Brooklyn1 wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:07:31 +1100, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

Brooklyn1 wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a
lot of watering, there are some places where the soil has dried
out to such an extent that it's now baked and water repellant and
all attempts at normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are
proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud
pies? This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some
reason why I shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of
soil structure since where there is none to begin with once it's
as dry as a chip. I also do not like using soil wetting agents
since I've never been able to find out what it does to earth worms
and I know they will return eventually, once it rains or the
winter comes and the weather cools.

Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss,

Peat moss! Far too expensive. Why use an expensive limited
resource like peat that must be transported long distances (Fran is
Southern highlands NSW and the nearest peat bogs are in Tasmania)
when some other local source of organic material will do as well and
be much cheaper. Peat moss is not available cheaply around the
world, stop being so parochical.


and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no
magic bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a
garden hose only demonstrates gross laziness.

Why is it that even when seeming to be helpful you must put your
strange insulting slant on everything. You know nothing about
people but offer them gratuitious insult anyway. If Fran is
anything like the farming women I know round here she has been
working from daylight til dark these last 50 years and is only now
slowing down as her body just can't do it any more. regardless of
the that you are such an ignorant, boorish oaf. Come back when you
can be civil.

David

STFU, invalid!

Back in the bozobin for you.

On 15/01/2014 10:06 AM, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

i asked some other folks what they would do and
i have gotten several different replies:

- mixing water and molasses at 10-20:1 ratio.

Now that sounds interesting. I'm wondering if they suggested molasses
because it would help with keeping/fostering biota?????

I have a massive drum of molasses in the shearing shed which is a left
over from when there were horses here. I'll hunt it out and give it a try.

- adding compost and mixing it with the top layer of
soil. i suspect adding moist compost would be even
better.

- using more compost to cover the gardens once it is
moist again to keep the moisture there from escaping
easily.

Both of those make good sense, The latter suggestion is similar to my
'mud pie' making tactics so I know that will work.

- bentonite clay (not sure why anyone would add clay
to dusty soil, but perhaps it would help make granules
or clumps)

That suggestion is interesting too but all I know about Bentonite is
that it is traditionally used to stop leaks in dams ('ponds' in USian??)
if a farm has a leaking dam, bags of bentonite are poured in to stop
the leak.

- which i think is what gypsum would do too for that
type of soil but i've never had to deal with that myself
so i can't speak from direct experience.

how is it going? making progress?

I'd say a tentative 'yes'. I've been gradually going round and paying
close attention to spots within areas where he just applies a blanket
watering. Working as a team seems to be a bit more effective in getting
water to the really precious things but it's still just about survival
and I'm not expecting things to do any thriving - that would be a
bridge too far.

We got a bit of rain yesterday (Hallellula!) and so that will help.
Nothing, but nothing can ever replace the effectiveness of rain. I
suspect the only thing to do from now on is to completely cover the more
sensitive growing area (veg) with shade cloth in high summer and either
never go away for more than a few days, or just admit that it's time to
move to the burbs or bring in a bulldozer and get rid of the lot and
then lay down pebbles.

On 13/01/2014 11:06 AM, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:


from what you wrote in the other response you have
a lot of fine dust. that would be tough to get
wetted again.

Yep, dust is it. And anything vegetative mixed into the soil or on top
of the soil is like it's been discovered in an ancient tomb so it's dry
to the point of total desiccation.


i'd still make sure there was mulch on top and then
make sure to spray that mulch (not putting water through
it) so that it can slowly drip down on the soil below.
from your description you say the water goes right
through the mulch and runs off the soil. to me that
says you are using too much water and pouring it
through the mulch. instead, use a fine mist to keep
wetting the mulch. spray it several times a day.

Tried both of those in the past with the exception of the 'several times
a day' - it's morning and/or evening only in our summer conditions and
even then unless it's overcast and there is no wind, microsprays are a
very 'iffy' use of water - almost always a waste of time and for some
reason mulch just adds to the problem when it's already dry under the
mulch. I don't really understand why the mulch doesn't help but it
doesn't until the soil is moist and then it can do it's traditional soil
protecting job.

We seem to be getting there slowly but progress is not fast. Mud pies
making still seem to be the most effective method with the most
threatened smaller plants but I am worried about some of the trees.

On 16/01/2014 9:07 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Brooklyn1 wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot
of watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to
such an extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all
attempts at normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving
fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud
pies? This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason
why I shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil
structure since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry
as a chip. I also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've
never been able to find out what it does to earth worms and I know
they will return eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and
the weather cools.

Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss,

Peat moss! Far too expensive. Why use an expensive limited resource
like peat that must be transported long distances (Fran is Southern
highlands NSW and the nearest peat bogs are in Tasmania)

:-)) I wish I WAS in the Southern Highlands of NSW.

That is where I was when my garden dried out despite Himself's good
efforts.

We live even further south than the Highlands. We live in the
Tablelands and I am pea green with envy at the growing conditions in the
Southern Highlands. They have basalt soil and regular rainfall and, to
put the icing on the cake, nighttime mists in summer. Not only do they
have moist growing conditions in great soil but it's also cool enough to
sleep at night. Lucky sods, but then they do pay for it given the price
of all the real estate round there.


when some other
local source of organic material will do as well and be much cheaper.
Peat moss is not available cheaply around the world, stop being so
parochical.


and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no magic
bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a garden hose
only demonstrates gross laziness.

Why is it that even when seeming to be helpful you must put your strange
insulting slant on everything. You know nothing about people but offer
them gratuitious insult anyway.

I've read and responded to posts from Sheldon in various newsgroups for
about 15 years - maybe more. In one of the previous newsgroups we both
used to post to (misc.rural), I wrote quite often about our farm and our
animals and other aspects of my life. Sheldon obviously doesn't
remember that.

In contrast, I have paid some attention and still possess some retentive
memory so I know that Sheldon cooks for himself (but nothing that I
would consider to be challenging or out of the ordinary), lives on a
nice, neatly kept piece of land, that he lives fairly quietly on his
land, that he regularly attends to maintenance tasks and seems to enjoy
doing so, that he is not lazy, that he is interested in birds and
wildlife, takes nice pics quite often and posts them for others to see
also quite often, that he likes to own and use PTO driven devices to
help keep his land neat and that we've never thought we would ever need
even though we live in a place that is officially recognised by the Tax
Office as a being a real, money earning 'farm'.

I also know from having read him for so long that he regularly makes
gratuitously offensive sexual references that most men I know would also
find offensive. He's a curmudgeon. He seems to go out of his way to
try to be insulting and frequently insists that others need to do things
his way and that others need to possess all the tools and boy's toys he
feels the need to own.

He's never been the least bit subtle in his insults and so, in my
opinion, is not very effective because of his transparency.

If Fran is anything like the farming
women I know round here she has been working from daylight til dark
these last 50 years and is only now slowing down as her body just can't
do it any more.

:-)) Well in many ways (chooks, food growing/preserving, garden,
cooking, cattle work, fencing, shelter belt planting) I am like many
farm wives. But I also went out to full time work and earned very good
money for many years. We both did, which of course is why we can still
manage to live on cattle producing land in retirement.

Fran Farmer wrote:
songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot of
watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to such an
extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all attempts at
normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud pies?
This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason why I
shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil structure
since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry as a chip. I
also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've never been able to
find out what it does to earth worms and I know they will return
eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and the weather cools.

i asked some other folks what they would do and
i have gotten several different replies:

- mixing water and molasses at 10-20:1 ratio.

Now that sounds interesting. I'm wondering if they suggested molasses
because it would help with keeping/fostering biota?????

I have a massive drum of molasses in the shearing shed which is a left
over from when there were horses here. I'll hunt it out and give it a try.

let us know if it does seem to make any difference.

i'm not sure what their reasoning was other than
perhaps it would help as a wetting and clumping agent.
encouraging biota would be the great side benefit.
that you have it on hand is great. i'll be listening...


this morning i was feeding the worm bins (nos 5
through 15) to get them ramped up for spring. i had
stuff from garlic, and a whole bucket of chopped dried
alfalfa and trefoil, along with the usual veggie
scraps. after a bit i decided to take a few cups of
the worm castings and put them on top of the potted
plants i'd recently repotted, to give the potting
soil a boost of bacteria, fungi and perhaps a few very
tiny worms. after doing that and watering them well
i was rinsing out the small container i used and was
thinking of you down there trying to get very fine
soil to wet and how nice those little worm castings
were staying together even though they were soaking
in water. so for the longer term, encourage worms
however you can. they'll clump some of that dusty
soil together.

i also had someone post a short article about how
some of what happen with superdry dusty soil is that
the plant waxes coat the soil particles making it so
tough to get wet and hold moisture again. another
good reason to have worms as the passing of dirt
through the gut of a worm will grind all those
pieces together making it much easier to wet again.
not counting all the other benefits.


