Anyone have information as to whether coco hulls are safe to use as
mulch around pets. Web search articles indicate that the theobromine in
chocolate is a cardiac stimulant and, with exercise, can cause a dog's
heart to beat rapidly or irregularly and may cause the dog to die. But
I didn't find anything about theobromine concentration coco hulls.

Olin

The general concensus with respect to cocoa bean hull mulch and dogs is
'better safe than sorry'. The hulls are very fragrant and theoretically
*could* atrract some ingestion by a curious pooch. It would be fatal.

Dave

"omi" wrote in message
...
Anyone have information as to whether coco hulls are safe to use as
mulch around pets. Web search articles indicate that the theobromine in
chocolate is a cardiac stimulant and, with exercise, can cause a dog's
heart to beat rapidly or irregularly and may cause the dog to die. But
I didn't find anything about theobromine concentration coco hulls.

Olin

my mother loves to use it. we have 6 dogs who have never shown any interest in
eating it. actually... I dont care of the stuff the smell can be cloying it gets
fungusy really fast it is expensive it gets blown away by the wind.
Ingrid

"omi" wrote:

Anyone have information as to whether coco hulls are safe to use as
mulch around pets. Web search articles indicate that the theobromine in
chocolate is a cardiac stimulant and, with exercise, can cause a dog's
heart to beat rapidly or irregularly and may cause the dog to die. But
I didn't find anything about theobromine concentration coco hulls.

Olin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Cocoa Bean Fertilizer Warning

Friday, March 14, 2003

Organic mulch fertilizer may pose hazard to dogs

Contacts: Deborah Sindell
(212)-876-7700 ext. 4658

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


(URBANA, IL) March 13, 2003 -- As spring approaches, people will start to
tend their lawns and gardens. Many will consider using cocoa bean mulch as a
fertilizer. Made from spent cocoa beans used in chocolate production, cocoa
bean mulch is organic, deters slugs and snails, and gives a garden an
appealing chocolate smell. However, it also attracts dogs, who can easily be
poisoned by eating the mulch.

Cocoa beans contain the stimulants caffeine and theobromine. Dogs are highly
sensitive to these chemicals, called methylxanthines. In dogs, low doses of
methylxanthine can cause mild gastrointestinal upset (vomiting, diarrhea,
and/or abdominal pain); higher doses can cause rapid heart rate, muscle
tremors, seizures, and death.

Eaten by a 50-pound dog, about 2 ounces of cocoa bean mulch may cause
gastrointestinal upset; about 4.5 ounces, increased heart rate; about 5.3
ounces, seizures; and over 9 ounces, death. (In contrast, a 50-pound dog can
eat up to about 7.5 ounces of milk chocolate without gastrointestinal upset
and up to about a pound of milk chocolate without increased heart rate.)

If you suspect that your dog has eaten cocoa bean mulch, immediately contact
your veterinarian or the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center
(1-888-426-4435). Treatment will depend on how much cocoa bean mulch your
dog has eaten, when the mulch was eaten, and whether your dog is sick.
Recommended care may include placing your dog under veterinary observation,
inducing vomiting, and/or controlling a rapid heart beat or seizures."

"clc" wrote in message
...
"ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Cocoa Bean Fertilizer
Warning

...
Thks for the Info. I found the news release at ASPCA's site at

http://www.aspca.org/site/News2?page...ticle&id=12729

Olin
======================
"ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Cocoa Bean Fertilizer Warning

Friday, March 14, 2003

Organic mulch fertilizer may pose hazard to dogs

Contacts: Deborah Sindell
(212)-876-7700 ext. 4658

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


(URBANA, IL) March 13, 2003 -- As spring approaches, people will start
to
tend their lawns and gardens. Many will consider using cocoa bean
mulch as a
fertilizer. Made from spent cocoa beans used in chocolate production,
cocoa
bean mulch is organic, deters slugs and snails, and gives a garden an
appealing chocolate smell. However, it also attracts dogs, who can
easily be
poisoned by eating the mulch.

