In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:20 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:

really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles
are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown
and sure when they're at peak you have to do it
every day but it still beats poison.

I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will
give you a glass of wine each time you come out
and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of
frinjdwelr wrote:


"Paul J. Dudley"
wrote in message
Okay Paul, if it can systemically enter your
skin and cause harmful reactions, don't you
know it will also be systemic on the cell
walls of grapes?

Yes. But I was hoping that a 6 week duration
might be long enough for
the dust to break down in toxicity. My neighbor
puts the stuff on all her greens ( collard,
cabbage, turnip etc ). She pounces it on with
an old nylon stocking. In fact, she does the

Unless you never drink wine, there is a VERY high
probability that you have drunk wine that was
grown using Sevin or Carbaryl 80 WP (liquid
Sevin)

Sounds like that was a commercial vineyards around here that will make
you the same offer.

Gallo wine is and has been a completely certified organic product for
decades.

Eeeeeh. The good news: Organic wine is a growing trend. Gallo, the
largest U.S. winemaker with 33% market share, currently has 2,700 of its
9,000 total acreage organically certified. Bad news: Gallo buys 2/3 of
California grapes, mostly from the bulk wine area of the "Central Vally".
Most Gallo wine isn't certified organic. Which isn't to say that
it isn't drinkable. Most of it is simply "California" (anywhere
in California) not necessarily one of the premium, cooler, wine
growing regions like North Coast or Central Coast or Alexander
Valley or Edna Valley.

The last I checked (2003) the following local wineries were
organic to some extent.

The following wineries have been ranked as: all organic vineyard and no
sulfites wines, all organic vineyard wines, bio-dynamic vineyards, and
organic vineyards

In order for a wine to qualify as organic, it must have just 10 parts
(or fewer) per million sulfites.
-----------------------------------------------
All organic vineyard and no sulfites wines

H. Coturri & Sons LTD.
Visits by appointment
All wines made from organically-grown grapes, with no sulfites or other
preservatives added.
P.O. Box 396 6725 Enterprise Rd.,
Glen Ellen, CA 95442,
Telephone: (707) 525-9126
Fax707)542-8039
e-mail:
web site - http://www.coturriwinery.com/
Founded 1979
Wines: Albarello, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet
Sauvignon/Sangiovese, Sangiovese, Zinfandel

Frey Vineyards
All wines made from organically-grown grapes, with no sulfites added.
Tastings by appointment only
14000 Tomki Rd,
Redwood Valley
CA 95470
Tel: 707.485.5177, 1.800.760.3739,
Fax: 707.485.7875
web site - www.freywine.com
Email:
Tastings by appointment only.
Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc,Gewurztraminer, Natural White, Blush,
Sauvignon Blanc, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Petite Sirah,
Pinot, Merlot, Natural Red

other wineries that produce wines without sulfites:

Orleans Hill Vintners Association,
P.O. Box 1254,
Woodland, CA 95776
Tel: (530) 661-6538
FAX: (530) 661-1864
Founded 1980


La Rocca Vineyards,
P.O. Box 541,
Forest Ranch, CA 95942
Winery: 12360Doe Mill Rd.,
Forest Ranch, CA 95942
Tel: (530) 899-9463, (800) 808-9463,
Fax: (530) 894-7268
e-mail:
web site: www.aroccavineyards.com
Founded 1984

Vinatura,
819 J Street,
Arcata, CA 95501
Tel.: (707) 822-7272

Honeyrun
2309 Park Ave.,
Chico, CA 95928
Phone: (530) 345-6405 Fax: (530) 894-6639

The Organic Wine Works/Hallcrest Vineyards
379 Felton Empire Rd.,
Felton, CA 95018
Phone: (408) 335-4441 or (800) 699-9463
Fax: (408) 335-4450
Hours: Daily 11am-5:30pm

----------------------
All organic vineyard wines

Fetzer Vineyards/Bonterra Vineyards
All Bonterra wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
13601 Eastside Rd.,
Hopland, CA 95449
Tel.: 800.846.8637 ext. 604, or 707.744.7600 ext. 604
e-mail from web site
web site - http://www.fetzer.com/
Wines: Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Viognier, Sangiovese

Frog's Leap
All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
P.O. Box 189,
8815 Conn Creek Road,
Rutherford CA 94573
Tel: (800) 959-4704 or (707) 963-4704
Fax: (707) 963-0242
e-mail:
web site - http://www.frogsleap.com/
Merlot, Zinfandel, Chardonnay, Leapfrogsmilch, Sauvignon Blanc, Cabernet
Sauvignon, Rutherford (Cabernet Sauvignon/Cabernet Franc )

Lolonis Winery
(No chemical pesticides since 1956.)
All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
Mailing Address:
1904 Olympic Blvd., Ste. 8A,
Walnut Creek,
CA 94596
Winery:
1905 Road D,
Redwood Valley, CA
Tel: Sales & Mktg. Off. (510) 938-8066
Fax: (510) 938-8069
e-mail:
web site - : www.lolonis.com/
Founded 1962
Wines: Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Viognier, Merlot, Pinot Noir,
Cabernet Sauvignon, Valdiguie, Petit Syrah, Zinfandel, Cabernet Franc

