I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

pile shredded stuff over it and water it well.

if you are talking about a large area, hmm, guess i
would tackle it in parts by covering it with whatever
i could find and then watering it. making the most
effort around plants i wanted to save.


songbird

On 1/11/2014 12:47 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.


With a hose-end sprayer, apply a mix of water and mild, unscented liquid
soap. The soap will act as a wetting agent. You want it unscented so
that it does not attract bees, hornets, and wasps.

After you get the soil a bit damp, apply a generous amount of gypsum.
Lightly water the gypsum to just damp it and prevent it from blowing in
the wind. Two days later, water it a bit more to start disolving it but
without any runoff. Two days after that, water it well (but not to the
point of runoff) to start leaching it into the soil.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 12:47:25 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of

watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an

extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at

normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.



How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?

This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I

shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure

since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I

also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to

find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return

eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

How big is the area? If feasible,use a pick axe or mattock to break up at least the first few inches so slow long watering can start to penetrate.
Guaranteed sore back and muscles, but a virtuous feeling of accomplishment.
Worst comes to worst, pay a local teenager to do it.

HB

On 12/01/2014 11:40 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 1/11/2014 12:47 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.


With a hose-end sprayer, apply a mix of water and mild, unscented liquid
soap. The soap will act as a wetting agent. You want it unscented so
that it does not attract bees, hornets, and wasps.

I had wondered if using old fashioned clothes washing soap agitated in
water till I got a froth of bubbles on the surface of the water would
work.

I guess that liquid hand soap or possibly even kitchen dish detergent
would also work, but then again, what about (future) worms I ask myself.



After you get the soil a bit damp, apply a generous amount of gypsum.
Lightly water the gypsum to just damp it and prevent it from blowing in
the wind. Two days later, water it a bit more to start disolving it but
without any runoff. Two days after that, water it well (but not to the
point of runoff) to start leaching it into the soil.

Does Gypsum work as a wetting agent in some way?

I'll give that a try - I've got a spot where I intend to plant a bush
once cooler weather comes as Autumn approaches and that I should start
preparing now so your method sounds like it's work a try. I'll report
on how I get on.

On 12/01/2014 9:04 AM, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

pile shredded stuff over it and water it well.

Sadly that doesn't work. All the water does is to run off below the
mulch/shredded stuff on top. I'll give a specific example even though
it applies in many places in my garden

I planted some blueberry bushes this year and although they are coping
with the heat and baking sunlight and even growing a bit and putting on
new leaves slowly, I decided that they needed a larger root run rather
than the area close to their newly planted holes.

They've always had a big area of mulch around them but I tried to water
over the bigger area and all the water did was to run off once the
watering extended beyond the 'saucer' area in which the bushes had been
planted.

Where you live, you probably need to plant on mounds so that water round
the roots runs off, here it's imperative to plant in saucer shaped
depressions to keep water near the roots.


if you are talking about a large area, hmm, guess i
would tackle it in parts by covering it with whatever
i could find and then watering it. making the most
effort around plants i wanted to save.


songbird

On 12/01/2014 12:42 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 12:47:25 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of

watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an

extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at

normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.



How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?

This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I

shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure

since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I

also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to

find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return

eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

How big is the area?

Smallish in some places such as round some specific plants such as the
blueberries I mentioned in another response, but in some areas it's bed
sized. I'm really only going to concentrate on the more endangered
areas at the moment - it's too darned hot to do anything more enervating.

If feasible,use a pick axe or mattock to break up at least the first few
inches so slow long watering can start to penetrate.

The soil isn't compacted and can easily be turned with a fork or spade
so opening it up isn't an issue.

I've tried the long slow watering and I can't understand where the
sodding water goes. About 2mm on the top is moist even after a couple
of hours of watering and below that the soil is like dust. It's almost
like I'm watering some crop in China through some secret hidden pipe
that is stealing my water.