Cocoa beans contain the stimulants caffeine and theobromine. Dogs are
highly
sensitive to these chemicals, called methylxanthines. In dogs, low
doses of
methylxanthine can cause mild gastrointestinal upset (vomiting,
diarrhea,
and/or abdominal pain); higher doses can cause rapid heart rate,
muscle
tremors, seizures, and death.

Eaten by a 50-pound dog, about 2 ounces of cocoa bean mulch may cause
gastrointestinal upset; about 4.5 ounces, increased heart rate; about
5.3
ounces, seizures; and over 9 ounces, death. (In contrast, a 50-pound
dog can
eat up to about 7.5 ounces of milk chocolate without gastrointestinal
upset
and up to about a pound of milk chocolate without increased heart
rate.)

If you suspect that your dog has eaten cocoa bean mulch, immediately
contact
your veterinarian or the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center
(1-888-426-4435). Treatment will depend on how much cocoa bean mulch
your
dog has eaten, when the mulch was eaten, and whether your dog is sick.
Recommended care may include placing your dog under veterinary
observation,
inducing vomiting, and/or controlling a rapid heart beat or seizures."

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
we have one of the worst chocoholic dogs on earth... he LOVES chocolate to the point
of ripping apart my husbands briefcase to get to it. but he has never shown the
slightest inclination to eat cocoa bean mulch. There may be a few strange dogs out
there, and puppies are notorious for putting everything in their mouth.

but dont not use it because some dog MAY munch it. dont use it cause it really isnt
that great. Ingrid


"ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Cocoa Bean Fertilizer Warning
(URBANA, IL) March 13, 2003 -- As spring approaches, people will start to
tend their lawns and gardens. Many will consider using cocoa bean mulch as a
fertilizer. Made from spent cocoa beans used in chocolate production, cocoa
bean mulch is organic, deters slugs and snails, and gives a garden an
appealing chocolate smell. However, it also attracts dogs, who can easily be
poisoned by eating the mulch.

Cocoa beans contain the stimulants caffeine and theobromine. Dogs are highly
sensitive to these chemicals, called methylxanthines. In dogs, low doses of
methylxanthine can cause mild gastrointestinal upset (vomiting, diarrhea,
and/or abdominal pain); higher doses can cause rapid heart rate, muscle
tremors, seizures, and death.

Eaten by a 50-pound dog, about 2 ounces of cocoa bean mulch may cause
gastrointestinal upset; about 4.5 ounces, increased heart rate; about 5.3
ounces, seizures; and over 9 ounces, death. (In contrast, a 50-pound dog can
eat up to about 7.5 ounces of milk chocolate without gastrointestinal upset
and up to about a pound of milk chocolate without increased heart rate.)

If you suspect that your dog has eaten cocoa bean mulch, immediately contact
your veterinarian or the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center
(1-888-426-4435). Treatment will depend on how much cocoa bean mulch your
dog has eaten, when the mulch was eaten, and whether your dog is sick.
Recommended care may include placing your dog under veterinary observation,
inducing vomiting, and/or controlling a rapid heart beat or seizures."





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

rather like the ninnies who get upset over yew berries...

Dave

wrote in message
...
these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding
grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are
poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
we have one of the worst chocoholic dogs on earth... he LOVES chocolate to
the point
of ripping apart my husbands briefcase to get to it. but he has never
shown the
slightest inclination to eat cocoa bean mulch. There may be a few strange
dogs out
there, and puppies are notorious for putting everything in their mouth.

but dont not use it because some dog MAY munch it. dont use it cause it
really isnt
that great. Ingrid


"ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Cocoa Bean Fertilizer Warning
(URBANA, IL) March 13, 2003 -- As spring approaches, people will start to
tend their lawns and gardens. Many will consider using cocoa bean mulch
as a
fertilizer. Made from spent cocoa beans used in chocolate production,
cocoa
bean mulch is organic, deters slugs and snails, and gives a garden an
appealing chocolate smell. However, it also attracts dogs, who can easily
be
poisoned by eating the mulch.

Cocoa beans contain the stimulants caffeine and theobromine. Dogs are
highly
sensitive to these chemicals, called methylxanthines. In dogs, low doses
of
methylxanthine can cause mild gastrointestinal upset (vomiting, diarrhea,
and/or abdominal pain); higher doses can cause rapid heart rate, muscle
tremors, seizures, and death.

Eaten by a 50-pound dog, about 2 ounces of cocoa bean mulch may cause
gastrointestinal upset; about 4.5 ounces, increased heart rate; about 5.3
ounces, seizures; and over 9 ounces, death. (In contrast, a 50-pound dog
can
eat up to about 7.5 ounces of milk chocolate without gastrointestinal
upset
and up to about a pound of milk chocolate without increased heart rate.)

If you suspect that your dog has eaten cocoa bean mulch, immediately
contact
your veterinarian or the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center
(1-888-426-4435). Treatment will depend on how much cocoa bean mulch your
dog has eaten, when the mulch was eaten, and whether your dog is sick.
Recommended care may include placing your dog under veterinary
observation,
inducing vomiting, and/or controlling a rapid heart beat or seizures."





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article , wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding
grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are
poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
we have one of the worst chocoholic dogs on earth... he LOVES chocolate
to the point
of ripping apart my husbands briefcase to get to it. but he has never
shown the
slightest inclination to eat cocoa bean mulch. There may be a few
strange dogs out
there, and puppies are notorious for putting everything in their mouth.

but dont not use it because some dog MAY munch it. dont use it cause it
really isnt
that great. Ingrid


Hello Ingrid:
Grapes you're not supposed to give to INFANTS because they can lodge in
infants' throats. If some idiot said that meant they were toxic to dogs, I
sure never heard that one, you must know some particularly stupid people.
But as for chocolate, hooboy, could you never be more wrong! I guarantee
if you whip up a nice watering bowl with a little pure bakers' cooking
chocolate dissolved in it, or give the dogs a couple pieces each of fresh
fudge made from pure bakers chocolate, you'll see them go into cardiac
arrest, incur an extravagant vet bill, & probably loose the animals
because there is no cure for theobromine poisoning & all a vet can do is
try to keep them hydrated through the worst of it & keep fingers crossed.
It's not a 'maybe could happen' sort of thing, no more than if you fed
them strychnnine.

Processed chocolate has very little real chocolate in it, therefore very
little theobromine. The chances of an ignorant child or a foolish adult
killing their dog with the occasional piece of Hershey's milk chocolate is
so slight as to be unlikely, though some dogs will even on such small
doses vomit or get muscular spasms There are many cases of dogs getting
sick even off milk chocolate, but not dying, & usually it means they got
into a great deal of candy while an owner's back was turned. The
theobromine levels in milk chocolate are so low that a fatal dose would
take a four pounds of chocolate to achieve; a single candybar might or
might not cause mild side-effects. Hershey's Milk Chocolate is sugar &
milk & emulsifiers & so on, not healthy, but not much toxin either. But a
surprisingly small amount of pure Baker's chocolate would dehydrate &
kill a dog within the day. VERY toxic to dogs, but nevertheless some
people refuse to believe it because they've shared their milk chocolates
with Bowser & Rufus too often & never killed them.

As for cocoa mulch, it does have many times the theobromine as a chocolate
bar, but only a fraction of what's in bakers chocolate. Its degree of
danger is still very slight compared to pure baker's chocolate, because a
dog would have to be neurotic to eat enough mulch to get more than mildly
ill. The often repeated baseless data that 2 to 5 ounces of cocoa mulch
can kill an average sized dog is false, & was generated by PETA & widely
distributed during a political campaign against Foreman's & Home Depot.
PETA simultaneously alleged that cocoa mulch kills cats, which is
impossible. The 5 ounce measure has often been repeated since, but an
independent analysis done by University of Illinois professors Wiesbrook &
Gwaltney-Brant said it would take 12 ounces to kill a dog, & even that is
an estimate that sought to err on the side of caution.

