I'm new here, but from the group name, it seems to be the place for this.

We recently bought a home in rural Southern Utah. Zone 10. It is basically
sand dunes on top of lava caps and caliche.

Our back yard is a rolling sand dune. We got the irrigation water system
working this past summer, and what a mistake! I now have lots and lots of
cockleburs. Little spiky spheres about 1/4" in diameter. I went out and
sprayed Roundup on them and the other weeds and grasses I wanted to kill,
but it only killed about half of them. I took a large propane weed burner
to the rest of them. Some burned down, but some still have green centers
that lived.

I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed with
Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during this
winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with his
tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe some
of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate due
to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach? Suggestions which would be easier or better.

When finished, we'll coutour the yard, place retaining wall, reinstall the
sprinklers, and start from scratch. I just don't want a lot of weeds
sprouting through the new grass.

It's probably going to be constant war trying to keep the windblown seeds
and bird borne seeds from getting hold in the new grass.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
I'm new here, but from the group name, it seems to be the place for this.

We recently bought a home in rural Southern Utah. Zone 10. It is
basically sand dunes on top of lava caps and caliche.

Our back yard is a rolling sand dune. We got the irrigation water system
working this past summer, and what a mistake! I now have lots and lots of
cockleburs. Little spiky spheres about 1/4" in diameter. I went out and
sprayed Roundup on them and the other weeds and grasses I wanted to kill,
but it only killed about half of them. I took a large propane weed burner
to the rest of them. Some burned down, but some still have green centers
that lived.

I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed
with Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more
during this winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL
come in with his tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the
roots. Maybe some of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil
and not germinate due to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach? Suggestions which would be easier or
better.

When finished, we'll coutour the yard, place retaining wall, reinstall the
sprinklers, and start from scratch. I just don't want a lot of weeds
sprouting through the new grass.

It's probably going to be constant war trying to keep the windblown seeds
and bird borne seeds from getting hold in the new grass.

Steve

Thermonuclear warhead dropped directly in the center of your yard.

that'll take care of your weed problem

SteveB said:

[...]

I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed with
Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during this
winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with his
tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe some
of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate due
to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach?

No. Glyphosate kills by contact *only*. It has no residual herbicidal
properties, or pre-emergent properties, whatsoever.

And, churning up the ground with a tiller will probably just bring more
seeds to the surface, where they can germinate. "Cockleburr" is a common
name, usually describing Xanthium spinosum L. It's an annual, so 'raking
out the roots' would be a waste of time.

[rest snipped]

--

Eggs

-A man walks into a bar with a slab of asphalt under his arm and says: "A
beer please, and one for the road."

On Oct 31, 6:13 am, Eggs Zachtly wrote:
SteveB said:

[...]



I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed with
Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during this
winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with his
tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe some
of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate due
to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach?

No. Glyphosate kills by contact *only*. It has no residual herbicidal
properties, or pre-emergent properties, whatsoever.

And, churning up the ground with a tiller will probably just bring more
seeds to the surface, where they can germinate. "Cockleburr" is a common
name, usually describing Xanthium spinosum L. It's an annual, so 'raking
out the roots' would be a waste of time.

[rest snipped]

--

Eggs

-A man walks into a bar with a slab of asphalt under his arm and says: "A
beer please, and one for the road."


Also, Roundup has to be applied at higher concentrations to kill tough
weeds. 2% will kill the easy ones, 6% is much more effective. And it
may take 2 applications in some cases. It will kill the whole plant,
so no need to dig out roots of anything.

If you're trying to establish a lawn in a sand dune, you're going to
need topsoil to either mix in or cover the sand. If you cover it with
topsoil, that should keep most of the weed seeds from sprouting. I
guess the real question here is if a traditional lawn is what you
really want for that type of environment, or if you'r better of
landscaping with plants that are suited to what's already there.

Before Considering using chemical weed killers, try some organic techiques to control your weeds, manual weeding, put more grass down so the weeds cant survive, really go all out on them! Remember your garden is alive, weed killer is a chemical i dont always believe its the only solution!

On Nov 1, 9:54 am, Alan Hamlyn Alan.Hamlyn.
wrote:
'SteveB[_2_ Wrote:





;757288']I'm new here, but from the group name, it seems to be the place
for this.

We recently bought a home in rural Southern Utah. Zone 10. It is
basically
sand dunes on top of lava caps and caliche.

Our back yard is a rolling sand dune. We got the irrigation water
system
working this past summer, and what a mistake! I now have lots and lots
of
cockleburs. Little spiky spheres about 1/4" in diameter. I went out
and
sprayed Roundup on them and the other weeds and grasses I wanted to
kill,
but it only killed about half of them. I took a large propane weed
burner
to the rest of them. Some burned down, but some still have green
centers
that lived.

I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed
with
Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during
this
winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with
his
tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe
some
of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate
due
to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach? Suggestions which would be easier or
better.

When finished, we'll coutour the yard, place retaining wall, reinstall
the
sprinklers, and start from scratch. I just don't want a lot of weeds
sprouting through the new grass.

It's probably going to be constant war trying to keep the windblown
seeds
and bird borne seeds from getting hold in the new grass.

Steve

Before Considering using chemical weed killers, try some organic
techiques to control your weeds, manual weeding, put more grass down so
the weeds cant survive, really go all out on them! Remember your garden
is alive, weed killer is a chemical i dont always believe its the only
solution!

--
Alan Hamlyn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Roundup works in a week with minimal labor. Pulling weeds by hand,
in any sizable area is backbreaking work and doesn't work with weeds
that have root systems that just spring back. And trying to grow
grass in an area over run by weeds without first getting rid of them
is a costly, labor intensive, time consuming, water wasting
proposition, destined to fail. If you kill the weeds first, then
seed, it's a one time sure deal. How much pulling, repeat seeding,
watering, and screwing around is it reasonable to do to avoid one
application of Roundup?

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 1, 9:54 am, Alan Hamlyn Alan.Hamlyn.
wrote:
'SteveB[_2_ Wrote:





;757288']I'm new here, but from the group name, it seems to be the
place
for this.

We recently bought a home in rural Southern Utah. Zone 10. It is
basically
sand dunes on top of lava caps and caliche.

Our back yard is a rolling sand dune. We got the irrigation water
system
working this past summer, and what a mistake! I now have lots and lots
of
cockleburs. Little spiky spheres about 1/4" in diameter. I went out
and
sprayed Roundup on them and the other weeds and grasses I wanted to
kill,
but it only killed about half of them. I took a large propane weed
burner
to the rest of them. Some burned down, but some still have green
centers
that lived.

I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed
with
Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during
this
winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with
his
tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe
some
of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate
due
to the Roundup.

Is this the logical approach? Suggestions which would be easier or
better.

When finished, we'll coutour the yard, place retaining wall, reinstall
the
sprinklers, and start from scratch. I just don't want a lot of weeds
sprouting through the new grass.

It's probably going to be constant war trying to keep the windblown
seeds
and bird borne seeds from getting hold in the new grass.

Steve

Before Considering using chemical weed killers, try some organic
techiques to control your weeds, manual weeding, put more grass down so
the weeds cant survive, really go all out on them! Remember your garden
is alive, weed killer is a chemical i dont always believe its the only
solution!

--
Alan Hamlyn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Roundup works in a week with minimal labor. Pulling weeds by hand,
in any sizable area is backbreaking work and doesn't work with weeds
that have root systems that just spring back. And trying to grow
grass in an area over run by weeds without first getting rid of them
is a costly, labor intensive, time consuming, water wasting
proposition, destined to fail. If you kill the weeds first, then
seed, it's a one time sure deal. How much pulling, repeat seeding,
watering, and screwing around is it reasonable to do to avoid one
application of Roundup?

nuclear weapons virtually guarantee "no more weeds" apply liberally. but
please, follow the directions carefully

im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
************quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

wrote in message
...
im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX

On Nov 2, 2:53 pm, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

...
im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX


And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:


http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html


The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,
but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.

wrote:

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX


And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:


http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html


The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,
but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.


Well Trader. I think most on here will agree with you. Do your own thing
just don't tell me that your thing should be mine too. Most on here,
seem to be educated enough about these chemicals to use them properly
and responsibly. Of course there will always be idiots who think that a
"dash" of chemical in the sprayer mix is "close enough" and that 2
"dashes" will work twice as well.
And you will always have idiots who think that if a pint of vinegar and
salt in solution will kill the weeds then a quart will work twice as well.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 2, 2:53 pm, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

...
im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and
Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard
to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX


And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:


http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html


The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,

I would just mind my own business if it wasn't effecting me. Unfortunate,
the chemicals from Roundup, and Weed and Feed products are showing up in our
city water supply. The City of Austin has requested that we (residents of
Austin) quit using these products because of the water and also because of
the numerous trees that we are bless with in Central TX.. My neighbor was
going to use Weed and Feed on his yard close to where I have a grove of live
oaks. Fortunately, we talked about it and he agreed with me. The city mailed
a brochure explaining how these products are harmful. You may want to take
your complaints to city hall.

but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.


You're right about using any product that may contaminate the environment. I
admit to using a very small amount of bleach (1/4 cp per load of whites). We
have a high efficiency washer that uses a lot less energy, water, bleach and
detergent. But that is like being a little bit pregnant. I'll see if I can
get along w/o the bleach.

Please, please discontinue using Roundup. Try using natural herbicides if
you must. I've never used some of the organic suggestions (never needed to)
but as I understand they are as effective without the disastrous effects.

The vegan example is a personal choice as I see it. To each his own and more
power to them. But if that vegan uses Weed and Feed near my trees I've got a
problem with that.

Have you ever considered how many people use Weed and Feed and Roundup and
have never even read the instructions? I'm particularly worried about his
because of the large number of illegals we have in Austin.

wrote in message news:kC%Wi.166866$Xa3.89337@attbi_s22...
wrote:

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and
Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their
yard to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX


And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:


http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html


The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,
but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.


Well Trader. I think most on here will agree with you. Do your own thing
just don't tell me that your thing should be mine too. Most on here, seem
to be educated enough about these chemicals to use them properly and
responsibly. Of course there will always be idiots who think that a "dash"
of chemical in the sprayer mix is "close enough" and that 2 "dashes" will
work twice as well.
And you will always have idiots who think that if a pint of vinegar and
salt in solution will kill the weeds then a quart will work twice as well.

From what I understand it's "garden" vinegar and orange oil. I have some but
I've never used it. I listen to the gardening shows on the radio almost
every Saturday and these guys seem to think it works. It has been in use for
quite a while. We have an enlightened media in Austin regarding gardening.
BTW: They are on a conservative radio station (with Rush L.).

I just pull the weeds. If I had a large lot that needed weeding I would mow
them before they seed. In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating. In Albuquerque, a while back, the
mayor (Dean Rusk from the Carter adm.) let all the weeds grow because he
said that is the best way to get rid of them. In the natural desert there
are very few weeds because the ground isn't tilled. Hoeing weeds gives them
a place to grow. The mayor's experiment never worked cause we had a real wet
year and the weeds grew like crazy. The mayor lost the next election and the
new mayor (Kenny) immediately had the weeds removed.

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place for
seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

--

Eggs

If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

--

Eggs

If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?