Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:56:44 -0800, Billy wrote:
Most plants take up nitrogen primarily in the form of nitrate (NO3-)
• except in conditions where nitrifying bacteria don't grow well
(low pH, anaerobic). Then ammonia (NH4+) will be available for uptake

Now that's interesting!

Since it's compost we're working with, we don't know (yet) which
plants will be using the nitrogen.

So, I guess, we want the nitrogen as both a nitrate (NO3-) and as an
ammonia (NH4+).

I wonder how we know if a plant that we plan on fertilizing with this
compost uses its nitrogen as nitrates versus ammonia?

And, depending if we want more nitrates versus more ammonia, I wonder
what we'd need to do to tilt the chemical balance one way or the
other?

I don't think it is feasible to manage the situation down to that level of
detail in soil.

David

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:25:34 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:
http://wesnetindia.org/fileadmin/att...ters/august08/
Urine_Harvesting.pdf

Nice one. Lots of good numbers to use as a reference point.

I liked the section on how to minimize nitrogen losses in stored &
applied urine via non-ionized ammonia gassing.

"The urine mixture should be quickly incorporated into the soil,
to minimize ammonia loss. The best method of doing this is by applying
urine to farrows or holes, which have to be covered over immediately
after application."

For storage, they suggested reducing the pH from 9 to 3 using a
fertilizer-friendly acid (e.g., by adding 26 mmol of sulfuric acid
(H2SO4) per liter of urine.

They said one study never lost more than 10% of the nitrogen (as non-
ionized ammonia gas) during application - but that once applied and
protected by a cover of soil, further nitrogen losses, they say, were
"negligible".

And, their estimation of about 5 grams of nitrogen per liter of urine,
and of 500 liters of urine (which is five pounds of nitrogen) and 50
liters of faeces per person per year may be useful overall, as a
background metric. (They estimated a single person's urinary nitrogen/
phosphorous/potassium output was 2.4kg/0.3kg/1.1kg per year.)

In addition, I hadn't realized urine composting reduces carbon emissions,
especially since it does release carbon dioxide as a gas, in addition to
ammonia gas.

I also hadn't realized we excrete exactly the same amount of nutrients
that we eat (I would have thought some was consumed somehow), and that
the amount of NPK excreted in urine was roughly 90% for Nitrogen, and
about 75% (roughly) for both phosphorous & potassium.

I'll add it to the reference list:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf
- http://wesnetindia.org/fileadmin/att...ters/august08/
Urine_Harvesting.pdf

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

It's uncalled for to attack someone's unsubstantiated theory as 'dumb
billgoat' as there may be a basis in fact to the original statement ...

It is a peculiarly American obsession with balancing compost heaps
though. You *really* have to work at it to get a compost heap not to
behave correctly if you are adding a cubic metre or so of stuff at a
time. The whole heap goes hot and rots down fast no matter what you put
on. Woody thick stems do need mixing in with something nitrogen rich -
but grass cuttings will do the job just as well as anything else.

A hot heap with a lot of grass cuttings on *will* smell of short chain
fatty acids during the fast stage breakdown - slightly sweet stale BO
smell for a few days. And one of mostly pine needles and trimmed conifer
branches will smell of oil of wintergreen. You can get it to smouldering
internally in a big heap. Provided that you don't crush the air out of
it you can get fast composting this way with almost any mixture of
materials added. You might at the start of a season need to feed it with
a starter culture - particularly for a small garden.

If you manage to make it anaerobic wet and slimy then you will get a
reducing environment and ammonia gas emitted, but otherwise the fungi
and bacteria can pretty much look after themselves and turn your urea
into bound ammonium salts. There will always be a slight smell during
compsoting so you don't want the heaps too near the house!

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

The main one is make sure the heap stays suitably moist (not wet) and
hot. This means a heap size and shape that is roughly cubic. Ammonia is
very soluble and if there are short chain fatty acids around from the
decomposition of other material it will be bound as ammonium salts.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

In the early stages of composting any free ammonia should react with
some of the otherwise volatile short chain fatty acids. Both will smell
if they escape from the pile.

So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

Not worth the effort of covering it with soil. The thin top layer tends
to dry out and will need turning over but it gets burried next time you
cut the grass anyway.

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!).

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Oxidation to soluble nitrates and combining with short chain fatty acids
as slightly more stable ammonium salts.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Chuck Banshee wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:56:44 -0800, Billy wrote:
Most plants take up nitrogen primarily in the form of nitrate (NO3-)
• except in conditions where nitrifying bacteria don't grow well
(low pH, anaerobic). Then ammonia (NH4+) will be available for uptake

Now that's interesting!