- adding compost and mixing it with the top layer of
soil. i suspect adding moist compost would be even
better.

- using more compost to cover the gardens once it is
moist again to keep the moisture there from escaping
easily.

Both of those make good sense, The latter suggestion is similar to my
'mud pie' making tactics so I know that will work.

and when it rains, run out and pull some of the mulch
back from your favorite plants or those in the most risk
as then the water can reach the soil easier. then when
it stops raining put the mulch back over. leave some
mulch in the rain, of course, to protect the soil, but
if you have a really deep layer it sure doesn't hurt to
peel some of it back until you know you are getting
plenty of rains again.


- bentonite clay (not sure why anyone would add clay
to dusty soil, but perhaps it would help make granules
or clumps)

That suggestion is interesting too but all I know about Bentonite is
that it is traditionally used to stop leaks in dams ('ponds' in USian??)
if a farm has a leaking dam, bags of bentonite are poured in to stop
the leak.

yes, we tend to call them ponds here, i think most
people think of things like Hoover Dam when they hear
the word dam being used. around here it is so flat
that ponds are not in danger of leaking, they are
just deepened spots in the property where it suits.
this whole area used to be pretty much nothing but
wooded swamps, and of course, ages ago an inland sea,
glaciers, etc.


- which i think is what gypsum would do too for that
type of soil but i've never had to deal with that myself
so i can't speak from direct experience.

how is it going? making progress?

I'd say a tentative 'yes'. I've been gradually going round and paying
close attention to spots within areas where he just applies a blanket
watering. Working as a team seems to be a bit more effective in getting
water to the really precious things but it's still just about survival
and I'm not expecting things to do any thriving - that would be a
bridge too far.

We got a bit of rain yesterday (Hallellula!) and so that will help.

oh, that's great! yes, i know how that feels when it is
so hot and dry and all you are hoping for is a decent long
spell of nice gentle rains to soak everything down. i
hope the weather continues to favor you there.


Nothing, but nothing can ever replace the effectiveness of rain.

yeah, things grow ok here with our well water, but they
do much better with rain. trace nutrients and a bit of
nitrogen come along with rains in our area.


I
suspect the only thing to do from now on is to completely cover the more
sensitive growing area (veg) with shade cloth in high summer and either
never go away for more than a few days, or just admit that it's time to
move to the burbs or bring in a bulldozer and get rid of the lot and
then lay down pebbles.

i'm not sure what you already have in place, but
things like shelter belts, and wind breaks can also
help a lot. and interplanting with deep rooted
perennials (chop some back every once in a while),
they'll help keep things cooler, protect the soil
from evaporation losses and bring up both moisture
and nutrients from further down than most garden
veggies will go.


songbird

Fran Farmer wrote:
songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:


from what you wrote in the other response you have
a lot of fine dust. that would be tough to get
wetted again.

Yep, dust is it. And anything vegetative mixed into the soil or on top
of the soil is like it's been discovered in an ancient tomb so it's dry
to the point of total desiccation.

yeah, i just used a bucket and a half of very
similar material in the worm bins (dust from off
the garlic that has been sitting out without any
water since last summer). i wasn't going to mix
it or wet it down, but i did layer it with other
materials and will let the worms work at it. i
figure it contains enough variety for them that
they'll gradually get through it and mix it up
for me. what i did do was make sure to soak down
the surrounding layers well enough that eventually
that moisture will get in there. one way or
another...


i'd still make sure there was mulch on top and then
make sure to spray that mulch (not putting water through
it) so that it can slowly drip down on the soil below.
from your description you say the water goes right
through the mulch and runs off the soil. to me that
says you are using too much water and pouring it
through the mulch. instead, use a fine mist to keep
wetting the mulch. spray it several times a day.

Tried both of those in the past with the exception of the 'several times
a day' - it's morning and/or evening only in our summer conditions and
even then unless it's overcast and there is no wind, microsprays are a
very 'iffy' use of water - almost always a waste of time and for some
reason mulch just adds to the problem when it's already dry under the
mulch. I don't really understand why the mulch doesn't help but it
doesn't until the soil is moist and then it can do it's traditional soil
protecting job.

no, i don't mean microspray, i just mean a finer mist than
what some watering cans or sprayers put out. enough to make
sure all of the mulch is wetted down instead of just bits of
it.


We seem to be getting there slowly but progress is not fast. Mud pies
making still seem to be the most effective method with the most
threatened smaller plants but I am worried about some of the trees.

i hope they'll come through ok and keep the wishes
for more rain going too.


songbird

In article ,
Fran Farmer wrote:

On 16/01/2014 9:07 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Brooklyn1 wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

I've been away for more than a month, and although Himself did a lot
of watering, there are some places where the soil has dried out to
such an extent that it's now baked and water repellant and all
attempts at normal watering (ie hoses and sprinklers) are proving
fruitless.

How have others coped with this other than puddling and making mud
pies? This does seem to work, but I'm sure there will be some reason
why I shouldn't do this even though it can't be because of soil
structure since where there is none to begin with once it's as dry
as a chip. I also do not like using soil wetting agents since I've
never been able to find out what it does to earth worms and I know
they will return eventually, once it rains or the winter comes and
the weather cools.

I see I'm late to the party, and probably don't know what's going on,
but that has never stopped me before.

Numero-uno: Sounds like you need more organic material in your soil.

Numero-two-o: Anionic Surfactants are negatively charged, and enhance
foaming and other spreading properties. For example, shampoo for hair
contains sodium or ammonium laureth sulfate, which is the preferred
anionic surfactant for hair. Using an anionic surfactant in the
greenhouse can cause problems with sprayers that have an agitator, or
any system where the foam could disrupt water flow or pump suction.
http://www.caes.uga.edu/publications/pubDetail.cfm?pk_id=7678#SoWhyNot
&
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555348/

Numero-three-o: boil kitchen fat, and wood ash together, and then spread
on garden.


Numero-four-o: Siesta time.


Not enough details (climate, area size, growing?) but it's really a
no-brainer... the best way to improve adobe-like soil is to till in
organic matter and rich topsoil... invest in a Mantis tiller, a
truckload of good topsoil, many bags of peat moss,

Peat moss! Far too expensive. Why use an expensive limited resource
like peat that must be transported long distances (Fran is Southern
highlands NSW and the nearest peat bogs are in Tasmania)

:-)) I wish I WAS in the Southern Highlands of NSW.

That is where I was when my garden dried out despite Himself's good
efforts.

We live even further south than the Highlands. We live in the
Tablelands and I am pea green with envy at the growing conditions in the
Southern Highlands. They have basalt soil and regular rainfall and, to
put the icing on the cake, nighttime mists in summer. Not only do they
have moist growing conditions in great soil but it's also cool enough to
sleep at night. Lucky sods, but then they do pay for it given the price
of all the real estate round there.


when some other
local source of organic material will do as well and be much cheaper.
Peat moss is not available cheaply around the world, stop being so
parochical.


and begin a
composting program... over watering hard soil will just make a mess
and when it dries it'll make your soil even harder. There's no magic
bullet... you need to WORK at it... standing there with a garden hose
only demonstrates gross laziness.

Why is it that even when seeming to be helpful you must put your strange
insulting slant on everything. You know nothing about people but offer
them gratuitious insult anyway.

I've read and responded to posts from Sheldon in various newsgroups for
about 15 years - maybe more. In one of the previous newsgroups we both
used to post to (misc.rural), I wrote quite often about our farm and our
animals and other aspects of my life. Sheldon obviously doesn't
remember that.

In contrast, I have paid some attention and still possess some retentive
memory so I know that Sheldon cooks for himself (but nothing that I
would consider to be challenging or out of the ordinary), lives on a
nice, neatly kept piece of land, that he lives fairly quietly on his
land, that he regularly attends to maintenance tasks and seems to enjoy
doing so, that he is not lazy, that he is interested in birds and
wildlife, takes nice pics quite often and posts them for others to see
also quite often, that he likes to own and use PTO driven devices to
help keep his land neat and that we've never thought we would ever need
even though we live in a place that is officially recognised by the Tax
Office as a being a real, money earning 'farm'.

I also know from having read him for so long that he regularly makes
gratuitously offensive sexual references that most men I know would also
find offensive. He's a curmudgeon. He seems to go out of his way to
try to be insulting and frequently insists that others need to do things
his way and that others need to possess all the tools and boy's toys he
feels the need to own.

He's never been the least bit subtle in his insults and so, in my
opinion, is not very effective because of his transparency.

If Fran is anything like the farming
women I know round here she has been working from daylight til dark
these last 50 years and is only now slowing down as her body just can't
do it any more.

:-)) Well in many ways (chooks, food growing/preserving, garden,
cooking, cattle work, fencing, shelter belt planting) I am like many
farm wives. But I also went out to full time work and earned very good
money for many years. We both did, which of course is why we can still
manage to live on cattle producing land in retirement.
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg