On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:14:17 -0500, Frank wrote:
I'd also post in rec.gardens for someone there who knows more plant
biochemistry than me, but the urea in urine is no different from urea
used in fertilizer. Sometimes pure ammonia is injected into soil as
fertilizer and as you point out, water will hold it there.

I switched the sci.chem to rec.gardens. Thanks for the advice.

Googling for a comparison paper of urea fertilizer and urine, I found
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
"Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage - Impacts on
Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality".

Interestingly, as you intimated, they found that the urine was as good or
better than the commercial stuff.

More interesting to the point, they recommended 'no more than 6 months'
storage of the collected urine! I'm amazed as everything else I read said
that the urine should be used within 24 hours because of ammonia (gas)
formation.

I'm sure it works - but - I want to better understand the whole process
so that the maximum nitrogen gets into the compost as usable nitrogen and
not vented to the atmosphere as ammonia.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:02:23 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage
(Brassica oleracea)––Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

I find it suspect that they found the urine-fertilized cabbage tasted
'better', as I would have expected no differences between commercially
fertilized and organically fertilized (i.e., urine-fertilized) cabbage.

Still - my question is HOW best to keep the nitrogen in the compost from
turning into ammonia gases and simply venting away.

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:02:23 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage
(Brassica oleracea)––Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor
Quality

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

I find it suspect that they found the urine-fertilized cabbage tasted
'better', as I would have expected no differences between commercially
fertilized and organically fertilized (i.e., urine-fertilized)
cabbage.

Still - my question is HOW best to keep the nitrogen in the compost
from turning into ammonia gases and simply venting away.

Interesting question. The conversion from urea, uric acid etc to ammonia is
going to be done by some microbe. I think the risk is that if you make the
environment unsuitable for that class of microbes it will be unsuitable for
others that are more useful. Another possibility is to try to bind the
ammonia so it isn't lost as a gas. Ammonium ions ought to bind to clay and
humus colloids which have significant cation exchange capacity. Also cold
composting, maintaining it damp and ensuring the pH isn't too high will all
reduce the loss of ammonia to the air.

I think the widespread use of urine as fertiliser is limited by lack of a
suitable collection mechanisms and the yuck factor. The latter is composed
of the reaction to the smell and the belief that it is "dirty". The yuck
factor is a big issue. People are often aghast at the idea of water derived
from treated sewerage being used in the normal water reticulation system,
despite evidence that the water would be as safe or safer than collected
ground water.

The smell issue is commonly accepted as not a show stopper when using
manures. Poultry manure or poultry bedding which contains large amounts of
manure can produce a most revolting stench far worse than human urine but
this doesn't stop them being used at least in agricultural settings. If I
lived in a built-up area I would be restricted in using such fertilisers due
to having regard for neighbours.

If you ask Mr or Ms Public is urine safe to use on the garden they will
probably tell you that you can catch diseases from it. This isn't true in
general. It may possibly be true if the donor has a urinary tract
infection, such a person would very probably be aware of the illness and so
should cease donating until they are well. In the absence of such an
infection fresh urine in sterile. It could also become infected if stored
in such a way that it became a growth medium for microbes that originated
elsewhere. If you are adding it to your compost or even directly to the
soil this is hardly likely to be an issue. As the article points out the
few pathogens found cannot easily get into the cabbages. Bring up your kids
to pee on the lemon tree!

As the price of oil (and so synthetic nitrogenous fertilisers) goes up we
may find some creative person who can find a way to collect urine cheaply
instead of sending it down our rivers and out to sea and then having to use
power to fix atmospheric nitrogen in its place.

David

In article ,
Chuck Banshee wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:02:23 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage
(Brassica oleracea)––Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

I find it suspect that they found the urine-fertilized cabbage tasted
'better', as I would have expected no differences between commercially
fertilized and organically fertilized (i.e., urine-fertilized) cabbage.

Still - my question is HOW best to keep the nitrogen in the compost from
turning into ammonia gases and simply venting away.

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...liban-corpses/

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance
Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

It's uncalled for to attack someone's unsubstantiated theory as 'dumb
billgoat' as there may be a basis in fact to the original statement ...

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!).

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Thanks all!

In article ,
Chuck Banshee wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance
Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

It's uncalled for to attack someone's unsubstantiated theory as 'dumb
billgoat' as there may be a basis in fact to the original statement ...

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!).

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Thanks all!

Urine has a fertilizer value of N/P/K 18:2:5.
Wow!