Since it's compost we're working with, we don't know (yet) which plants
will be using the nitrogen.

So, I guess, we want the nitrogen as both a nitrate (NO3-) and as an
ammonia (NH4+).

I wonder how we know if a plant that we plan on fertilizing with this
compost uses its nitrogen as nitrates versus ammonia?

And, depending if we want more nitrates versus more ammonia, I wonder
what we'd need to do to tilt the chemical balance one way or the other?

As the article says, the reaction is driven by the pH; High pH -- NO3-,
Low pH -- NH4+

In general, annuals like high pH, and perennials like low pH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza
Another wrinkle that I haven't investigated much is mycorrhiza. A
symbiotic (generally mutualistic, but occasionally weakly pathogenic)
association between a fungus and the roots of a vascular plant.
----

You really don't need to worry about the NO3-/NH4+ ratios, because
healthy soils will feed your plants.

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb...l/dp/088192777
5/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1
(Available at a library near you.)

Chapter 1

What Is the Soil Food Web and Why Should Gardeners Care?
Most gardeners think of plants as only taking up nutrients through root
systems and feeding the leaves. Few realize that a great deal of the
energy that results from photosynthesis in the leaves is actually used
by plants to produce chemicals they secrete through their roots. These
secretions are known as exudates. A good analogy is perspiration, a
human's exudate.

Root exudates are in the form of carbohydrates (including sugars) and
proteins. Amazingly, their presence wakes up, attracts, and grows
specific beneficial bacteria and fungi living in the soil that subsist
on these exudates and the cellular material sloughed off as the plant's
root tips grow. All this secretion of exudates and sloughing-off of
cells takes place in the rhizosphere, a zone immediately around the
roots, extending out about a tenth of an inch, or a couple of
millimeters (1 millimeter = 1/25 inch). The rhizosphere, which can look
like a jelly or jam under the electron microscope, contains a constantly
changing mix of soil organisms, including bacteria, fungi, nematodes,
protozoa, and even larger organisms. All this “life" competes for the
exudates in the rhizosphere, or its water or mineral content.

At the bottom of the soil food web are bacteria and fungi, which are
attracted to and consume plant root exudates. In turn, they attract and
are eaten by bigger microbes, specifically nematodes and protozoa
(remember the amoebae, paramecia, flagellates, and ciliates you should
have studied in biology?), who eat bacteria and fungi (primarily for
carbon) to fuel their metabolic functions. Anything they don't need is
excreted as wastes, which plant roots are readily able to absorb as
nutrients. How convenient that this production of plant nutrients takes
place right in the rhizosphere, the site of root-nutrient absorption.

At the center of any viable soil food web are plants. Plants control the
food web for their own benefit, an amazing fact that is too little
understood and surely not appreciated by gardeners who are constantly
interfering with Nature's system. Studies indicate that individual
plants can control the numbers and the different kinds of fungi and
bacteria attracted to the rhizosphere by the exudates they produce.
During different times of the growing season, populations of rhizosphere
bacteria and fungi wax and wane, depending on the nutrient needs of the
plant and the exudates it produces.

Soil bacteria and fungi are like small bags of fertilizer, retaining in
their bodies nitrogen and other nutrients they gain from root exudates
and other organic matter (such as those sloughed-off root-tip cells).
Carrying on the analogy, soil protozoa and nematodes act as “fertilizer
spreaders" by releasing , the nutrients locked up in the bacteria and
fungi “fertilizer bags." The nematodes and protozoa in the soil come
along and eat the bacteria and fungi in the, rhizosphere. They digest
what they need to survive and excrete excess carbon and other nutrients
as waste.

Left to their own devices, then, plants produce exudates that attract
fungi and bacteria (and, ultimately, nematodes and protozoa); their
survival depends on the interplay between these microbes. It is a
completely natural system, the very same one that has fueled plants
since they evolved. Soil life provides the nutrients needed for plant
life, and plants initiate and fuel the cycle
by producing exudates.

Soil life creates soil structure

The protozoa and nematodes that feasted on the fungi and bacteria
attracted by plant exudates are in turn eaten by arthropods (animals
with segmented bodies, jointed appendages, and a hard outer covering
called an exoskeleton). Insects, spiders, even shrimp and lobsters are
arthropods. Soil arthropods eat each other and themselves are the food
of snakes, birds, moles, and other animals. Simply put, the soil is one
big fast-food restaurant. In the course of all this eating, members of a
soil food web move about in search of prey or protection, and while they
do, they have an impact on the soil.