Making mud pies using a hand trowel and stirring as I water with a hand
held hose works, but for some reason the long slow watering (which I too
think SHOULD work) doesn't seem to.

Guaranteed sore back and muscles, but a virtuous feeling of accomplishment.
Worst comes to worst, pay a local teenager to do it.

:-)) I do agree about the great feeling that gives. I have a number of
'mattocks' that are recycled, welded up then sharpened bitzers that are
made from the leaf springs from cars. They are superb to use even for a
woman of my years. I can swing one or other of them for hours and not
feel any ill effects unlike the big, real mattock that we have stuffed
in the back of the shed somewhere.

On 1/12/2014 2:48 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 12/01/2014 11:40 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 1/11/2014 12:47 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.


With a hose-end sprayer, apply a mix of water and mild, unscented liquid
soap. The soap will act as a wetting agent. You want it unscented so
that it does not attract bees, hornets, and wasps.

I had wondered if using old fashioned clothes washing soap agitated in
water till I got a froth of bubbles on the surface of the water would
work.

I guess that liquid hand soap or possibly even kitchen dish detergent
would also work, but then again, what about (future) worms I ask myself.



After you get the soil a bit damp, apply a generous amount of gypsum.
Lightly water the gypsum to just damp it and prevent it from blowing in
the wind. Two days later, water it a bit more to start disolving it but
without any runoff. Two days after that, water it well (but not to the
point of runoff) to start leaching it into the soil.

Does Gypsum work as a wetting agent in some way?

I'll give that a try - I've got a spot where I intend to plant a bush
once cooler weather comes as Autumn approaches and that I should start
preparing now so your method sounds like it's work a try. I'll report
on how I get on.

No, gypsum is not a wetting agent. The original message in this thread
mentioned soil that has very poor tilth (soil structure). Gypsum
(calcium sulphate) reacts with compacted soil -- especially clay -- to
make it porous and granular, to improve tilth.

If you can dissolve gypsum and get the solution to penetrate the soil,
you should find that subsequent watering attempts should be successful.
That is why I suggested starting with liquid soap as a wetting agent
and then applying gypsum. First get the soil damp (wetting agent).
Then apply gypsum and get it moist only enough to keep it in place in
case there is wind. Then start it dissolving. Finally, rinse it into
the soil. This can take 2-3 weeks. At each step, try to avoid any
runoff.



--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Fran Farmer wrote:
....
Sadly that doesn't work. All the water does is to run off below the
mulch/shredded stuff on top. I'll give a specific example even though
it applies in many places in my garden

I planted some blueberry bushes this year and although they are coping
with the heat and baking sunlight and even growing a bit and putting on
new leaves slowly, I decided that they needed a larger root run rather
than the area close to their newly planted holes.

They've always had a big area of mulch around them but I tried to water
over the bigger area and all the water did was to run off once the
watering extended beyond the 'saucer' area in which the bushes had been
planted.

scrape a bit of an edge up to hold the water in or
make the saucers larger?


Where you live, you probably need to plant on mounds so that water round
the roots runs off, here it's imperative to plant in saucer shaped
depressions to keep water near the roots.

yes, most of the plants here need dryer than what they
get and the risks of flooding make it pretty normal for
us to put most plants up on hills or mounds or raised
beds.

from what you wrote in the other response you have
a lot of fine dust. that would be tough to get
wetted again.

i'd still make sure there was mulch on top and then
make sure to spray that mulch (not putting water through
it) so that it can slowly drip down on the soil below.
from your description you say the water goes right
through the mulch and runs off the soil. to me that
says you are using too much water and pouring it
through the mulch. instead, use a fine mist to keep
wetting the mulch. spray it several times a day.


songbird

Fran Farmer wrote:

:-)) I do agree about the great feeling that gives. I have a number
of 'mattocks' that are recycled, welded up then sharpened bitzers
that are made from the leaf springs from cars. They are superb to
use even for a woman of my years. I can swing one or other of them
for hours and not feel any ill effects unlike the big, real mattock
that we have stuffed in the back of the shed somewhere.