Plant Physiology

Nitrogen assimilation and fixation

Availability of nitrogen to plants is often a limiting factor in growth
and productivity
• despite the fact that N2 is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere
Nitrogen can exist in pools of different chemical forms, nitrogen cycle

• reduction of N2 to ammonia=nitrogen fixation (bacteria, lightning,
industrial)

• ammonia is oxidized to nitrite, then nitrate=nitrification (by
some bacteria)

• organics are converted to ammonia=ammonification (by bacteria &
fungi)

• nitrate is reduced to N2, returned to the
atmosphere=denitrification (bacteria)
In taking up and utilizing nitrogen, plants incorporate it into
carbon-nitrogen compounds
Most plants take up nitrogen primarily in the form of nitrate (NO3-)

• except in conditions where nitrifying bacteria don't grow well
(low pH, anaerobic)

• then ammonia (NH4+) will be available for uptake

• many forest species take up primarily NH4+, since forest soils are
more acidic (less nitrification)

• NH4+ leaches less than NO3-, since NH4+ adheres to soil colloids
NO3- is actively transported into and concentrated in the cells by a
NO3- / H+ carrier (symporter)
Assimilation:
NO3- is reduced to nitrite (NO2-) by nitrate reductase using NADH

• addition of NO3- induces the expression of nitrate reductase
(regulated at transcription and enzyme activity)

• nitrate reductase has Mo, heme, and FAD cofactors (Mo deficiency
can lead to N deficiency)
NO2- is reduced to ammonium (NH4+) by nitrite reductase using ferredoxin
(Fd)

• nitrite reductase has Fe-S and heme cofactors

• located in plastids
NH4+ is incorporated into carbon compounds: amides (amino acids) and
ureides
Incorporation into amino acids is primarily by the GS-GOGAT pathway
GS-GOGAT cycle
2 glutamate + 2 NH4+ + 2 ATP - 2 glutamine + 2 ADP

• enzyme is glutamine synthetase (GS)
glutamine + alpha ketoglutarate + NAD(P)H - 2 glutamate + NAD(P)+

• enzyme is glutamate synthase (GOGAT)
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

On Jan 16, 11:47*am, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance
Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

It's uncalled for to attack someone's unsubstantiated theory as 'dumb
billgoat' as there may be a basis in fact to the original statement ...

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
-http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/AG_283.pdf
-http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/calculus_resources/docs/cabbage.pdf
-http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/materials/ManagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!)..

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Thanks all!

Don't know if the ways to reduce N losses are "better" rather than
just different.

Diluttion, watering in & cultivation are mentioned along with some
chemical techniques.

http://wesnetindia.org/fileadmin/att...Harvesting.pdf

cheers
Bob

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:43:58 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

It's uncalled for to attack someone's unsubstantiated theory as 'dumb
billgoat' as there may be a basis in fact to the original statement ...

It is a peculiarly American obsession with balancing compost heaps
though. You *really* have to work at it to get a compost heap not to
behave correctly if you are adding a cubic metre or so of stuff at a
time. The whole heap goes hot and rots down fast no matter what you put
on. Woody thick stems do need mixing in with something nitrogen rich -
but grass cuttings will do the job just as well as anything else.

A hot heap with a lot of grass cuttings on *will* smell of short chain
fatty acids during the fast stage breakdown - slightly sweet stale BO
smell for a few days. And one of mostly pine needles and trimmed conifer
branches will smell of oil of wintergreen. You can get it to smouldering
internally in a big heap. Provided that you don't crush the air out of
it you can get fast composting this way with almost any mixture of
materials added. You might at the start of a season need to feed it with
a starter culture - particularly for a small garden.

If you manage to make it anaerobic wet and slimy then you will get a
reducing environment and ammonia gas emitted, but otherwise the fungi
and bacteria can pretty much look after themselves and turn your urea
into bound ammonium salts. There will always be a slight smell during
compsoting so you don't want the heaps too near the house!

However, in this thread, we're only looking for scientifically proven
data for preventing the nitrogen in urea from gassing off as ammonia.

The main one is make sure the heap stays suitably moist (not wet) and
hot. This means a heap size and shape that is roughly cubic. Ammonia is
very soluble and if there are short chain fatty acids around from the
decomposition of other material it will be bound as ammonium salts.

So, while I won't believe the 25:1 ratio above until/unless scientific
evidence shows it to be be true, I 'can' believe what was implied in the
following references:
- http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf
- http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf
- http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/...nagingUrea.pdf

Basically, these documents tell us from 50% to 90% of the nitrogen in
urea is lost to the atmosphere (as ammonia) when urine is simply poured
on top of the compost pile and left there.

The reason is that some of the urea [(NH2)2CO] is first turned to
ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3] and then into ammonium [2NH4] and gaseous
carbon dioxide [(CO2 gas)] & finally into gaseous ammonia [(NH3] and
water [H2O].

The goal is to force that nitrogen that would otherwise gas off, to
recombine into compounds (nitrates?) that plants can use. I haven't
figured out 'what' compounds these would be - so if you have papers on
that, it would be useful to know.

In the early stages of composting any free ammonia should react with
some of the otherwise volatile short chain fatty acids. Both will smell
if they escape from the pile.

So far, to minimize the nitrogen gassing, I will employ two techniques:
- I'll maintain the moistness of the compost heap (by sprinkling water)
- I'll cover the heap in clean soil (as I do anyway to deter vermin)

Not worth the effort of covering it with soil. The thin top layer tends
to dry out and will need turning over but it gets burried next time you
cut the grass anyway.

If anyone finds a BETTER way to forestall nitrogen evaporation in urea-
enhanced composting, please cite how (references are always appreciated!).

