I have had a love/hate relationship with the large sycamore tree in my
front yard ever since I moved here. On the one hand it was the only
shade tree on the entire front half of the property and is over 40
feet tall plus the bark is lovely in winter with the patches of white
and grey. On the other hand it has a weak-looking crotch with one
half leaning towards the house, my bedroom in particular, and part of
it breaks everytime we have a storm (which is often. Also I seem to
be allergic to the fuzzy balls, the fungus/mildew/whatever on the
leaves, or both. And the large leaves are messy and it offers no fall
color.

But after last night with thunderstorms doing a little bit more damage
to it, I finally made up my mind to get rid of it before wind splits
it at the crotch and dumps half of it on the house. In it's place
will be a pair of trees, a dawn redwood and a crabapple - probably
prarie fire. Common as hell but they do very well here and offer
attractive flowers and fruit. The redwood is about 13 feet tall and
with care should grow fast enough to keep me from missing the sycamore
too much.

I have no clue what to do with the plants that were underneath it. A
dozen or so hostas, some wintergreen, some pachysandra terminalis, a
couple of nice clumps of lenten rose, and some shade-loving violets.
I have room to move some hostas on the north side of the house where I
have a fence that is covered with vines... between the fence and some
shrubs is a corridor that is shaded most of the day and I can plant
some there, a few more under one or two trees that I planted that have
a little bit of shade (most of the trees do not having enough
branching outwards to provide shade around the base of the trees for
enough of the day) but I barely have room for them, the wintergreen
can go in any old little spot... But the pachysandra, I have no clue
where to go with it at the moment.

Can it tolerate any sun at all? I could plant it in a couple of
places where it would get sun until...oh, noon or a little after, and
then have shade the rest of the day. I am not sure that it can take
even eleven-o-clock sun here in zone 6b with our summer days which
often reach 95+.

I thought about leaving some of the more established hostas where they
are and somehow manufacturing some shade for them, maybe the patch of
spurge as well. Any ideas on doing that without making something that
is an eyesore?

I am also considering buying a 'pink cascade' weeping peach, but I
hear bad things about weeping cherries getting problems around the
graft and dying... so someone should probably talk me out of the
weeping peach.

If I can find room the nursery also has some corkscrew willows... very
lovely! I did not appreciate this tree until I saw some up close, it
would look really neat for winter.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:06:06 -0600, griffon
wrote:

I have had a love/hate relationship with the large sycamore tree in my
front yard ever since I moved here. On the one hand it was the only
shade tree on the entire front half of the property and is over 40
feet tall plus the bark is lovely in winter with the patches of white
and grey. On the other hand it has a weak-looking crotch with one
half leaning towards the house, my bedroom in particular, and part of
it breaks everytime we have a storm (which is often. Also I seem to
be allergic to the fuzzy balls, the fungus/mildew/whatever on the
leaves, or both. And the large leaves are messy and it offers no fall
color.

But after last night with thunderstorms doing a little bit more damage
to it, I finally made up my mind to get rid of it before wind splits
it at the crotch and dumps half of it on the house. In it's place
will be a pair of trees, a dawn redwood and a crabapple - probably
prarie fire. Common as hell but they do very well here and offer
attractive flowers and fruit. The redwood is about 13 feet tall and
with care should grow fast enough to keep me from missing the sycamore
too much.

I have no clue what to do with the plants that were underneath it. A
dozen or so hostas, some wintergreen, some pachysandra terminalis, a
couple of nice clumps of lenten rose, and some shade-loving violets.
I have room to move some hostas on the north side of the house where I
have a fence that is covered with vines... between the fence and some
shrubs is a corridor that is shaded most of the day and I can plant
some there, a few more under one or two trees that I planted that have
a little bit of shade (most of the trees do not having enough
branching outwards to provide shade around the base of the trees for
enough of the day) but I barely have room for them, the wintergreen
can go in any old little spot... But the pachysandra, I have no clue
where to go with it at the moment.

Can it tolerate any sun at all? I could plant it in a couple of
places where it would get sun until...oh, noon or a little after, and
then have shade the rest of the day. I am not sure that it can take
even eleven-o-clock sun here in zone 6b with our summer days which
often reach 95+.

I thought about leaving some of the more established hostas where they
are and somehow manufacturing some shade for them, maybe the patch of
spurge as well. Any ideas on doing that without making something that
is an eyesore?

I am also considering buying a 'pink cascade' weeping peach, but I
hear bad things about weeping cherries getting problems around the
graft and dying... so someone should probably talk me out of the
weeping peach.

If I can find room the nursery also has some corkscrew willows... very
lovely! I did not appreciate this tree until I saw some up close, it
would look really neat for winter.

Quite a few hostas are tougher than you think, particularly any with
white or cream in the leaves, and will tolerate quite a bit of sun
for awhile, What's on the north and east sides of the house?

The average lifespan of a peach is like 6 or 8 years. Average being
that a good many die very young from peach tree borers. The wasp
looking daytime moths lay eggs on the ground around the trees, so they
say keep all vegetation away from the base of the trees for 2 feet all
around, and put moth crystals down in the soil to keep the moths from
laying eggs close enough to the tree for the larvae to crawl that far,
they die on the trek to the tree. They often sunscald badly, so you
have to either wrap the trunk or paint it white with latex paint mixed
with water to thin it down.

I kind of think any of those grafted weeping trees are sad .. sort of
like those poor cacti that they graft the grotesque red ball on top of
... blech. Then there are the glass tetras they clumsily squirt dye
into in the tropical fish shops. Why take something that's fine in
its own right and mess it up by subjecting it to the had of some
sicko! hahaha.. can you tell how I feel about 'em? ;-)

Janice

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:06:06 -0600, griffon
wrote:

I have had a love/hate relationship with the large sycamore tree in my
front yard ever since I moved here. On the one hand it was the only
shade tree on the entire front half of the property and is over 40
feet tall plus the bark is lovely in winter with the patches of white
and grey. On the other hand it has a weak-looking crotch with one
half leaning towards the house, my bedroom in particular, and part of
it breaks everytime we have a storm (which is often. Also I seem to
be allergic to the fuzzy balls, the fungus/mildew/whatever on the
leaves, or both. And the large leaves are messy and it offers no fall
color.

But after last night with thunderstorms doing a little bit more damage
to it, I finally made up my mind to get rid of it before wind splits
it at the crotch and dumps half of it on the house. In it's place
will be a pair of trees, a dawn redwood and a crabapple - probably
prarie fire. Common as hell but they do very well here and offer
attractive flowers and fruit. The redwood is about 13 feet tall and
with care should grow fast enough to keep me from missing the sycamore
too much.

I have no clue what to do with the plants that were underneath it. A
dozen or so hostas, some wintergreen, some pachysandra terminalis, a
couple of nice clumps of lenten rose, and some shade-loving violets.
I have room to move some hostas on the north side of the house where I
have a fence that is covered with vines... between the fence and some
shrubs is a corridor that is shaded most of the day and I can plant
some there, a few more under one or two trees that I planted that have
a little bit of shade (most of the trees do not having enough
branching outwards to provide shade around the base of the trees for
enough of the day) but I barely have room for them, the wintergreen
can go in any old little spot... But the pachysandra, I have no clue
where to go with it at the moment.

Can it tolerate any sun at all? I could plant it in a couple of
places where it would get sun until...oh, noon or a little after, and
then have shade the rest of the day. I am not sure that it can take
even eleven-o-clock sun here in zone 6b with our summer days which
often reach 95+.

I thought about leaving some of the more established hostas where they
are and somehow manufacturing some shade for them, maybe the patch of
spurge as well. Any ideas on doing that without making something that
is an eyesore?

I am also considering buying a 'pink cascade' weeping peach, but I
hear bad things about weeping cherries getting problems around the
graft and dying... so someone should probably talk me out of the
weeping peach.

If I can find room the nursery also has some corkscrew willows... very
lovely! I did not appreciate this tree until I saw some up close, it
would look really neat for winter.

Quite a few hostas are tougher than you think, particularly any with
white or cream in the leaves, and will tolerate quite a bit of sun
for awhile, What's on the north and east sides of the house?

The average lifespan of a peach is like 6 or 8 years. Average being
that a good many die very young from peach tree borers. The wasp
looking daytime moths lay eggs on the ground around the trees, so they
say keep all vegetation away from the base of the trees for 2 feet all
around, and put moth crystals down in the soil to keep the moths from
laying eggs close enough to the tree for the larvae to crawl that far,
they die on the trek to the tree. They often sunscald badly, so you
have to either wrap the trunk or paint it white with latex paint mixed
with water to thin it down.

I kind of think any of those grafted weeping trees are sad .. sort of
like those poor cacti that they graft the grotesque red ball on top of
... blech. Then there are the glass tetras they clumsily squirt dye
into in the tropical fish shops. Why take something that's fine in
its own right and mess it up by subjecting it to the had of some
sicko! hahaha.. can you tell how I feel about 'em? ;-)

Janice

In article , griffon wrote:

I have no clue what to do with the plants that were underneath it.
A
dozen or so hostas, some wintergreen, some pachysandra terminalis, a
couple of nice clumps of lenten rose, and some shade-loving violets.
I have room to move some hostas on the north side of the house where I
have a fence that is covered with vines... between the fence and some
shrubs is a corridor that is shaded most of the day and I can plant
some there, a few more under one or two trees that I planted that have
a little bit of shade (most of the trees do not having enough
branching outwards to provide shade around the base of the trees for
enough of the day) but I barely have room for them, the wintergreen
can go in any old little spot... But the pachysandra, I have no clue
where to go with it at the moment.

Can it tolerate any sun at all? I could plant it in a couple of
places where it would get sun until...oh, noon or a little after, and
then have shade the rest of the day. I am not sure that it can take
even eleven-o-clock sun here in zone 6b with our summer days which
often reach 95+.

I thought about leaving some of the more established hostas where they
are and somehow manufacturing some shade for them, maybe the patch of
spurge as well. Any ideas on doing that without making something that
is an eyesore?

I am also considering buying a 'pink cascade' weeping peach, but I
hear bad things about weeping cherries getting problems around the
graft and dying... so someone should probably talk me out of the
weeping peach.

If I can find room the nursery also has some corkscrew willows... very
lovely! I did not appreciate this tree until I saw some up close, it
would look really neat for winter.

Many shade plants will do fine with considerable morning sun, sometimes
even do better than with deeper shade, though pachysandra probably is not
one that will do well in more than dappled sunlight. If there's afternoon
sun that's the side to work on most in trying to get shade back to the
shade-garden. Two or three large flowering shrubs might do the trick,
though you'd have to invest in something mature to give immediate shade.Or
buy one largish but slow-growing tree. I planted a nice paperbark maple
probably only about fifteen feet tall a few years ago -- big enough to
have real substance but not so big as to be too heavy to plant or too
expensive to move -- & immediately after I planted a shade-garden under it
of jack in the pulpits, trilliums, corrydalises & dicentrums, hepaticas,
ferns, mouseplants, & so on. A lot of shade plants die back in winter
anyhow so won't mind that more sun reaches the ground then, & other things
like hepaticas WANT the sun in winter but not the rest of the year, so one
medium-sized deciduous tree can often be all you need for sufficient shade
most of the year.

I like the corkscrew willow, & it's a fast grower, turns a lovely yellow
in autumn, & the winter limbs are indeed qutie stunning. For over a shade
garden though I would personally prefer beeches or maples, though it's
mostly a matter of taste. Just look at the biggest trees you can afford so
that there's shade immediately, & assess how they leave room for an
undergrowth garden now & in the future. You can't underlimb trees when
they're still quite small because that will keep them from bulking up at
the bottom of the trunks properly & more apt to blow down when they are
mature, so you'll want something that naturally has a bit of empty trunk
below so you can work with plants underneath the branches. The weeping
peach (presuming it even survives) might drag the ground & not really
provide for an understory of shade plants that you can see. Supposedly
rose-family trees like cherries & peaches can sometimes suppress the
growth of delicate shade plants, though I have shade gardens under cherry
trees that have never seemed to suffer in the slightest so I wouldn't
worry about that TOO much. I'd go for a more upright tree instead of a
weeper if you want the ground beneath it to be viewable & accessible. A
white's weeping birch or a weeping cherry or a weeping willow, they all
hide the ground, but the upright corkscrew willow or an upright cherry or
maple just automatically leave space for shade-plants to be seen. Weeping
beaches are sometimes the exception, many of those are not so much weepers
as twisty weirders.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

griffon said:

If I can find room the nursery also has some corkscrew willows... very
lovely! I did not appreciate this tree until I saw some up close, it
would look really neat for winter.

They can be very cute, but -- when they put on some size -- they are
susceptible to damage in storms. I used to live across the street from a
biggish corkscrew willow and regularly had to pick up debris from it.
(And it *really* got hammered after a major ice storm, to the point where
it became a really ugly tree.)

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Sorry to hear about your sycamore. I've always liked them. The architect who
built my parents' dream house in the 50s built part of the house AROUND a
splendid sycamore--I mean, he altered the house's footprint. Not too
surprising, as his own house had a natural stream (dry 6 months of the year)
flowing through the living room and another sycamore growing through the roof.
The house is now on the National Register of Historic Places, so if you get to
the Santa Monica Moutains, go up Mandeville Canyon and ask about the Alan Siple
house. It's beautiful.
zemedelec

I decided against the peach. $70 + short lifespan + a lot of
potential problems told me to forget it. I bought a corkscrew willow,
I will put that in the back yard somewhere. And a 'little gem'
southern magnolia. I really should not go to the nursery when I
actually have some money to spend. =)

(paghat) wrote:

Many shade plants will do fine with considerable morning sun, sometimes
even do better than with deeper shade, though pachysandra probably is not
one that will do well in more than dappled sunlight. If there's afternoon
sun that's the side to work on most in trying to get shade back to the
shade-garden. Two or three large flowering shrubs might do the trick,
though you'd have to invest in something mature to give immediate shade.Or
buy one largish but slow-growing tree. I planted a nice paperbark maple
probably only about fifteen feet tall a few years ago -- big enough to
have real substance but not so big as to be too heavy to plant or too
expensive to move -- & immediately after I planted a shade-garden under it
of jack in the pulpits, trilliums, corrydalises & dicentrums, hepaticas,
ferns, mouseplants, & so on. A lot of shade plants die back in winter
anyhow so won't mind that more sun reaches the ground then, & other things
like hepaticas WANT the sun in winter but not the rest of the year, so one
medium-sized deciduous tree can often be all you need for sufficient shade
most of the year.

I think the Dawn redwood might be big enough to offer some shade,
especially mid-day and early afternoon shade, but I would have to do
some additional plantings for late afternoon and evening shade. I
guess a couple of willows or buddleias would work for that purpose if
they looked alright in those spots. The same is true for most of the
trees I have planted. They just are not broad enough or near enough
to the ground to offer any shade during that hot early evening sun.
Temporary shrub plantings are really all that I can think of for
offering additional shade, and then they would need to be moved or
removed when the trees grew enough.

I like the corkscrew willow, & it's a fast grower, turns a lovely yellow
in autumn, & the winter limbs are indeed qutie stunning. For over a shade
garden though I would personally prefer beeches or maples, though it's
mostly a matter of taste.

Oh, the willow is going somewhere in the back acre of the yard by
itself, where it has lots of room to be pretty. As for beeches, you
never see _any_ of them for sale here. I actually once saw a 'Black
Swan' when out of town and almost bought it, but I did not. I called
the nursery the next day and it was gone. Seeing your page about one
just makes me hate it more that I did not buy it. I see them online
and they are like one foot tall and $50.00 or something. Which is
much more unreasonable than say, $350.00 for a tree that is a few feet
tall. At least you can see it.

Do you have any complaints at all about your 'Black Swan'?

That and an 'Autumn Moon' japanese maple are on my list of trees that
I will go out of town to find if possible, although none of my
contacts online have ever seen one at nurseries in the general area.
I am considereing ordering several little japanese maple cultivars so
I can get some more exotic ones at like 1 foot tall, and make a
mini-garden with them and various flowers and such. Let them grow
slowly into something more substantial. I think it could actually look
really neat if I do it right.

In article , griffon wrote:

Oh, the willow is going somewhere in the back acre of the yard by
itself, where it has lots of room to be pretty.

It'll need a good deal of water to thrive.