We get backpackers working here sometimes. Most of them are good workers
and we try to match the work to their capabilities. We had a young lady
from Japan who weighed in at about 41kgs (85lbs for those who live in the
boonies). At one point I handed her a mattock which she managed to hang on
to with difficulty and then she very politley asked what did I expect her to
do with it. I recovered my senses and took it back and gave her trowel. A
while later a strapping Austrian lad (whose hero was Arnie Swarzzennegger)
declared " I liiiike to diiiig". I thought to myself, I have just the thing
for you my boy.

D

Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

i asked some other folks what they would do and
i have gotten several different replies:

- mixing water and molasses at 10-20:1 ratio.

- adding compost and mixing it with the top layer of
soil. i suspect adding moist compost would be even
better.

- using more compost to cover the gardens once it is
moist again to keep the moisture there from escaping
easily.

- bentonite clay (not sure why anyone would add clay
to dusty soil, but perhaps it would help make granules
or clumps)

- which i think is what gypsum would do too for that
type of soil but i've never had to deal with that myself
so i can't speak from direct experience.

how is it going? making progress?


songbird

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:42:19 PM UTC-8, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 12:47:25 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of



watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an



extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at



normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.







How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?



This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I



shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure



since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I



also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to



find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return



eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.



How big is the area? If feasible,use a pick axe or mattock to break up at least the first few inches so slow long watering can start to penetrate.

Guaranteed sore back and muscles, but a virtuous feeling of accomplishment.

Worst comes to worst, pay a local teenager to do it.



HB

Sounds like my brute force suggestion just rolled off (couldn't resist) the scientific wetting agent proponents.

HB

Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss, and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no magic
bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a garden hose
only demonstrates gross laziness.

Brooklyn1 wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot
of watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to
such an extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all
attempts at normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving
fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud
pies? This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason
why I shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil
structure since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry
as a chip. I also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've
never been able to find out what it does to earth worms and I know
they will return eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and
the weather cools.

Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss,

Peat moss! Far too expensive. Why use an expensive limited resource like
peat that must be transported long distances (Fran is Southern highlands NSW
and the nearest peat bogs are in Tasmania) when some other local source of
organic material will do as well and be much cheaper. Peat moss is not
available cheaply around the world, stop being so parochical.


and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no magic
bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a garden hose
only demonstrates gross laziness.

Why is it that even when seeming to be helpful you must put your strange
insulting slant on everything. You know nothing about people but offer them
gratuitious insult anyway. If Fran is anything like the farming women I
know round here she has been working from daylight til dark these last 50
years and is only now slowing down as her body just can't do it any more.
regardless of the that you are such an ignorant, boorish oaf. Come back
when you can be civil.

David

On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:07:31 +1100, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

Brooklyn1 wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot
of watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to
such an extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all
attempts at normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving
fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud
pies? This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason
why I shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil
structure since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry
as a chip. I also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've
never been able to find out what it does to earth worms and I know
they will return eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and
the weather cools.

Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss,

Peat moss! Far too expensive. Why use an expensive limited resource like
peat that must be transported long distances (Fran is Southern highlands NSW
and the nearest peat bogs are in Tasmania) when some other local source of
organic material will do as well and be much cheaper. Peat moss is not
available cheaply around the world, stop being so parochical.


and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no magic
bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a garden hose
only demonstrates gross laziness.

Why is it that even when seeming to be helpful you must put your strange
insulting slant on everything. You know nothing about people but offer them
gratuitious insult anyway. If Fran is anything like the farming women I
know round here she has been working from daylight til dark these last 50
years and is only now slowing down as her body just can't do it any more.
regardless of the that you are such an ignorant, boorish oaf. Come back
when you can be civil.

David

STFU, invalid!