On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:56:10 -0700, Billy
wrote:

Penelope wrote:
, Billy wrote:

spinosad
Translation: incredibly toxic to bees

Yes, what was I thinking! Best to use the malathion suggested by
another poster.

"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a brain."

I'm cool with the Scarecrow, too.


As YOU pointed out, there is no proof that the ants are causing the
problem. The damn plant is in a pot. Pull it out, hose off the dirt and
ants, and repot. You will (1) get a look at the roots to see if they are
damaged, (2) have gotten rid of the ants, and will be able to determine
if they were the problem,

The ants are only indirectly the problem, but nothing I'm getting
from this guy says he's much interested in anything but killing the
ants. Spinosad products used as a soil drench are not going to kill
any bees, and are not going to linger in the environment. Instead of
running in circles and shrieking "The sky is falling, the sky is
falling!" , why not encourage his fumbling efforts to use a less
harmful product?


(3) not have gratuitously dumped more poison
into the biosphere, (4) not enriched an environmentally toxic company.

What part of "nerve gas" don't you understand?
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...32924#Toxicity


Sit down, wipe some of the spittle off the screen, and reset your
sarcasm meter.


Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

Penelope wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:16:32 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

Issues with 'personal pronouns and paragraphs' - what does that mean?

It means you get an 'F' in English. We all make mistakes, I'm the
Queen of the Run On sentence; but you make no effort to communicate
pleasantly and effectively. Your writing makes you sound like a
petulant 2 year old.

Are you now or have you ever been an English teacher, or professional teacher of any
subject?

That you claim my writing makes me 'sound like a petulant 2 year old.' from your first
exposure to me in any way and are completely devoid of any knowledge of or about me would
support the consideration that you are quick to make substantive and critical statements
on topics of which you have no knowledge or awareness - of course that is not an admirable
/desirable trait.

Did not intend to communicate unpleasantly or ineffectively - rather to provide the
relevant information / observations in a concise and succinct manner.

Enough of the irrelevant and tangential sidebar - back to the gardening topics -


'Issues' is such an overused and non-specifc term to be essentially meaningless, IMO.

And if you claim that's true, you can avoid any and all of your
issues. Got it. It would appear you approach problem solving in your
garden the same way.


When I called the local gardening guru's radio program - he acknowledge that ants can
devastate a plants root system. Figure he knows more than I about such things.

He acknowledged, as in, it wasn't his idea? As in, you had already
decided that the ants were the problem, and pushed that idea? What
else did he suggest might be the problem?

No - I advised the facts of my observation - and he commented that ants can devastate a
root system.

Note he did not say they had - just that they can.



There is another gardenia in a pot not 5' away and has no problem at all - both are
watered the same, and received the same fertilizer and sulphur treatment.

Were you planning on telling us what fertilizer you used or what form
of sulphur?

Fertilizer is a 12-10-4 composition for azaleas, gardenias, magnolias, and camellias.

Sulphur product is NitroPhos Soil Sulphur (90% sulphur)


The one with the problem had evidence of a blackness on the leaves - black sooty mold -
that was removed with strong water spray.

And it never occurred to you that the mold was the key to what was
wrong with your gardenia? Stop focusing on ants destroying the roots
and consider the ant/aphid connection I suggested in my last post. If
you have ants and sooty mold, you most likely have aphids. If there
are no aphids, there is some kind of insect that produces honeydew
feeding on your gardenia. I lean towards aphids being the problem,
though, because I so often see ants herding and protecting aphids on
plants around here.

No it did not.

The black areas on the leaves was a small percentage of the plant's total leaf area -
although cannot quantify that numerically.

From the same garden radio program - black sooty mold was described as a nuisance and
easily removed with strong water blasts - not something that would cause the leaves to
yellow and fall off.



Is it your experience that ants cannot damage a plants root system?

It is my experience that ants do not damage roots. And lord knows
I've had tons of ants through here. When I moved into this house fire
ants were a terrible problem. Now there is a mega colony of Argentine
ants in this area, so I've had to learn to live with ants. I try and
be positive. The positive thing is that they wipe out fire ants and
take out a lot of termites. See?

That is good news - that ants do not damage roots. Also good they eat termites.



Want to do what is necessary to ensure the plant does not die - the blooms have been large
and very pleasantly fragrant.


A simple soap spray will kill aphids, or you can try Neem. Neem should
also make the ants very unhappy, although it probably would not kill
the whole mound.

Have Neem oil in my arsenal of garden products and will apply immediately.

One of my concerns is what to not apply to gardenias - I generally understand they are
somewhat fragile and not that tolerant of 'abuse'.

Regards,

Doug

Penelope wrote:

The ants are only indirectly the problem, but nothing I'm getting
from this guy says he's much interested in anything but killing the
ants. Spinosad products used as a soil drench are not going to kill
any bees, and are not going to linger in the environment. Instead of
running in circles and shrieking "The sky is falling, the sky is
falling!" , why not encourage his fumbling efforts to use a less
harmful product?

Please note my original question was: 'Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias
with success?'

Understood from the radio program's host that Spinosad is an organic product - a good
thing.

Reading from the Dow AgroSciences site - 'Spinosad is derived through the fermentation of
a naturally occurring organism. It uniquely combines the efficacy of synthetic products
with the benefits of biological insect pest control products.'

Whether it kills ants or repels them was not the question.

Wanted to find out what experience others had to determine if the product can be used on
gardenias without damaging / injuring the plant.

Regards,

Doug

Billy,

Thanks for the information.

Not knowing any more / better, would not have thought an organic product would not have
been toxic to bees.

With a declining bee population - last thing I want to do is unwittingly further reduce
their numbers.

In this instance - the product would be used as a drench, and therefore not provide for
typical / traditional bee contact.

Regards,

Doug



PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
This product is toxic to bees exposed to treatment for 3 hours following
treatment. Do not apply this pesticide to blooming, pollen-shedding or
nectar-producing parts of plants if bees may forage on the plants during
this time period. This product is toxic to aquatic invertebrates

However, why do you think the ants are causing the problem with your
gardenia? Unless they're herding aphids, I don't see how the ants
would hurt the plant. Are the ants fire ants, is that why you want to
get rid of them? Is there damage on the leaves that looks like insect
damage?

And what kind of fertilizer did you use? If the leaf yellowing
happened right after you fertilized, have you considered that the
fertilizer is the issue? Have you checked your soil pH? How much
water has the gardenia been getting?



Penelope

http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardli...-6583_msds.pdf
ECOTOXICOLOGY:
Based largely or completely on information for spinosad:
Material is highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on an
acute basis (LC50 or EC50 is between 0.1 and 1 mg/L).
Material is moderately toxic to fish on an acute basis
(LC50 is between 1 and 10 mg/L).
snip

Acute contact LD50 in honeybee (apis mellifera) is
---- 0.05 micrograms = 0.00005 g/bee.----
Translation: incredibly toxic to bees

How about repotting after hosing-off the roots?

Phisherman wrote:

The ants may be a sign or result of another issue. Ants are not
particularly harmful to Gardenias, but I'd put some Tero (or a Tero
trap) near the pot. I found Tero to be very effective at killing out
a colony because they feed the queen, plus you don't have insecticides
to deal with. Ants dislike powdered chalk, cinnamon, and mint.

Thanks for the suggestion - never heard of Tero, but will try it out.

Regards,

Doug

In article ,
Penelope wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:09:07 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,


Note to self: In the future, wear a cup-jock when posting questions ;O)


This from a man who goes into an arm waving, spittle-flecked and
pharisaic spasm every time someone doesn't meet his screwball
gardening standards.

Honestly Dude, shiny side out!


So, since when has "do no harm" fall under the rubric of screwball?
When has presenting a MSDS become spittle flecked?
Why do you add vituperations and ad hominen attacks to a discussion?
Could it be that you have no logical argument to make?
It's your characterization. It's your straw man.
If you didn't have your head buried in your back-side, I'd say bite me,
bitch.
Just remember, you set the precedent, Skank.

Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

In article ,
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote:

Billy,

Thanks for the information.

Not knowing any more / better, would not have thought an organic product
would not have
been toxic to bees.

With a declining bee population - last thing I want to do is unwittingly
further reduce
their numbers.

In this instance - the product would be used as a drench, and therefore not
provide for
typical / traditional bee contact.

Regards,

Doug

You may want to look at this article, excerpt below

http://extension.osu.edu/~news/story.php?id=2849

Another indication of

magnolia scale

results from the large quantities of sap sucked from the plant as scales
feed. The sap provides a low-protein, high-sugar diet, and in order for
the scale to obtain adequate amounts of protein, the insect must ingest
excessive amounts of sap. Much of this sap is excreted by the scales,
which produces a clear, sticky, sugary substance known as honeydew.

This honeydew coats twigs, leaves and anything under infested branches,
including cars and patio furniture.
If the honeydew is not removed, a more obvious, unattractive

black fungus known as sooty mold

begins to grow.
This is often the first symptom of infestation that people notice, Herms
said. Yellow jackets, wasps and

ants

also are good indicators of infestations as they are often

attracted to the sweet honeydew

on which they feed.

Magnolia trees that host a large population of scale insects can be
drained of energy, resulting in small, yellowing leaves, twig dieback,
thinning canopy and even death. Generally, the plants tolerate small
infestations fairly well, which allows homeowners time to implement a
management program before the problem escalates, Herms said.
-----

If you still want to go after the ants, in a responsible manner
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2004/0...ller-article.h
tm
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

Penelope said:

However, why do you think the ants are causing the problem with your
gardenia? Unless they're herding aphids, I don't see how the ants
would hurt the plant.

AAh, well, ants setting up house in a potted plant *can* cause problems,
and not just by farming aphids, as I've found out this year.

Two identical (well, mirror-imaged) containers of flowers, planted at
the same time, same treatment. The one with the ants suffered (wilting,
yellowing, root damage). The one with no ants is fine.

I suspect that the original poster's problem likely did involve aphids, as
he mentioned sooty black mold on the leaves. Driving off the ants would
be useful, as they protect and distribute ('herd') aphids.

Spinosad is derived from a bacteria and is available in products certified for
organic produce.

It is recommended for drenching for fire ant control and would probably
work for other ants as well (though it wouldn't be useful against aphids
or other sucking insects).

Green light makes a spray concentrate with Spinosad, as does Monterey
Garden. (Do a Google product search for Spinosad and you will have
your choice of online vendors.)

Locally, I'm able to buy a pre-mixed Spinosad product by Bonide named
(sort of annoyingly) 'Captain Jacks Dead Bug Brew' which I've been using
on my cabbages and kholrabi this year with good results (no sign of
cabbage worms -- better results than Bt).


--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"So, it was all a dream."
"No dear, this is the dream, you're still in the cell."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Gardenias need more zinc than most plants (except citrus). On the contrary yellow, the lack of zinc may be more prone to spend no blooming buds down. However, the lack of zinc can cause severe yellow spots on leaves. Zinc sulfate seems to be difficult to find these days, but some Ace Hardware stores, or can be ordered.

Gardenias aswell charge added zinc than a lot of plants (except for citrus). Instead of yellowing, a abridgement of zinc will added acceptable aftereffect in flower buds bottomward after blooming. However, a astringent abridgement zinc can cause yellow blotches on the leaves.

What the dickens is all this sarcasm and condescension doing in a gardening thread?
It's terribly rude to pick someone up on their grammer when all they've asked for is gardening advice?!

You should learn more manners and self restraint!

Ants can carry thrips which will destroy a gardenias leaves and blooms.Ants like the honeydew that aphids and thrips produce when eating the leaves. Control the ants and the plant can survive. We used a Bayer product that was worked into the soil around the gardenias. I revived a full bed of gardenias in Florida that had been neglected for years. We had flowers almost year round. Keep soil moist and wash off leaves if any white or black powdery mildew appears. Gardenias like an acidic soil too.

On 5/8/2015 9:31 AM, wrote:
Ants can carry thrips which will destroy a gardenias leaves and blooms.Ants like the honeydew that aphids and thrips produce when eating the leaves. Control the ants and the plant can survive. We used a Bayer product that was worked into the soil around the gardenias. I revived a full bed of gardenias in Florida that had been neglected for years. We had flowers almost year round. Keep soil moist and wash off leaves if any white or black powdery mildew appears. Gardenias like an acidic soil too.


Once used a systemic on mine to get rid of scale. Would probably kill
any bug trying to eat it.

In article
writes:

Is there something in the water lately? This is about the 4th
response I've seen this week to an article posted in 2009.


--
Drew Lawson | What you own is your own kingdom
| What you do is your own glory
| What you love is your own power
| What you live is your own story

Drew Lawson wrote:
....
Is there something in the water lately? This is about the 4th
response I've seen this week to an article posted in 2009.

could just be spring has sprung...


songbird