A lethal dose of theobromine from milk chocolate would require a dog in
the 50 to 65 pound range to eat FOUR POUNDS to reach a toxic level. This
is why no child ever killed its dog sharing one little piece of chocolate,
unwise though that sharing may be. Cocoa mulch has four times the
theobromine, therefore it is easy to speculate that one pound of mulch
would be just as toxic to the dog -- if only you can convince the dog to
eat a pound of shells with so great an ease. Only a neurotic dog would get
so far, so the "fact" in this case is that a very unhappy miserable dog
with neurotic behaviors including devouring cocoa mulch just might kill
itself. But there is no question that dogs have presented to veterinarians
with cocoa mulch poisoning, though outright deaths are extremely rare.
Deaths are extremely common for dogs that got into pastries or fudge made
from pure Bakers chocolate, however.

If a large dog could manage to stomach between twelve ounces & a pound of
cocoa mulch, it probably would die. That much is true. Pile up that much
of the stuff & then try to imagine any dog finishing it off! What are the
serious odds of a dog eating three-quarters of a pound to a pound of such
lightweight stuff at a go? We're talking about a threat to dogs that are
already psychologically damaged, not to well-adjusted dogs.

"Dog chocolates" are usually slightly chocolate-flavored treats with the
theobromine removed from the chocolate before a small amount of flavoring
is added to the commercial treat, or it is actually made of chocolate-like
St John's Bread. Theobromine is not toxic to humans, is rarely if ever
toxic to cats or other mammals -- it's a peculiarity of canines to have
fatal toxic response to theobromine. Other mammals may at most experience
lower fertility rates (in males), or the theobromine may act like
benzodrine (speed), including on the human body, but it will not otherwise
effect health of mammals other than canines.

It is irresponsible to feed a dog even Hershey's milk chocolate though it
is very low in theobromine & so not apt to result in sickness. A very tiny
toy -sizeddog that snarfed down a whole milk-chocolate bar might start
vomiting, but a large dog probably wouldn't respond to the dose at all.
That's no reason to feed them poison though, & you should stop giving them
chocolates other than those manufactured for dogs with theobromine absent.
But if you think the low risk of Hersheys milk chocolate means chocolate
per se is not toxic to dogs, go ahead & make your pups a chocolate pie or
some fudge or fudge brownies, using real bakers' chocolate. ONE OUNCE of
baker's chocolate in whatever you feed them is enough to do them in, so a
couple pieces of lovely fudge could well be all it takes to before you
have the wonderful proof before your very own eyes that it causes
convulsions & death.

-pagaht the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:43:33 GMT, wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
It is my understanding that there is scientific evidence sited in the
literature that grapes can cause maybe a type of anemia (i'm not sure
of the actual condition) in dogs. It is a cumulative effect. so,
don't be so quick with your labels!

((.)) '))
((((((((
))(/)((

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:272372

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:43:33 GMT, wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding
grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are
poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.

It is my understanding that there is scientific evidence sited in the
literature that grapes can cause maybe a type of anemia (i'm not sure
of the actual condition) in dogs. It is a cumulative effect. so,
don't be so quick with your labels!

I'd never before heard that grapes might harm dogs & seriously doubted it
could be true; at first blush it seems ridiculous, & I immediately thought
it was a "transference" myth from the warnings not to give babies grapes
which can lodge in the throat.

Yet a quick googling finds a lot of fairly credible stuff about dogs
getting liver damage if they eat LOTS of grapes. Most of the web sources
are "pop" rather than scientific & could easily be dismissed as the sort
of web-spread-mythology one often sees in lieu of case studies & science,
& googling for answers to medical topics is nowhere near the same as a
Medline search or a trip to a Health Sciences Library, & googled medical
advice of any kind is rightly taken with a grain of salt. But the
assessment of the Animal Poison Control Center at least seems credible,
with enough cases of renal failure in dogs who ate a shitload of grapes in
the APCC database that it seems probably really to be toxic to dogs --
even though no toxin has as yet been identified.

Checking dates of the articles, in 2002 the APCC was still saying the
evidence was not in on the harmfulness of grapes despite that belief in
their harmfulness was already widespread. But their latest bulletin dated
2004 seems relatively certain the case studies are adequate to issue a
warning.

Surprises me, but I haven't had a dog for a long while, so not keeping
abreast of doggy things. Been visiting the pound a lot as a volunteer
dog-walker though, & would've come home with one by now if they weren't
all such large dogs. It's so sad that so many of these huge intelligent
dogs lose their homes, but only the occasional small to medium-sized dog
is instantly placeable with a new home. Sad, sad, sad-eyed dogs locked in
their cages all day, day in & day out, & by no means certain to eventually
have a good life. If the heart can stand it, everyone should volunteer a
least a day out of each month to go dog-walking, the dogs' overt
appreciation level is overwhelming.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:43:33 GMT, wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
It is my understanding that there is scientific evidence sited in the
literature that grapes can cause maybe a type of anemia (i'm not sure
of the actual condition) in dogs. It is a cumulative effect. so,
don't be so quick with your labels!

((.)) '))
((((((((
))(/)((

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:272372

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:43:33 GMT, wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding
grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are
poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.

It is my understanding that there is scientific evidence sited in the
literature that grapes can cause maybe a type of anemia (i'm not sure
of the actual condition) in dogs. It is a cumulative effect. so,
don't be so quick with your labels!

I'd never before heard that grapes might harm dogs & seriously doubted it
could be true; at first blush it seems ridiculous, & I immediately thought
it was a "transference" myth from the warnings not to give babies grapes
which can lodge in the throat.

Yet a quick googling finds a lot of fairly credible stuff about dogs
getting liver damage if they eat LOTS of grapes. Most of the web sources
are "pop" rather than scientific & could easily be dismissed as the sort
of web-spread-mythology one often sees in lieu of case studies & science,
& googling for answers to medical topics is nowhere near the same as a
Medline search or a trip to a Health Sciences Library, & googled medical
advice of any kind is rightly taken with a grain of salt. But the
assessment of the Animal Poison Control Center at least seems credible,
with enough cases of renal failure in dogs who ate a shitload of grapes in
the APCC database that it seems probably really to be toxic to dogs --
even though no toxin has as yet been identified.

Checking dates of the articles, in 2002 the APCC was still saying the
evidence was not in on the harmfulness of grapes despite that belief in
their harmfulness was already widespread. But their latest bulletin dated
2004 seems relatively certain the case studies are adequate to issue a
warning.

Surprises me, but I haven't had a dog for a long while, so not keeping
abreast of doggy things. Been visiting the pound a lot as a volunteer
dog-walker though, & would've come home with one by now if they weren't
all such large dogs. It's so sad that so many of these huge intelligent
dogs lose their homes, but only the occasional small to medium-sized dog
is instantly placeable with a new home. Sad, sad, sad-eyed dogs locked in
their cages all day, day in & day out, & by no means certain to eventually
have a good life. If the heart can stand it, everyone should volunteer a
least a day out of each month to go dog-walking, the dogs' overt
appreciation level is overwhelming.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

I looked, I could find NO scientific evidence that shows what it is in grapes that
could be toxic. What literature are you talking about? we had dogs used to graze
thu our grape arbors .... grapes on demand without harm.
now there could be an immunological problem with some dogs. and immune complexes can
damage the kidneys (glomerularnephritis). but giving dogs a couple grapes as treats
and for the vitamins is not going to harm them.

same with cocoa mulch. most dogs wont touch it. it is bitter and disgusting. of
course, I think cocoa mulch is pretty useless as mulch too. Ingrid

Judy Cosler wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:43:33 GMT, wrote:

these are the same ninnies get their shorts all twisted over feeding grapes to dogs.
Needless to say, there is absolutely no scientific evidence grapes are poisonous, all
they got are a few anecdotal incidents.
It is my understanding that there is scientific evidence sited in the
literature that grapes can cause maybe a type of anemia (i'm not sure
of the actual condition) in dogs. It is a cumulative effect. so,
don't be so quick with your labels!

((.)) '))
((((((((
))(/)((



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.