Madonna Estate Mont St. John
All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
5400 Old Sonoma Rd.
Napa,
CA 94559
Tel: (707) 255-8864
Fax (707) 257-2778
e-mail:
web site - http://www.montstjohn.com/
Founded 1977
Wines: Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio,
Johannisberg Riesling, Gewurztraminer and Muscat di Canelli

Napa Wine Company
All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
Tastings are available by appointment
P.O. Box 434
7830 - 40 St. Helena Hwy, Oakville,
Ca 94562
Tel: (800) 848-9630 or (707) 944-1710
e-mail: .
web site - http://www.napawineco.com/
Wines: Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Blanc, Cabernet Sauvignon

Vigil Vineyards
Estate Reserve Terra Vin is made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified
grapes
3340 Hwy. 128,
Calistoga
CA 94515
Tel: (707) 942-2900
e-mail:
web site - http://www.vigilwine.com
Wine: Estate Reserve Terra Vin (Zinfandel/Carignan/Refosco)

Yorkville Cellars
All wines made from organically-grown, CCOF-certified grapes
5701 Highway 128
P.O. Box Three
Yorkville (population 146),
CA 95494 USA
Tel: 707.894.9177
Fax: 707.894.2426
e-mail:
web site - http://www.yorkville-cellars.com/
Wine: Sauvignon Blanc, Semillon, Eleanor of Aquitaine
(Semillon/Sauvignon Blanc), Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot,
Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Richard the Lion-Heart (Cabernet
Franc/Malbec/Petit Verdot/Merlot/Cabernet Sauvignon)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bio-dynamic vineyards

Benziger Family Winery and Everett Ridge Vineyard's are now using
biodynamic farming practices. Benziger Family Winery at their Sonoma
Mountain Estate Vineyards and all of Everett Ridge Vineyard's grapes.
Everett Ridge Vineyards were certified organic from CCOF in 1999.
Inquire at the wineries to determine if blending from non-organic
vineyards occurred.

Benziger Family Winery
1883 London Ranch Rd.
Glen Ellen,
CA 95442
(707) 935 - 3000 - voice
(707) 935 - 3016 - fax
e-mail:
web site - http://www.benziger.com/index.shtml

Everett Ridge Vineyards and Winery
435 West Dry Creek Road,
Healdsburg CA 95448
Tel: 707-433-1637
Fax 707-433-7024
e-mail:
web site - http://www.everettridge.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Organic Vineyards

The following wineries have, in total or in part, organic vineyards.
This however does not mean that grapes from non-organic vineyards were
not blended into their wines. Inquire at the wineries.

Davis Bynum Winery
8075 Westside Road
Healdsburg, California 95448
Tasting Room: (800) 826-1073
Tel: (707) 433-2611
Fax: (707) 433-4309
e-mail:
web site - http://www.davisbynum.com/


Kenwood Vineyards
P.O. Box 447
Kenwood, CA 95452
Tel: (707) 833-5891
Fax: (707) 833-1146
e-mail:
web site - http://www.kenwoodvineyards.com/
WE'RE CERTIFIED ORGANIC! March 14, 1996
Three of Kenwood's vineyards are certified organic: Kenwood
Estate Vineyard, Yulupa Vineyard, and Upper Weise
Kenwood wines are bottled they are in a range of twenty-five to
thirty-five parts per million free sulfites.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

In article ,
Rick wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:17:33 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:20 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:

really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles
are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown
and sure when they're at peak you have to do it
every day but it still beats poison.

I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will
give you a glass of wine each time you come out
and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of
frinjdwelr wrote:



There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an
altered header.


Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7
days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit.

Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides.

http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm

Here are the application guides from New York

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl
/carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html

Changed the header again.

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or
separated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys
tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

In article
, Bill
wrote:

There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an
altered header.


Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7
days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit.

Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides.


http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm

Here are the application guides from New York


http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl
/carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html

Changed the header again.

Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active
ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with
less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3
toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at
all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer
(but still serious) low exposure risks.

But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the
main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic
gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on
everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill
beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of
harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover.

Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of
regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're
about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to
maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as
organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that
does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in
a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced
multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance.

The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific
example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore
population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the
desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly
under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season
and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will
take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly
spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs
specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will
never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely
start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence.

The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant,
and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care
of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with
hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed
a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar).
Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a
dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the
beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia
vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a
number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for
an entire block.

Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field
studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in
June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as
they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the
garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or
a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be
so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects).

In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it
takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best
part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might
otherwise select.

-paghat the ratgirl

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or
separated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys
tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum

Bill
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote:
In article
, Bill

wrote:
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active

MASSIVE SNIPS

OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use
chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its
derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or
lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but
when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed
with some damn crap.

Chris

In article
,
Chris wrote:

On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote:
In article
, Bill

wrote:
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active

MASSIVE SNIPS

OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use
chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its
derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or
lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but
when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed
with some damn crap.

Chris

Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the
same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are
more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their
residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem
ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of
your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality
of your crops will be similar to what you would get from
hydroponics.

The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts
are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil.
There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in
the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for
more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half
dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape
and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures
(plants), and cover crops.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related