Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls. I still utilize a combination of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters. Like any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not spray when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to rec.gardens.edible, where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.

"Walter R." wrote:

Is there an effective general purpose insecticide, fungicide, miticide that
will get most of those rascals out there? It is troublesome to spray for all
those critters separately. I am pretty sure I've got them all.

Anything close?

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-

Actually, Betty, I have made enough mistakes to fill a book. I know what I
don't know, I know when I need advice, and I *do* ask questions. But, since
1970 or so, when I began gardening, all anyone needed to do was open a
newspaper 20 times a year to notice that there are serious problems with
pesticides, and that their presence on the store shelves is absolutely no
indication that they are safe. Further, to ask about "how to kill ALL bugs"
indicates a level of ignorance that's truly surprising in this day and age.

"Betty Harris" wrote in message
oups.com...
As we all know, Doug has always been a expert gardner. He has never
been a neophyte and has never made any mistakes and has never had any
questions. Anyone who cannot meet these standards is not welcome in
his world.

Betty

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled with
organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and
have
tried all the organic sprays and controls. I still utilize a combination
of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters. Like
any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard
area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not spray
when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to be
clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to rec.gardens.edible,
where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.

This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're aware
of that.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:07:29 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled with
organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and
have
tried all the organic sprays and controls. I still utilize a combination
of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters. Like
any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard
area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not spray
when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to be
clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to rec.gardens.edible,
where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.

This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

I will add another pest that cannot be controlled by organic methods
nor by unrestricted pesticides such as the Bonide Fruit Tree Spray.
That is the plum curculio which attacks not only plums, but also
apples, pears, peaches and nectarines.

Unrestricted pesticides used to contain a control for plum curculio
but that was removed from the formulae two years ago. The unlicensed
homeowner has no effective remedy for plum curculio, at least in my
state of New Hampshire.

That is one of the reasons I got an applicator's permit this year.
Imidan is an effective control for plum curculio but it is a
restricted product.

JMHO

John

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just
with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're
aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

Nonsense.

1) Use the pharmaceutical analogy. The only way to assure the safety of a
new drug is to test it on the target population, and even then, long term
effects can only be determined by waiting and seeing. Yard chemicals cannot
be tested in this way, at least not within the morals of this society. The
chemical companies themselves say that animal testing is irrelevant. Since
they cannot be tested on people, safety cannot be determined.

Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical

2) In the early 1970s, the chemical industry purchased legislation which
exempted a long list of so-called "inert ingredients" from what little
testing is done to begin with.
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn...ts&figures.htm This is a
summary for the layman, but with cites. This link will provide you with more
than enough other information to keep you busy for awhile:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ts&btnG=Search

The "inert" ingredients include quite a few things which are known, beyond
dispute, to be harmful to humans in some way. Toluene, for instance.

I'm not disputing what you say, in terms of what works on which pests, but I
do think it's irresponsible to suggest the use of ANY chemical to a person
who has not demonstrated the least bit of knowledge in terms of which bugs
he's trying to deal with. That, to me, is a prerequisite, and a crucial one.

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled
with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls.


The best method of apple maggot control is the use visual traps for the
adult flies before they lay their eggs, ADDING a natural host odor with
the trap [Rull et al, Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, January
2005 -- note the date, it is very recent research that has shown the
effectiveness of non-sparying techniques].

While it has become a cliche that no organic spray is half as effective as
highly toxic organophosphate type pesticides, it is now well established
that methods other than spraying can be completely effective. Because crop
value is higher for organic crops, there is no net gain by using potent
toxins [Reissig, Journal of Economic Entomology, Oct 2003].

Once a grower realizes spraying is not the best or primary method (organic
or otherwise) comparisons of organic vs non-organic spraying becomes moot.
But fact is, the 2001-2002 Cornell study headed by Terence Robinson of
organic apple techniques (tested in New York & Ontario) discovered control
of apple maggot with organically approved Surround was completely
effective. So the popular cliche that only harmful organophosphate
insecticides work is now conclusively known to be false.

Comparative analysis in Quebec conducted over a ten year period found that
completely unsprayed apple orchards had infestation rates ranging from 0
to 4.1% [Vincent & Mailloux, Annales de la Societe Entomolique de France,
1988; Vincent & Roy, Acta Entomologica et Phytopathologica Hungarica,
1992]. Unless losses exceed 5% it is counterproductive & unnecessary to
even consider chemical spraying. Any gains from using toxins are more than
offset by the extra costs of chemicals plus the lowered value of
non-organic crops.

If apples were not permitted to rot on the ground, the orchard would not
have any apple maggot pupae overwintering in the soil, & the only threat
of infestation is from adult flies coming from outside the orchard. Often
removal of elderly apple trees & hawthorns from surrounding properties is
the only control required. In all cases, by the time eggs are laid, the
maggots are impervious to toxins; so stopping the adult flies at the
periphery becomes the goal. Even growers who do use pesticides often use
them exclusively OFF the periphery of the orchards & NOT on the trees
themselves [Thimble & Solmae in Crop Protection, 1997] since a clean
orchard has no emerging flies inside the periphery. Others who use
insecticides do so only in the scent-baited sticky-traps again to keep
poisons off the crop.

The milestone research of the late Ron Prokopy (who died last year) with
even just unscented traps triggered a revolution in organic apple growing
that left the chemical-dependent growers in the pesticidal dust. Chemical
dependency bred chemical dependency, & here in Washington as the
chemical-dependent growers went bankrupt one after another, organic
growers flourish. The more recent (even just within the last four years)
scent-baiting of the Prokopy traps has has made trap strategies so
extremely effective that organic apple growers have either fewer or no
more losses than lazier less knowledgeable growers who spray & thus
produce a less valuable harvest. Effectiveness of Prokopy sticky traps
PLUS host scent is today the preferred method of apple maggot control,
preserving the added value of organic crops.

The big reason some orchards would still spray today is because they are
producing pig-feed apples & it is too labor intensive both to maintain
bait-scented traps & to clean up fallen apples, when in any case the crop
will remain poorly valued.

In Washington state the primary threat to fully organic apple orchards are
infestations bleeding over from trees grown in the back yards of
homeowners who do not know to control apple maggot with scented
stickytraps, & who let fallen apples remain on the ground so that the next
year's infestation developes. Sponsored programs to involve morons, I mean
backyard amateurs, in the use of scented traps, even providing the traps
for free, & educating the amateurs on the necessity of immediately
cleaning apples off the ground before the worms crawl into the ground to
pupate, is far more effective than trundling out increasing numbers of
increasingly toxic chemicals & pretending there is no way around them --
though certainly the chemical industry's propoganda encourages that
misguided belief. Only the chemical companies themselves continue
promulgate the so-called "integrated" system of traps plus toxic spraying.

-paghat the ratgirl

I still utilize a combination of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters.
Like any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not
spray when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to
be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to
rec.gardens.edible, where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

"paghat" wrote

snip excellent post

I believe I have said this before, but...
Paghat-- you rock!


(another one filed away for future reference)


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just
with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're
aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

Nonsense.

1) Use the pharmaceutical analogy. The only way to assure the safety of a
new drug is to test it on the target population, and even then, long term
effects can only be determined by waiting and seeing. Yard chemicals cannot
be tested in this way, at least not within the morals of this society. The
chemical companies themselves say that animal testing is irrelevant. Since
they cannot be tested on people, safety cannot be determined.

It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple
maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else
works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch
sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from
Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come
up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the
same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He
strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed"
but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big
"if."

John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for
the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical
industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not
incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning
curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit
for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very
swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a
dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).

-paghat the ratgirl

Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical

2) In the early 1970s, the chemical industry purchased legislation which
exempted a long list of so-called "inert ingredients" from what little
testing is done to begin with.
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn...ts&figures.htm This is a
summary for the layman, but with cites. This link will provide you with more
than enough other information to keep you busy for awhile:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ts&btnG=Search

The "inert" ingredients include quite a few things which are known, beyond
dispute, to be harmful to humans in some way. Toluene, for instance.

I'm not disputing what you say, in terms of what works on which pests, but I
do think it's irresponsible to suggest the use of ANY chemical to a person
who has not demonstrated the least bit of knowledge in terms of which bugs
he's trying to deal with. That, to me, is a prerequisite, and a crucial one.
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical

Oops - that was left incomplete. Fixed:

Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical was tested on humans. Maybe it happened
twice, even 3 times. Irrelevant, statistically. There are hundreds of
products being sold now.

In article ,
says...
Anyone older than 15 who is not aware of the dangers of pesticides should
not be allowed to leave their bedroom. Ever.


I'm aware of the dangers inherent in driving my car or riding my
motorcycle, too. That doesn't stop me from doing so. Nor of having an
almost perfect driving record for 55 years (a couple of speeding
tickets).

Your attitude strikes me as fanatical. There are times when pesticides
are called for. And different compounds used have greatly varying
toxicities.

For example, Sevin, which is quite toxic, is the only thing I've found
that will knock out elm beetle grubs before they deleaf my elm trees. I
wear coveralls and a respirator when I use it, usually once a year.

Malathion, OTOH, is relatively inoucous and I use it to kill thrips and
aphids on my rose bushes and Japanese honeysuckle with short sleeves, no
gloves, and no respirator.

I realize this won't convince you, but I wanted to make others aware
that not all of us are environmental fanatics or, on the other side,
reckless rednecks who spray evrything in sight with the deadliest stuff
we can find. So that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:08:47 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just
with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're
aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

Nonsense.

snipped the pharmetulogical analagy

It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple
maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else
works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch
sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from
Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come
up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the
same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He
strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed"
but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big
"if."
Please cite anything I have written about apple maggot. You will fail
as I have never written on that subject.


John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for
the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical
industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not
incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning
curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit
for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very
swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a
dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).

Please cite just one time that I have promoted "the right chemical for
the right job." Also, when I said anything about cowshit. You will
fail for I have never done either.

Some may praise paghat but she is is off the mark this time and has
demeaned me with false accusations. Bad paghat!

John


-paghat the ratgirl

Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical

2) In the early 1970s, the chemical industry purchased legislation which
exempted a long list of so-called "inert ingredients" from what little
testing is done to begin with.
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn...ts&figures.htm This is a
summary for the layman, but with cites. This link will provide you with more
than enough other information to keep you busy for awhile:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ts&btnG=Search

The "inert" ingredients include quite a few things which are known, beyond
dispute, to be harmful to humans in some way. Toluene, for instance.

I'm not disputing what you say, in terms of what works on which pests, but I
do think it's irresponsible to suggest the use of ANY chemical to a person
who has not demonstrated the least bit of knowledge in terms of which bugs
he's trying to deal with. That, to me, is a prerequisite, and a crucial one.

In article , lgb
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Anyone older than 15 who is not aware of the dangers of pesticides should
not be allowed to leave their bedroom. Ever.


I'm aware of the dangers inherent in driving my car or riding my
motorcycle, too. That doesn't stop me from doing so. Nor of having an
almost perfect driving record for 55 years (a couple of speeding
tickets).

Your attitude strikes me as fanatical. There are times when pesticides
are called for. And different compounds used have greatly varying
toxicities.

For example, Sevin, which is quite toxic, is the only thing I've found
that will knock out elm beetle grubs before they deleaf my elm trees. I
wear coveralls and a respirator when I use it, usually once a year.

Malathion, OTOH, is relatively inoucous and I use it to kill thrips and
aphids on my rose bushes and Japanese honeysuckle with short sleeves, no
gloves, and no respirator.

I realize this won't convince you, but I wanted to make others aware
that not all of us are environmental fanatics or, on the other side,
reckless rednecks who spray evrything in sight with the deadliest stuff
we can find. So that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

What convinces me is stories such as you tell of always needing so always
using all sorts of toxins for all sorts of garden problems. i never use
them, never need them. My elms are healthy, the roses are healthy, the
honeysuckles are healthy, never been assaulted by thrips, have gotten rid
of aphids with nothing more than a couple drops of dishwashing soap in a
gallon of water, sometimes just with the water. Why is that my garden does
fabulously & never requires ME to get a respirator, moon suit, & five
kinds of toxins to spray about? God loves me but hates you? I'm lucky,
you're not? Or are we both experiencing the results of our own actions?

It's quite clear that chemical dependency breeds chemical dependency by
throwing gardens completely out of balance. The longer one gardens
organically, the better that semblance of natural balance that could never
be sustained in a soup of recurring toxic assaults.

Chemical-dependent gardens are perpetually stressed from being perpetually
out of wack. Toxins have killed so many beneficial insects & soil
microorganisms & so weakened the plantlife that all such a gardener can
do is try to patch over the damage with the same array of toxins that
caused the damage.

Thrips tend to be a greater problem where beneficial insects have been
removed from the environment -- predator insects are always slower to
return than are pests, so pests return rapidly & further toxification is
undertaken before even the slightest semblance of balance can be restored.


And anyone who thinks they need malathion for aphids just isn't thinking
about these things rationally; it's like if an itchy toe could be fixed by
scratching it for a couple seconds, & you decide to bang on it with a
sledgehammer as the best line of defense. I have to assume the other
chemical decisions were as unsoundly based, because the rational you've
dismissed as radical. You posit a worst-case scenario of thrips stripping
elms, yet you can't kill elm thrips without also killing a whole array of
beneficial insects thus making the environment MORE inviting to thrips for
the next cycle. The LASTING method of thrip control is with predatory
mites, soil mites, lady beetles, & nematodes -- but everytime you toxify
the environment instead, you destroy a dozen beneficial components of the
environment sledgehammering the one harmful pest, thus causing the
problems to escalate year by year rather than diminish.

It's amazing to me that people in love with their toxic methods call those
of us who don't use toxins "radical," yet you keep getting pests in your
garden while I do not. If there were legitimately a problem in my garden
that only synthetic toxins had any chance of taking care of, I would
consider that option, but I've gardened since the 1960s & over time even
the "exceptions" I once thought were necessary were not exceptions at all.
An organically balanced garden is a healthy garden. A chemical-dependent
garden is not. It sometimes takes more patience with organic methods -- in
three years it is possible by biological means to get rid of Japanese
beetles once & for all, but people who prefer toxins will be using them
forever annually patching over a problem that will never cease.

To me you sound like the radical, not because you require toxins so much
as you require blinders. You believe you can't get rid of aphids without
synthetic pesticides, so why is that I can do so very easily. You have
harmful pests that you believe cannot be controlled without harsh
pesticides, but I have so few harmful pests that their damage, if any, is
never visible. You have to spray your shrubs & trees because they are
attacked by pests & disease, but mine are neither diseased nor infested
though I do not spray even with organically approved pesticides let alone
the nastiest stuff you rely on. Why would your garden be so doomed without
annual applications of sundry toxins, but mine thrives without them? I
don't believe I'm just lucky & you're cursed by God; their are rational
reasons for my not having the problems that afflict your garden, & those
reasons are methological.

You've made an emotional or political decision (rather than a reasoned or
scientific one) to dismiss effective methods as "radical" if they do not
require toxins. And so yhou put on your moonsuit & respirator to take care
of problems that keep recurring because of your actions. That's very much
like banging your head into a wall & when you discover your head is
injured, bang it a second, third, & fourth time, never realizing the
problems are returning because of, not in spite of, your actions.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

In article , John Bachman
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:08:47 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just
with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden
chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're
aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

Nonsense.

snipped the pharmetulogical analagy

It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple
maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else
works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch
sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from
Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come
up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the
same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He
strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed"
but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big
"if."
Please cite anything I have written about apple maggot. You will fail
as I have never written on that subject.


John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for
the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical
industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not
incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning
curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit
for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very
swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a
dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).

Please cite just one time that I have promoted "the right chemical for
the right job." Also, when I said anything about cowshit. You will
fail for I have never done either.

Some may praise paghat but she is is off the mark this time and has
demeaned me with false accusations. Bad paghat!

John


If I partially confused your error about plum curculio with Sherwin's
error about apple maggots, my apologies. When you made the untrue
statement about plum curculio, you called it "another" pest that required
synthetic chemicals to control. I assumed by "another" you were insisting
apple maggots as mentioned earlier in the thread required toxic sprays, &
"another" one that required it was plum curculio. If you had a third pest
in mind I missed it somehow.

I'll post the relevant information on plum curculio further below, it'll
make a good match for the citation-riddled data on organic control of
apple maggots I already provided. But your denying the cowshit post is
more fun just now:

If you never made the "farmy smell" post there must be two John Bachmans.
Ever since you or your evil twin posted about the glories of the farmy
smell of cow manure, Granny Artemis & I have incorporated the phrase
"ahhh, that lovely farmy smell!" as our recurring synonym for "cowshit"
every time we drive by a dairy. I just this minute did a google-groups
search on the phrase "farmy smell" to find out if I'd been miscrediting
that lovely discription of cowshit to the wrong fellow. I only got one
hit, & it certainly appears to be you saying how much you enjoy the "farmy
smell" of cow manu
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens.edible/msg/813bab6a3eab3f95?dmode=source&hl=en

Having long ago lived next door to a dairy for a year, these sorts of
references stick in my memory. I may even write a cowshit article for
paghat.com someday, I've got many garden notes about cowshit just waiting
to organize. In fact I lived between a dairy & the now defunct Longacres
race track, & between the odors of horse shit & the cowshit, the horseshit
was sweeter, but to each his own. Why you wouldn't want to be admired for
liking the smell of cowshit best puzzles me. Even Garrison Keeler would
agree with you, in his spoof of a Copeland diddy, ending on the
sentimental lyric: "Proud and sure, cow manure, I know where I am," for
which I wish I possessed the entire lyrics.

I think I remember pretty correctly your recurring advocacies of the right
chemical properly used, though that certainly was not an exact quote as
"farmy smell" was. Maybe you just don't know how your advocacy sounds
sometimes. Very much in keeping with your post in this thread asserting
that following label instructions renders all pesticides totally safe --
that's just untrue. The reality is that "used as directed," pesticides &
herbicides have done great harm to watersheds & lakes & locally to Hood
Canal, it took no off-label use to do great harm. Used strictly as
directed, these chemicals have accumulative effects which label
instructions don't take into consideration, combining effects when other
chemicals are added into the garden mix according to THEIR directions, all
of which degrades or combines into still other chemicals, many
carcinogenic, none of those assessed before those misleading instructions
are concocted.

Indeed the labeling is vastly more for legal rather than safety concerns.

It did not surprise me that you expressed a profound & misguided faith in
labels which instruct that toxins be dumped in your immediate environment.
It doesn't mean I disrespect you the way i would disrespect a Monsanto
flack pretending to be a disinterested party as he obeys the company
dictate to muddle every argument, but on another level its sometimes more
annoying when reasonable people make unreasonable assertions.

Really I was responding to your untrue statement that "another pest" (I
assumed you meant in addition to the apple maggot that had just been
discussed in the thread) that cannot be controlled organically was plum
curculio. You were dead wrong but i weary sometimes of correcting that
sort of misinformation & so posted about your love of cowshit instead,
thinking myself amusing rather than bad for it.

Both those orchard pests are now pretty easily controlled organically.
That plum curulio was once believed to have no effective organic control
was disproven a good five years ago, when the final barriers hampering
organic orchards in the Northeast fell away (Pacific Nrthwest organic
orcharders didn't want the sudden competition & were sorry the
Northeasterners wised up).

Surround is approved as an organic pesticide. The effective ingredient of
Surround is natural clay kaolin (hard to call it "active" ingredient since
it is inert). Field trials overseen by Drs. Michael Glenn & Gary Puterka
of the USDA found that orchards that had been experiencing 20 to 30
percent damage from plum curculio dropped to .5 to 1% damage with
application of Surround. (It could well be that with broader organic
principles in place, even Surround would not be necessary, but commercial
orchards are by their nature not mixed-species environments so it's hard
to achieve the prophelactic balance that is easier in a more complex
community of gardened plants).

Now the chemical industry would prefer it if what you said were true, &
would want it noted that Surround does not kill anything at all, but only
suppresses sundry pests up to & including plum curculio. From a growers
point of view there really is no difference, except the well-protected
organic crop has a higher value than a crop from the chemical-dependent.

If I get a wee bit peevish about flat assertions that have no truth &
which misrepresent organic principles as weak or tepid & encouraging
pests, it's cuz it's annoying to see presumedly reasonable individuals
insisting on such falsehoods then advovating the use of harmful toxins as
completely safe safety when used responsibility & mistakenly insisting
there is no choice about it.

Invariably, as in the two examples presented in this thread by yourself &
Sherwin, there is always a choice. The decision to further toxify the
environment cannot possibly be arrived at responsibly when the first piece
of "reasoning" is that pests can't be organically controlled so there is
no choice. Frequently the organic choice is objectively the more effective
choice, & yet advocates of toxicity don't want the documentation of such
facts, won't read the science, & will rarely correct their story.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

I have noticed several things in paghat's replies on this topic.

For one, she talks about her experiences with Elm Trees and Roses. Does she
grow apples or plums? She quotes a lot about this study and that, but what direct
experience does she have herself. For every reference she quotes about organic
methods, I can find an equal number of those advocating spraying with chemicals.

Paghat also fails to make a distinction between commercial orchards and home orchards.
A commercial orchard cannot closely monitor the effects of hundreds of
trees, and therefore takes a 'blanket' approach to control. The more sophisticated
of these orchards will put out traps to determine what type of insect is attacking, and
when best to treat for it. A home orchardist can be more selective and can do a better
job of monitoring pest damage.

Although I concentrated on insects, fungus problems are also something which can
ruin your crop, and even kill your fruit trees. I have not found any organic fungicides
that work effectively, and I have tried quite a few, like Rhotenone.

Lastly, Paghat thinks she can win this argument with documentation. I have examined
some of this material and have found no substantial evidence that organic
methods can control the problems already mentioned. The growers in my Fruit Club
who use organic methods are limited to two choices. Accepting a goodly amount of
ruined fruit and/or limiting themselves to certain disease resistant varieties, which only
takes care of fungus, but not insect problems. I work too hard maintaining my trees to
see the fruits of my labor thrown away by insect infestation. Not to mention the trees
that are lost by insects like borers. I consider the state of the art, that organic methods
can be used to cut down on problems, but have not quite reached the point where they alone
can do the complete job. Unfortunately, the new varieties of apples that are disease
resistant, although improving, have not equaled the taste and flavor of other apples.

If Paghat can grow fruit without spraying, she is certainly a most fortunate person.

Sherwin D.

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled
with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls.

The best method of apple maggot control is the use visual traps for the
adult flies before they lay their eggs, ADDING a natural host odor with
the trap [Rull et al, Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, January
2005 -- note the date, it is very recent research that has shown the
effectiveness of non-sparying techniques].

While it has become a cliche that no organic spray is half as effective as
highly toxic organophosphate type pesticides, it is now well established
that methods other than spraying can be completely effective. Because crop
value is higher for organic crops, there is no net gain by using potent
toxins [Reissig, Journal of Economic Entomology, Oct 2003].

Once a grower realizes spraying is not the best or primary method (organic
or otherwise) comparisons of organic vs non-organic spraying becomes moot.
But fact is, the 2001-2002 Cornell study headed by Terence Robinson of
organic apple techniques (tested in New York & Ontario) discovered control
of apple maggot with organically approved Surround was completely
effective. So the popular cliche that only harmful organophosphate
insecticides work is now conclusively known to be false.

Comparative analysis in Quebec conducted over a ten year period found that
completely unsprayed apple orchards had infestation rates ranging from 0
to 4.1% [Vincent & Mailloux, Annales de la Societe Entomolique de France,
1988; Vincent & Roy, Acta Entomologica et Phytopathologica Hungarica,
1992]. Unless losses exceed 5% it is counterproductive & unnecessary to
even consider chemical spraying. Any gains from using toxins are more than
offset by the extra costs of chemicals plus the lowered value of
non-organic crops.

If apples were not permitted to rot on the ground, the orchard would not
have any apple maggot pupae overwintering in the soil, & the only threat
of infestation is from adult flies coming from outside the orchard. Often
removal of elderly apple trees & hawthorns from surrounding properties is
the only control required. In all cases, by the time eggs are laid, the
maggots are impervious to toxins; so stopping the adult flies at the
periphery becomes the goal. Even growers who do use pesticides often use
them exclusively OFF the periphery of the orchards & NOT on the trees
themselves [Thimble & Solmae in Crop Protection, 1997] since a clean
orchard has no emerging flies inside the periphery. Others who use
insecticides do so only in the scent-baited sticky-traps again to keep
poisons off the crop.

The milestone research of the late Ron Prokopy (who died last year) with
even just unscented traps triggered a revolution in organic apple growing
that left the chemical-dependent growers in the pesticidal dust. Chemical
dependency bred chemical dependency, & here in Washington as the
chemical-dependent growers went bankrupt one after another, organic
growers flourish. The more recent (even just within the last four years)
scent-baiting of the Prokopy traps has has made trap strategies so
extremely effective that organic apple growers have either fewer or no
more losses than lazier less knowledgeable growers who spray & thus
produce a less valuable harvest. Effectiveness of Prokopy sticky traps
PLUS host scent is today the preferred method of apple maggot control,
preserving the added value of organic crops.

The big reason some orchards would still spray today is because they are
producing pig-feed apples & it is too labor intensive both to maintain
bait-scented traps & to clean up fallen apples, when in any case the crop
will remain poorly valued.

In Washington state the primary threat to fully organic apple orchards are
infestations bleeding over from trees grown in the back yards of
homeowners who do not know to control apple maggot with scented
stickytraps, & who let fallen apples remain on the ground so that the next
year's infestation developes. Sponsored programs to involve morons, I mean
backyard amateurs, in the use of scented traps, even providing the traps
for free, & educating the amateurs on the necessity of immediately
cleaning apples off the ground before the worms crawl into the ground to
pupate, is far more effective than trundling out increasing numbers of
increasingly toxic chemicals & pretending there is no way around them --
though certainly the chemical industry's propoganda encourages that
misguided belief. Only the chemical companies themselves continue
promulgate the so-called "integrated" system of traps plus toxic spraying.

-paghat the ratgirl

I still utilize a combination of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters.
Like any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not
spray when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to
be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to
rec.gardens.edible, where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

I have religiously cleaned all fruit from my backyard. I tried all these traps,
and still the insects have come. There are no other fruit trees in my neighborhood
to account for this infestation. The traps help somewhat, but don't do a complete job.

I don't know why paghat keeps talking about commercial orchards. We are home gardeners,
who grow things in our backyards, on a much smaller scale. Insect damage is more
distributed in a large commercial orchard, so if a small percentage of the trees get hit,
there are many others to take up the slack. That is not the case of a home orchard,
where you have only a handful of trees, usually one tree per variety. If one of those
trees gets hit, you have lost that variety of fruit for the season.

You should also mention that these traps are very expensive, especially the pheromones. I have
not noticed any significant retardation of insect attacks using them, so I will not rely
solely on their effectiveness.

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled
with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls.

The best method of apple maggot control is the use visual traps for the
adult flies before they lay their eggs, ADDING a natural host odor with
the trap [Rull et al, Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, January
2005 -- note the date, it is very recent research that has shown the
effectiveness of non-sparying techniques].

While it has become a cliche that no organic spray is half as effective as
highly toxic organophosphate type pesticides, it is now well established
that methods other than spraying can be completely effective. Because crop
value is higher for organic crops, there is no net gain by using potent
toxins [Reissig, Journal of Economic Entomology, Oct 2003].

Once a grower realizes spraying is not the best or primary method (organic
or otherwise) comparisons of organic vs non-organic spraying becomes moot.
But fact is, the 2001-2002 Cornell study headed by Terence Robinson of
organic apple techniques (tested in New York & Ontario) discovered control
of apple maggot with organically approved Surround was completely
effective. So the popular cliche that only harmful organophosphate
insecticides work is now conclusively known to be false.

Comparative analysis in Quebec conducted over a ten year period found that
completely unsprayed apple orchards had infestation rates ranging from 0
to 4.1% [Vincent & Mailloux, Annales de la Societe Entomolique de France,
1988; Vincent & Roy, Acta Entomologica et Phytopathologica Hungarica,
1992]. Unless losses exceed 5% it is counterproductive & unnecessary to
even consider chemical spraying. Any gains from using toxins are more than
offset by the extra costs of chemicals plus the lowered value of
non-organic crops.

If apples were not permitted to rot on the ground, the orchard would not
have any apple maggot pupae overwintering in the soil, & the only threat
of infestation is from adult flies coming from outside the orchard. Often
removal of elderly apple trees & hawthorns from surrounding properties is
the only control required. In all cases, by the time eggs are laid, the
maggots are impervious to toxins; so stopping the adult flies at the
periphery becomes the goal. Even growers who do use pesticides often use
them exclusively OFF the periphery of the orchards & NOT on the trees
themselves [Thimble & Solmae in Crop Protection, 1997] since a clean
orchard has no emerging flies inside the periphery. Others who use
insecticides do so only in the scent-baited sticky-traps again to keep
poisons off the crop.

The milestone research of the late Ron Prokopy (who died last year) with
even just unscented traps triggered a revolution in organic apple growing
that left the chemical-dependent growers in the pesticidal dust. Chemical
dependency bred chemical dependency, & here in Washington as the
chemical-dependent growers went bankrupt one after another, organic
growers flourish. The more recent (even just within the last four years)
scent-baiting of the Prokopy traps has has made trap strategies so
extremely effective that organic apple growers have either fewer or no
more losses than lazier less knowledgeable growers who spray & thus
produce a less valuable harvest. Effectiveness of Prokopy sticky traps
PLUS host scent is today the preferred method of apple maggot control,
preserving the added value of organic crops.

The big reason some orchards would still spray today is because they are
producing pig-feed apples & it is too labor intensive both to maintain
bait-scented traps & to clean up fallen apples, when in any case the crop
will remain poorly valued.

In Washington state the primary threat to fully organic apple orchards are
infestations bleeding over from trees grown in the back yards of
homeowners who do not know to control apple maggot with scented
stickytraps, & who let fallen apples remain on the ground so that the next
year's infestation developes. Sponsored programs to involve morons, I mean
backyard amateurs, in the use of scented traps, even providing the traps
for free, & educating the amateurs on the necessity of immediately
cleaning apples off the ground before the worms crawl into the ground to
pupate, is far more effective than trundling out increasing numbers of
increasingly toxic chemicals & pretending there is no way around them --
though certainly the chemical industry's propoganda encourages that
misguided belief. Only the chemical companies themselves continue
promulgate the so-called "integrated" system of traps plus toxic spraying.

-paghat the ratgirl

I still utilize a combination of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters.
Like any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not
spray when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to
be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to
rec.gardens.edible, where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson