My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

The area has a gentle slope (about 4" in elevation) and is covered in
grass and weedy bits. I have a hole in th center which I have seen
chipmunks dart into but I don't think it is their home. There is a
large hydrangea (5' round) at one end, open grass at the other. The
north and south edges are defined by the patio and a rock retaining
wall down to the gravel and grass of the next level down.

I'm contemplating what I would need to do to prep the grassy area into
a garden.
How far should I stay away from the Hydrangea? I don't want to dig and
damage its root.
I would probably want to turn up the top 6" or more and add
fertilizer, peat, perlite, humus, manure. Also bring it more level so
I don't get runoff and puddles.
Do I need to strip/throw away the sod, or can I turn it under and
maybe black plastic it to kill the grass?
I seem to recall reading about a treatment of heavy newspaper for a
few months.
Should I do it now before winter?

I'm not concerned with it looking like a mix of grass and vegetables,
although weeding would be the big issue. I'm trying to judge how much
work vs. what I would grow there. I can probably grow 2' tall plants
without shading the containers at the edge of the patio. I can always
move those around. I'm tempted to try a square of corn.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

I'm tempted to try a square of corn.


Tomatoes, beans, squash & cucumbers would be a better choice. You really need
more space for corn. You would get 10 to 15 ears at most, and at 20 cent an
ear at the grocery, that doesn't may CENTS!! I'd eliminate the chipmunks in
that area one way or the other. One way is rat poison down that hole deep
enough that cats and dogs don't get to it.

Good luck on the garden

Tom J

The newspaper trick works really well on weeds but I'm concerned about those
pesky 2' deep roots that some grasses put out. If you decide to use
newspaper it needs to be 10-15 pages thick and covered with something (
mulch, humus, rocks) to keep the newspapers in place and damp. A couple of
months should do it. You will have to dig over the plot anyway to add your
"fixings", so you'll find those roots that didn't die off.
As to the Hydrangea, suggest you carefully dig towards it. When you notice
the rootlets of the plant in the soil, you've dug close enough. Hand pull
any grass or weeds near the plant.
Planting corn won't get you much in the way of produce. The plants take a
lot of room to produce a small amount of ears ( 2-4 per plant). Suggest what
was once called "intensive gardening". Plant a root veggie next to a leaf
veggie and alternate the rows ( eg; radishes then lettuce, then carrots,
then chard, beets then cukes, etc) It uses less space to grow the veggies.
The veggies can be changed the next year to keep down pests and disease If
you can access the plot from both sides, you won't need a walkway between
rows, so that again saves valuable planting space.
--
Jayel
"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

The area has a gentle slope (about 4" in elevation) and is covered in
grass and weedy bits. I have a hole in th center which I have seen
chipmunks dart into but I don't think it is their home. There is a
large hydrangea (5' round) at one end, open grass at the other. The
north and south edges are defined by the patio and a rock retaining
wall down to the gravel and grass of the next level down.

I'm contemplating what I would need to do to prep the grassy area into
a garden.
How far should I stay away from the Hydrangea? I don't want to dig and
damage its root.
I would probably want to turn up the top 6" or more and add
fertilizer, peat, perlite, humus, manure. Also bring it more level so
I don't get runoff and puddles.
Do I need to strip/throw away the sod, or can I turn it under and
maybe black plastic it to kill the grass?
I seem to recall reading about a treatment of heavy newspaper for a
few months.
Should I do it now before winter?

I'm not concerned with it looking like a mix of grass and vegetables,
although weeding would be the big issue. I'm trying to judge how much
work vs. what I would grow there. I can probably grow 2' tall plants
without shading the containers at the edge of the patio. I can always
move those around. I'm tempted to try a square of corn.


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:48:10 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

Pictures, Digital, of the new spot. We want to see Before and After.

There have been many posts here on the process of digging up/removing
grass for either garden or new lawn prep. You might want to search
Google groups.

A 4" slope (in the 5' or 12' direction?) doesn't sound like much, but
might be a problem with newly dug dirt and amendments. Maybe a border
of large stones or bricks could be employed. A nearby yard has been
growing veg on a rather steep slope with stone terraces for years.
I'll stop by and take a closer look to see if the stones are just set
in the ground or cemented in some way.

I agree with other posters that a small corn plot is a waste of space.
Not only is the yield small, but the yield bugs or birds don't get to
is even smaller. And corn is *tall*. Didn't you try growing some
already? (Of course, tomatoes are tall, too -- just not *that* tall.)

Weeding will, indeed, be an issue. Without constant attention and/or
thorough mulching, weeds will steal water and nutrients from your
plants. And they can't just be killed once. Eternal vigilance is the
price of tomatoes!

Given your green thumb, I expect you'll be running your own fresh veg
stand by next July. :-)

Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:48:10 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

Pictures, Digital, of the new spot. We want to see Before and After.
Of course!
http://members.aol.com/digitalvinyl66/PatioGarden.jpg
The area trailing off the right side of the photo is what i'm looking
at. The grass closer to the camera needs to be kept clear for the
drying rack and because there is a tree off to the right that shadows
it considerably in spring and fall.

There have been many posts here on the process of digging up/removing
grass for either garden or new lawn prep. You might want to search
Google groups.
I've been going back through old posts on agent and reading up.

A 4" slope (in the 5' or 12' direction?) doesn't sound like much, but
In the 12' direction. There is a slope down the 5' to the retaining
wall. I hadn't thought to measure how steep that is. I had problems
with the bed I cultivated this year because the left side sloped just
an inch or two lower. I saw runoff down to the left and more than half
of the seeds to the left never came up. They either drowned or washed
away.
might be a problem with newly dug dirt and amendments. Maybe a border
of large stones or bricks could be employed. A nearby yard has been
growing veg on a rather steep slope with stone terraces for years.
I'll stop by and take a closer look to see if the stones are just set
in the ground or cemented in some way.
Hadn't really thought of using stone brick. My mind was more on
leveling it out when I rework it...although I may have oversimplified
that in my mind.

I agree with other posters that a small corn plot is a waste of space.
Not only is the yield small, but the yield bugs or birds don't get to
is even smaller. And corn is *tall*. Didn't you try growing some
already? (Of course, tomatoes are tall, too -- just not *that* tall.)
Yes I did and I got half a cob with about 60 kernels from 6 plants. I
messed up the fertilzer and the tassels came out a month before the
silks ever formed. Though I have to say that my corn variety was 6'
where my tomatoes grew to 5 1/2'. And the tomatoes formed a wall of
green that I could NOT see through. I would still like to grow corn
successfully -- even if just once.

Weeding will, indeed, be an issue. Without constant attention and/or
thorough mulching, weeds will steal water and nutrients from your
plants. And they can't just be killed once. Eternal vigilance is the
price of tomatoes!
I did pretty good on that front this year. I spent 20-40 minutes each
morning in the garden early on. Once the garden filled in it keep the
weeds out naturally. However, I was self-employed/unemployed so time
was not a problem. Once I go back to work that simply won't happen. I
usually rush in the morning and work long hours. Except in deep
summer, I get used to coming home in the dark.

Given your green thumb, I expect you'll be running your own fresh veg
stand by next July. :-)
I prefer to grow what I will eat and give the rest to friends, family
and neighbors. I'll be satisfied if my planning and scheduling is
better next time around. Also I'd like to succesfully germinate a few
no shows from this year.
DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

"Tom J" wrote:


"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
.. .
My landlords have offered for me to use a 5x12 square of lawn at th
eedge of my patio for next year's gardening. This year was a definite
success.

I'm tempted to try a square of corn.


Tomatoes, beans, squash & cucumbers would be a better choice.
Beans are definitely in for next year. Cucumbers is on my list of
possibilities for next year. However the only way I will do it is if
I'm committed to pickling them since cucumbers repeat on me, but I
*LOVE* pickles and relish. Squash (like eggplant & zucchini) is
something I eat more when someone else makes it. Unless I really force
myself to make and eat it a lot, I will be giving most of it away.

Watermelon and canteloupe are two things I'm interested in trying next
year. Also I'd like to start two grape vines. I haven't settled on
where to locate them yet or whether to make them permanent or try
large containers.

You really need
more space for corn. You would get 10 to 15 ears at most, and at 20 cent an
ear at the grocery, that doesn't may CENTS!! I'd eliminate the chipmunks in
that area one way or the other.
We believe they have a burrow in the rock wall near the front of the
driveway. I think the one I saw duck in this hole was frightened by
me. The hole has been there for years and I wouldn't be surprised it
if it was manmade.

Despite the chipmunks, a black cat, six squirrels living in front of
the house and small birds everyone I suffered no "wildlife" damage.
I'm going to plant a few bulbs this fall--so that may change.

Good luck on the garden

Tom J


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...

Despite the chipmunks, a black cat, six squirrels living in front of
the house and small birds everyone I suffered no "wildlife" damage.
I'm going to plant a few bulbs this fall--so that may change.

Six Squirrels?? Next year there will be more and they know the day corn is
ready to be shucked, so another reason not to try corn!! BTW, a couple of
watermelon vines would cover the whole area, so that's something else better
bought at the market.

Tom J

"Tom J" wrote:


"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
.. .

Despite the chipmunks, a black cat, six squirrels living in front of
the house and small birds everyone I suffered no "wildlife" damage.
I'm going to plant a few bulbs this fall--so that may change.

Six Squirrels??
Well a family of six lives in the front tree. There are more out back
that run along the telephone lines each day across all the backyards.
Next year there will be more and they know the day corn is
ready to be shucked, so another reason not to try corn!! BTW, a couple of
watermelon vines would cover the whole area, so that's something else better
bought at the market.
I would only grow one or two, and it would be one of the smaller round
ones. I was thinking it could take over the grassy area near the rock
wall and spread lengthwise along the wall. I grew baby bear pumpkins
in a 12" wide container this year (harvested three, i killed the plant
in a baking soda accident).
Tom J


DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:28:58 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

"Tom J" wrote:

BTW, a couple of
watermelon vines would cover the whole area, so that's something else better
bought at the market.

I would only grow one or two, and it would be one of the smaller round
ones. I was thinking it could take over the grassy area near the rock
wall and spread lengthwise along the wall. I grew baby bear pumpkins
in a 12" wide container this year (harvested three, i killed the plant
in a baking soda accident).

^_^ If you're not crazy about squash, I wouldn't waste the space.
Those plants can become *very* large. Similarly, even with small
fruit, melon vines can occupy a lot of space. I do sympathize with the
desire to try many things just to see how/what they do. I liked to
grow either unusual or expensive things in my garden plot -- different
colored bell peppers, purple beans, celeriac (a complete failure),
oriental veg. I grew onions one year and those were also dismal --
they take a lot of water and attention, and onions are cheap. Better
to try shallots or garlic chives. Or leeks. For beans, be careful to
note whether they're bush or pole (climbing) types. I built a very
elaborate bean trellis, and then planted bush bean seeds. Uh oh. The
small fresh beans were lovely, nonetheless.

Frogleg wrote:

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:28:58 GMT, DigitalVinyl
wrote:

"Tom J" wrote:

BTW, a couple of
watermelon vines would cover the whole area, so that's something else better
bought at the market.

I would only grow one or two, and it would be one of the smaller round
ones. I was thinking it could take over the grassy area near the rock
wall and spread lengthwise along the wall. I grew baby bear pumpkins
in a 12" wide container this year (harvested three, i killed the plant
in a baking soda accident).

^_^ If you're not crazy about squash, I wouldn't waste the space.
Those plants can become *very* large. Similarly, even with small
fruit, melon vines can occupy a lot of space.
I would use vertical growing for them as much as possible. It just
makes more sense--although it eliminates vines re-rooting.

I do sympathize with the
desire to try many things just to see how/what they do. I liked to
grow either unusual or expensive things in my garden plot -- different
colored bell peppers, purple beans, celeriac (a complete failure),
oriental veg. I grew onions one year and those were also dismal --
they take a lot of water and attention, and onions are cheap. Better
to try shallots or garlic chives. Or leeks. For beans, be careful to
I will be doing a lot more scallions this year, but I do want to do
some onion and garlic. I'll have to keep the higher water requirement
in mind.
note whether they're bush or pole (climbing) types. I built a very
elaborate bean trellis, and then planted bush bean seeds. Uh oh. The
small fresh beans were lovely, nonetheless.

DiGiTAL ViNYL (no email)
Zone 6b/7, Westchester Co, NY, 1 mile off L.I.Sound
1st Year Gardener