Bacteria are so small they need to stick to things, or they will wash
away; to attach themselves, they produce a slime, the secondary result
of which is that individual soil particles are bound together (if the
concept is hard to grasp, think of the plaque produced overnight in your
mouth, which enables mouth bacteria to stick to your teeth). Fungal
hyphae, too, travel through soil particles, sticking to them and binding
them together, thread-like, into aggregates.

Worms, together with insect larvae and moles and other burrowing
animals, move through the soil in search of food and protection,
creating path-ways that allow air and water to enter and leave the soil.
Even microscopic fungi can help in this regard (see chapter 4). The soil
food web, then, in addition to providing nutrients to roots in the
rhizosphere, also helps create soil structu the activities of its
members bind soil particles together even as they provide for the
passage of air and water through the soil.

Soil life produces soil nutrients

When any member of a soil food web dies, it becomes fodder for other
members of the community. The nutrients in these bodies are passed on to
other members of the community. A larger predator may eat them alive, or
they may be decayed after they die. One way or the other, fungi and
bacteria get involved, be it decaying the organism directly or working
on the dung of the successful
eater. It makes no difference. Nutrients are preserved and eventually
are retained in the bodies of even the smallest fungi and bacteria. When
these are in the rhizosphere, they release nutrients in plant-available
form when they, in turn, are consumed or die.

Without this system, most important nutrients would drain from soil.
Instead, they are retained in the bodies of soil life. Here is the
gardener's truth: when you apply a chemical fertilizer, a tiny bit hits
the rhizosphere, where it is absorbed, but most of it continues to drain
through soil until it hits the water table. Not so with the nutrients
locked up inside soil organisms, a state known as immobilization; these
nutrients are eventually released as wastes, or mineralized. And when
the plants themselves die and are allowed to decay, the nutrients they
retained are again immobilized in the fungi and bacteria that consume
them.

The nutrient supply in the soil is influenced by soil life in other
ways. For example, worms pull organic matter into the soil, where it is
shredded by beetles and the larvae of other insects, opening it up for
fungal and bacterial decay. This worm activity provides yet more
nutrients for the soil community.
---

No man, or plant is an island.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:17:57 -0800, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...rines-peeing-o
n-taliban-corpses/

Back on the bottle and using your best best pre-primary vocabulary, eh
Shelly?
If you can refute any of my suggestions, please do, but don't bore the
adults here.

Sure seems like I'm the only one not ****ing ennui... you mental
masturbating billygoat!

David Hare-Scott wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:56:44 -0800, Billy wrote:
Most plants take up nitrogen primarily in the form of nitrate (NO3-)
• except in conditions where nitrifying bacteria don't grow well
(low pH, anaerobic). Then ammonia (NH4+) will be available for uptake

Now that's interesting!

Since it's compost we're working with, we don't know (yet) which
plants will be using the nitrogen.

i thought we were talking about urine?


So, I guess, we want the nitrogen as both a nitrate (NO3-) and as an
ammonia (NH4+).

I wonder how we know if a plant that we plan on fertilizing with this
compost uses its nitrogen as nitrates versus ammonia?

woodland, shrubs, perennials tend to like the
latter (roots fed via fungal activity). garden
veggie plants tend to like the former (yes
there are always exceptions ). all the
perennials around here are mulched and that is
how they are fed. we don't fertilize them but
they always bloom or grow well.


And, depending if we want more nitrates versus more ammonia, I wonder
what we'd need to do to tilt the chemical balance one way or the
other?

I don't think it is feasible to manage the situation down to that level of
detail in soil.

i say gardeners do it all the time.

look at how a forest functions, the pH is usually
more acidic, the organic materials tend to layer on
top (and not be mixed in). this favors fungal growth
and nutrient cycling (more ammonia). so if you have
a specific plant or garden that does better with the
lower pH (blueberries) then manage the soil by layering
organic materials on top and do not disturb the soil
much at all otherwise. i'd use shredded bark, leaves,
or pine needles (not exclusively pine needles).

to favor bacterial nutrient cycling adjust the
pH to neutral to slightly alkaline, mix the organic
materials into the soil (instead of layering them
on top) if the soil is too light and sandy also
take the opportunity to add some clay (encourages water
retention, but also adds more anaerobic pores for
nitrifying bacteria to colonize). planting legumes
with the proper innoculants will also boost the
nitrifying capacity of the soil (i much prefer this to
adding fertilizers). at the end of the growing season,
plant a cover crop (rye is a favorite) to soak up the
extra nitrogen. cut it back in the spring and then
plant.


songbird

On Jan 16, 3:43*pm, Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:
Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...of-marines...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pretty stupid though posting it on the internet.

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 (a.k.a. Shelly) brayed:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance


It is a peculiarly American obsession with balancing compost heaps
though.
By obsession you mean an efficiently run compost pile? Yeah, we can be
like that.
You *really* have to work at it to get a compost heap not to
behave correctly if you are adding a cubic metre or so of stuff at a
time. The whole heap goes hot and rots down fast no matter what you put
on. Woody thick stems do need mixing in with something nitrogen rich -
but grass cuttings will do the job just as well as anything else.

So you agree that a balance needs to be achieved between the brown (C),
and the green (N) components of the pile; say a C/N ratio somewhere
between 20 and 30.

A hot heap with a lot of grass cuttings on *will* smell of short chain
fatty acids during the fast stage breakdown - slightly sweet stale BO
smell for a few days. And one of mostly pine needles and trimmed conifer
branches will smell of oil of wintergreen. You can get it to smouldering
internally in a big heap. Provided that you don't crush the air out of
it you can get fast composting this way with almost any mixture of
materials added. You might at the start of a season need to feed it with
a starter culture - particularly for a small garden.

If you manage to make it anaerobic wet and slimy then you will get a
reducing environment and ammonia gas emitted, but otherwise the fungi
and bacteria can pretty much look after themselves and turn your urea
into bound ammonium salts. There will always be a slight smell during
compsoting so you don't want the heaps too near the house!

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

The main one is make sure the heap stays suitably moist (not wet) and
hot. This means a heap size and shape that is roughly cubic. Ammonia is
very soluble and if there are short chain fatty acids around from the
decomposition of other material it will be bound as ammonium salts.
Any citations on short chain fatty acids combining with ammonia in
compost piles?
In sheep rumens and colons, yeah, but compost piles?
Citation please.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

In the early stages of composting any free ammonia should react with
some of the otherwise volatile short chain fatty acids. Both will smell
if they escape from the pile.
If the NH3 is floating away, how do you bring these reactants together,
a hermetically sealed reaction chamber?
Ammonia is converted in the atmosphere into N2O, a very strong
greenhouse gas. As good stewards of the land, we should reduce our
production of ammonia (better control of compost pile).


So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

Not worth the effort of covering it with soil. The thin top layer tends
to dry out and will need turning over but it gets burried next time you
cut the grass anyway.

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!).

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Oxidation to soluble nitrates and combining with short chain fatty acids
as slightly more stable ammonium salts.

Regards,
Martin Brown
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:56:44 -0800, Billy wrote:
Most plants take up nitrogen primarily in the form of nitrate (NO3-)
• except in conditions where nitrifying bacteria don't grow well
(low pH, anaerobic). Then ammonia (NH4+) will be available for uptake

Now that's interesting!

Since it's compost we're working with, we don't know (yet) which
plants will be using the nitrogen.

So, I guess, we want the nitrogen as both a nitrate (NO3-) and as an
ammonia (NH4+).

I wonder how we know if a plant that we plan on fertilizing with this
compost uses its nitrogen as nitrates versus ammonia?

And, depending if we want more nitrates versus more ammonia, I wonder
what we'd need to do to tilt the chemical balance one way or the
other?

I don't think it is feasible to manage the situation down to that level of
detail in soil.

David

Feasible? No. Possible? Yes. Personally, I think that the degree of
control that Chuck wants, can only be found in hydroponics, not organic
gardening.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

In article ,
Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:17:57 -0800, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...-marines-peein
g-o
n-taliban-corpses/

Back on the bottle and using your best best pre-primary vocabulary, eh
Shelly?
If you can refute any of my suggestions, please do, but don't bore the
adults here.

Sure seems like I'm the only one not ****ing ennui... you mental
masturbating billygoat!

Well, since we are OT, WHAT do you have against Christians, Shelly?
----

From: Sheldon/Brooklyn1
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: I would like some feedback..
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT)

Christian wrote:
I own a business "Professional Pond Maintenance and Fish Care".

Your parents must have had high hopes for you to succeed in the
arts... you're not going to do well in business unless you change your
name.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

Billy writes:

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 (a.k.a. Shelly) brayed:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance


It is a peculiarly American obsession with balancing compost heaps
though.
By obsession you mean an efficiently run compost pile? Yeah, we can be
like that.

Are you calling me un-american?



I just pile stuff up and pull out what I can.
Once in a while I'll run into a cigarette pack or plastic toy
from the 1950s. Back in the pile it goes. You can never tell
when the right bacteria might show up.

Turn the pile over, add water? You've got to be kidding.
One of the nice things is that you can just let it lie there.

--
Dan Espen

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:13:57 -0800, Billy wrote:

I think that the degree of control that Chuck wants,
can only be found in hydroponics, not organic gardening.

I'm not actually trying to 'control' so much as not to 'waste'.

For example, if I didn't know better, I'd just pour the urea on the top
of the pile and leave it at that. But that would be a waste.

If I really wanted to control it, I'd 'inject' the urea ... but that's
too much work for a single home sized compost heap.

I'm content with simply covering the urea with moist soil, since that
seems to keep 90% of the nitrogen locked up instead of gassing out.

Like anything new ... it's a bunch of simple things that get us most of
the way there. So, I'll do the simplest things that work best.

It's more about not wasting ... and not doing something stupid or
counterproductive ... than about control.

Thanks for all the advice & viewpoints. I learned a lot!

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:02:12 -0800, Billy wrote:

Ammonia is converted in the atmosphere into N2O, a very strong
greenhouse gas. As good stewards of the land, we should reduce our
production of ammonia (better control of compost pile).

Now that's interesting.

Previously, the equation train went from urea [(NH2)2CO] to ammonium
carbonate [(NH4)2 CO3] to ammonium [2 NH4] and carbon dioxide [CO2 gas)]
& then I stopped at ammonia [NH3 gas] and water [H2O].

But I guess (from what you said above) some of that atmospheric ammonia
is converted to nitrous oxide (probably by oxidation of the ammonia?):
2 NH3 + 2 O2 → N2O + 3 H2O

Is that urea reaction path above correct yet?

Chuck Banshee found:
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage
(Brassica oleracea)––Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...esources/docs/
cabbage.pdf

my question is HOW best to keep the nitrogen in the compost from
turning into ammonia gases and simply venting away.

I have to ask why ? As an academic exercise? Not much reason to save
it. Urine is pretty cheap and fairly renewable for most of us. In a
compost pile I would let it go do it's job unhindered. Unless you test/
analyze your homebrew, hot or cold, your only guessing as to its
nutrient content. So the urine is just feedstock and not a nutrient
at this stage.

As for using urine in your soil, you and others gave some good info as
to how best to use. I did read excerpts from one of the Finnish
team's three experiments wherein “Surendra K. Pradhan, K. Holopainen
and Helvi Heinonen-Tanski of the University of Kuopio in Finland
collected human urine during the winter of 2007-2008 from several eco-
toilets in private homes. The urine was stored for about six months at
45 degrees F and tested for microbes and bacteria. The team mixed it
with wood ash collected from a household furnace, and found the
mixture was just as good as -- or better than -- conventional chemical
fertilizer.” So I would assume urine was relatively shelf stable for
at least that amount of time/temp. Here is a lead on her email if you
want to ask first hand: .

WA State's land grant site on Composting :
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fu...tals/index.htm

Another link that maybe helpful w/ your quest:
http://ciitn.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/pu...3&c_id=2007009

I do have to say that while the average person's urine maybe safe
there is increasing concern about Environmental Pharmaceutical
Persistent Pollutant (EPPP) which do show up in edible plant, albeit
in low doses. Always test or know your source well!

good luck

In article ,
Chuck Banshee wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:13:57 -0800, Billy wrote:

I think that the degree of control that Chuck wants,
can only be found in hydroponics, not organic gardening.

I'm not actually trying to 'control' so much as not to 'waste'.

For example, if I didn't know better, I'd just pour the urea on the top
of the pile and leave it at that. But that would be a waste.

If I really wanted to control it, I'd 'inject' the urea ... but that's
too much work for a single home sized compost heap.

I'm content with simply covering the urea with moist soil, since that
seems to keep 90% of the nitrogen locked up instead of gassing out.

Like anything new ... it's a bunch of simple things that get us most of
the way there. So, I'll do the simplest things that work best.

It's more about not wasting ... and not doing something stupid or
counterproductive ... than about control.

Thanks for all the advice & viewpoints. I learned a lot!

That being the case, I would apply the urea to the garden or pots and
then water it in. If you don't till your soil the mycorrhiza will spread
the the nutrients, including the nitrogen, around in the garden, and the
life and death cycles of the microbes you encourage will feed the plants.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953