
soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that are known to produce low levels of urea
(Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice
has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing),
which can liberate amino acids and proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not
have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they
allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the
resources to monitor all of the above but we can
control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic
to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23
references cited at the end of the article.**I
did not quote the article in the entirety but
tried to summarize the main points.

Paul

Interesting article, however I suggest you check with
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html

and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English
Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no
idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story.

S U M M A R Y

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard.

Monitor soil nitrogen status.

Monitor vine nitrogen status.

Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is
already high.

Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars
and especially rootstocks.

Monitor juice nitrogen status.

Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.

Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.

Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.

Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L.

When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea
excretion characteristics.

Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics.

Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC
formation.

Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea
excretion by yeast.

Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.

Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and
transport
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article

,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced
before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras
and fumarias. But then they severed the wine
in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things
(flavor) started looking up again in the
mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use.
In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe
from the main diseases of ground water. The
same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that
nothing harmful to man can survive
fermentation. All the same, you've been a
naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your
intent to bring about the downfall of
Western Civilization (such as it is). You've
got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame
war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful
in the future ( .. so I won't start the
world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me
to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =

Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health
- depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of
the must is above 3.5, if there is extended
contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast
and ML bacteria are not used then the
probability of the formation of carcinogens is
enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed
there are many. I recently came across an
article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by
Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health
concerns associated with wine microorganisms"
(pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is
NOT an attempt to start religious wars over
technique or scare anyone but to raise some
concerns that we as wine makers/growers should
know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than
some of the material discussed below but
perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware
of some of these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes
that have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such
as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable
carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are
based on studies with experimental animals,
there is not direct evidence of it causing
cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a
direct correlation between elevated biogenic
amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents
(such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric
acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds),
and malolactic fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable
carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of
international regulation, and so its formation
must be managed properly both in the vineyard
and during the winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can
generate precursors for ethyl carbamate
formation, urea produced from wine yeast is
thought to be the major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole
host of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur
lie ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated
that malolactic fermentation is the primary
stage for biogenic amine formation during the
winemaking process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and
use commercial strains of Saccharomyces
cervisiae that lack or have minimal
decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and
use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that
lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase
activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added
to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion
and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2
levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or
minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines
and soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces
cervisiae that are known to produce low levels
of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B)
when juice has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie
ageing), which can liberate amino acids and
proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and
use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do
not have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation
and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2
levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or
minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have
the resources to monitor all of the above but
we can control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the
topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There
are*23 references cited at the end of the
article.**I did not quote the article in the
entirety but tried to summarize the main
points.

Paul

Interesting article, however I suggest you check
with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html

and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative
Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF
format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no
idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying
to spice up a story.

S U M M A R Y

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the
vineyard.

Monitor soil nitrogen status.

Monitor vine nitrogen status.

Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil
nitrogen status is already high.

Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly
with different cultivars and especially
rootstocks.

Monitor juice nitrogen status.

Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.

Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.

Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.

Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000
mg/L.

When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid
those with high urea excretion characteristics.

Use malo-lactic bacteria with known
characteristics.

Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot
completely eliminate EC formation.

Be aware that must fortification may aggravate
the problem of urea excretion by yeast.

Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.

Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures
during storage and transport

All of the above true but does not detract or
counter what I have posted.

In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

All of the above true but does not detract or
counter what I have posted.

No it doesn't ;o)
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:09:58 -0400, "Paul E.
Lehmann" wrote:


Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice
or join the ranks of the "holier than thou"

Yawn...OK, I will...join the ranks of the holier
than thou, that is.

And sorry to say, Paul, I'll post as I see fit,
according to my
"agenda" and not according to your demands. I
also intend to keep my life and help my
grandchildren keep theirs by doing what I can to
keep morons from contaminating their food with
poison.

For
example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use
chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used.

Golly, I guess that makes it just hunky-dory
okie-dokie to spread
poison about the planet. Thanks for the heads
up and the excellant argument justifying the use
of such, Paul.

Tell me, how do you feel about irradiated food?
:-)

I gots me all sorts of them kinds of questions I
would like to ponder
you head with, but I thinks I gots yer number
already, son. ;-)


Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given
the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL
AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR
advice and opinion.

"I'm from the gummint and I am here to help
you".....uh huh, oh yeah!

They do have some good plans for hogsheds,
though.

This statement of yours shows your lack of
understanding or care about such things as
three-legged frogs and declining bird
populations and cancers and all sorts of funky
shit that is happening on account of,
well, you know. But I didn't get this
information from monsatano or dow or bayer or
any of their front guys, like the usda and fda
and....so I guess it is just doom and gloom
bullshit.

Of course not. You have
your own agenda.

Yep, that agenda being the speaking out about
the use of toxins that contribute to the
toxically over-burdened planet and that
contribute to the bodily toxic load we and our
children and grandchildren must suffer on
account of the ignorance and greed of people
such as yourself and the sockpuppet and all the
minions of the agrochemical cartel who advocate
the use of toxins.

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?


Doom, Doom, Doom....can you hear the drums,
Paul?

Charlie

"You just caught me on a good night. I'm doing
what I was made to do - and I've got a feeling
I'm going to do it even better this time"
-

Captain

Billy

Tyne

Charlie

I gave the OP advice on how to obtain the answer
to his question - NOT - NOT I repeat my personal
opinion.

To summarize I have said:

1) Contact the manufacturer. If they say it is
safe that does not mean that one should stop
there. If they say chuck the grapes then by all
means do it.

2) I suggested calling the viticulture experts at
Virginia tech and or making the wine and sending
them a sample for testing.

3) Contacting the OP's local agriculture
extension agent.

YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on
nothing but shit house rumors and NOT science.

Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:09:58 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:


Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or
join the ranks of the "holier than thou" For
example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use
chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used.

Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given
the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL
AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR
advice and opinion. Of course not. You have
your own agenda.

You mean the Land Grant Universities who are paid by Monsanto, Dow
Elanco and Bayer to "test" and evaluate their latest carcinogens? NOT.

Yep, they are all out to get us.

Sherwin