And, if you know WHAT the process is that converts the nitrogen to useful
compounds for the plants, I'd like to know also.

Oxidation to soluble nitrates and combining with short chain fatty acids
as slightly more stable ammonium salts.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Brooklyn1 wrote:
Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is
about 25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the
needs of the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound
in the proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will
be released at a use able rate for the plants during the
microorganisms' life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of
nitrogen, cover its source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e.
compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?

A contribution of exactly zero, about standard. You don't have any ideas so
you just throw whatever is handy and childishly mess with people's names to
manufacture an insult, I haven't seen that technique since primary school.
But you are not a child who may be forgiven for not knowing better.

As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...liban-corpses/

Spending your life searching usenet and www for somebody you can be rude to
or about. Seeking opportunities to show your ignorance and ugly attitudes.
You clearly live a very arid empty life.

David

In article ,
Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...rines-peeing-o
n-taliban-corpses/

Back on the bottle and using your best best pre-primary vocabulary, eh
Shelly?
If you can refute any of my suggestions, please do, but don't bore the
adults here with your infantile cry for attention.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:17:57 -0800, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:
http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...rines-peeing-o
n-taliban-corpses/

Back on the bottle and using your best best pre-primary vocabulary, eh
Shelly?
If you can refute any of my suggestions, please do, but don't bore the
adults here.

Sure seems like I'm the only one not ****ing ennui... you mental
masturbating billygoat!

On Jan 16, 3:43*pm, Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:
Billygoat wrote:
Schmuck Banchee wrote:
Chuck Banshee wrote:

I found Use of Human Urine Fertilizer.

I forgot to post the URL to the scientific paper:
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...cs/cabbage.pdf

If the ratio of brown to green additives to your compost pile is about
25/1, you pile won't smell as it will be in balance with the needs of
the composting microorganisms. Then the urea will be bound in the
proteins of the flora and fauna of the soil ecology, and will be
released at a use able rate for the plants during the microorganisms'
life/death cycles. To insure the minimum lost of nitrogen, cover its
source with mulch that is kept damp, i.e. compost in situe.

Got anymore dumb billygoat theorys?
As Triumph would say, "I poop on you!"
Best use of pee:http://www.therightscoop.com/allen-w...of-marines...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pretty stupid though posting it on the internet.

Chuck Banshee found:
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage
(Brassica oleracea)––Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality
http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/ca...esources/docs/
cabbage.pdf

my question is HOW best to keep the nitrogen in the compost from
turning into ammonia gases and simply venting away.

I have to ask why ? As an academic exercise? Not much reason to save
it. Urine is pretty cheap and fairly renewable for most of us. In a
compost pile I would let it go do it's job unhindered. Unless you test/
analyze your homebrew, hot or cold, your only guessing as to its
nutrient content. So the urine is just feedstock and not a nutrient
at this stage.

As for using urine in your soil, you and others gave some good info as
to how best to use. I did read excerpts from one of the Finnish
team's three experiments wherein “Surendra K. Pradhan, K. Holopainen
and Helvi Heinonen-Tanski of the University of Kuopio in Finland
collected human urine during the winter of 2007-2008 from several eco-
toilets in private homes. The urine was stored for about six months at
45 degrees F and tested for microbes and bacteria. The team mixed it
with wood ash collected from a household furnace, and found the
mixture was just as good as -- or better than -- conventional chemical
fertilizer.” So I would assume urine was relatively shelf stable for
at least that amount of time/temp. Here is a lead on her email if you
want to ask first hand: .

WA State's land grant site on Composting :
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fu...tals/index.htm

Another link that maybe helpful w/ your quest:
http://ciitn.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/pu...3&c_id=2007009

I do have to say that while the average person's urine maybe safe
there is increasing concern about Environmental Pharmaceutical
Persistent Pollutant (EPPP) which do show up in edible plant, albeit
in low doses. Always test or know your source well!

good luck

On 1/15/2012 8:02 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:14:17 -0500, Frank wrote:
I'd also post in rec.gardens for someone there who knows more plant
biochemistry than me, but the urea in urine is no different from urea
used in fertilizer. Sometimes pure ammonia is injected into soil as
fertilizer and as you point out, water will hold it there.

I switched the sci.chem to rec.gardens. Thanks for the advice.

Googling for a comparison paper of urea fertilizer and urine, I found
this interesting paper from the Journal of Agricultural and Food
Chemistry, 2007, 55, pages 8657-8663 titled:
"Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage - Impacts on
Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality".

Interestingly, as you intimated, they found that the urine was as good or
better than the commercial stuff.

More interesting to the point, they recommended 'no more than 6 months'
storage of the collected urine! I'm amazed as everything else I read said
that the urine should be used within 24 hours because of ammonia (gas)
formation.

I'm sure it works - but - I want to better understand the whole process
so that the maximum nitrogen gets into the compost as usable nitrogen and
not vented to the atmosphere as ammonia.


This may help a little:

http://extension.usu.edu/files/publi...ion/AG_283.pdf

Nothing wrong with sci.chem posting, chemist I think may comment goes to
both.