As for beeches, you
never see _any_ of them for sale here. I actually once saw a 'Black
Swan' when out of town and almost bought it, but I did not. I called
the nursery the next day and it was gone. Seeing your page about one
just makes me hate it more that I did not buy it. I see them online
and they are like one foot tall and $50.00 or something. Which is
much more unreasonable than say, $350.00 for a tree that is a few feet
tall. At least you can see it.

Do you have any complaints at all about your 'Black Swan'?

It has gotten quite big around the base, now reaches to the tip-top of our
two-story house, has something praiseworthy about it in every season. It's
just always been one of the very best things I ever installed, &
completely trouble-free.

If nurseries in your area don't offer beech cultivars as standard plants
you might want to ask around about why. Possibly there's some reason they
don't do as well in your area. Or maybe it's only that the best growers
developing them for sale are outside the affordable-shipping range, but
otherwise your zone & conditions would be fine.

That and an 'Autumn Moon' japanese maple are on my list of trees that
I will go out of town to find if possible, although none of my
contacts online have ever seen one at nurseries in the general area.
I am considereing ordering several little japanese maple cultivars so
I can get some more exotic ones at like 1 foot tall, and make a
mini-garden with them and various flowers and such. Let them grow
slowly into something more substantial. I think it could actually look
really neat if I do it right.

I got a five-foot-tall Oshio Beni four years ago, it's now ten feet &
Granny Artemis trained it as it grew so it has good form & is now a
perfectly shaped tree even at its present size. If not trained, the fast
growing types of saplings will get to looking like fat maple-leafed bushes
instead of like trees. One problem with the young Japanese maples is they
start out being semi-shade plants & can be delicate or not live up to
their color potential if out in a lot of sun; they become more
sun-tolerant as adults but even then some of them would wish for some
bigger trees nearby to shade at least part of each day, growing them in
groups sometimes permits them to shade each other a tiny bit, but they
won't like to be dug up & moved so if they're going to be close together
while little they should be in containers until big enough to plant in
permanent spots.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article , griffon wrote:

Oh, the willow is going somewhere in the back acre of the yard by
itself, where it has lots of room to be pretty.

It'll need a good deal of water to thrive.

As for beeches, you
never see _any_ of them for sale here. I actually once saw a 'Black
Swan' when out of town and almost bought it, but I did not. I called
the nursery the next day and it was gone. Seeing your page about one
just makes me hate it more that I did not buy it. I see them online
and they are like one foot tall and $50.00 or something. Which is
much more unreasonable than say, $350.00 for a tree that is a few feet
tall. At least you can see it.

Do you have any complaints at all about your 'Black Swan'?

It has gotten quite big around the base, now reaches to the tip-top of our
two-story house, has something praiseworthy about it in every season. It's
just always been one of the very best things I ever installed, &
completely trouble-free.

If nurseries in your area don't offer beech cultivars as standard plants
you might want to ask around about why. Possibly there's some reason they
don't do as well in your area. Or maybe it's only that the best growers
developing them for sale are outside the affordable-shipping range, but
otherwise your zone & conditions would be fine.

That and an 'Autumn Moon' japanese maple are on my list of trees that
I will go out of town to find if possible, although none of my
contacts online have ever seen one at nurseries in the general area.
I am considereing ordering several little japanese maple cultivars so
I can get some more exotic ones at like 1 foot tall, and make a
mini-garden with them and various flowers and such. Let them grow
slowly into something more substantial. I think it could actually look
really neat if I do it right.

I got a five-foot-tall Oshio Beni four years ago, it's now ten feet &
Granny Artemis trained it as it grew so it has good form & is now a
perfectly shaped tree even at its present size. If not trained, the fast
growing types of saplings will get to looking like fat maple-leafed bushes
instead of like trees. One problem with the young Japanese maples is they
start out being semi-shade plants & can be delicate or not live up to
their color potential if out in a lot of sun; they become more
sun-tolerant as adults but even then some of them would wish for some
bigger trees nearby to shade at least part of each day, growing them in
groups sometimes permits them to shade each other a tiny bit, but they
won't like to be dug up & moved so if they're going to be close together
while little they should be in containers until big enough to plant in
permanent spots.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/