So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying? I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

On Jun 15, 6:34*pm, Noviceatlawns Noviceatlawns.
wrote:
So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a
complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have
decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the
lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a
rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds
etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to
be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would
use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait
bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying?
I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

--
Noviceatlawns


First, early Fall is the best time for lawn renovation. You have
declining temps, usually more rain, less competition from weeds.
etc. The new lawn then has a couple months in the Fall and then
several more in Spring to get established before Summer stress
arrives.

What you need to do to the soil depends on what you have there now.
If it's 7 inches of good sandy loam, there is no need to till it. On
the other hand, if the top soil is non-existent or only 2" deep, then
it should be fixed before proceeding. If there is a county
agriculutural agency in your area, often they do soil analysis for a
small fee. You should also make sure the PH is tested and adjusted if
needed.

Assuming the topsoil is OK, then you can kill the whole thing off with
Roundup (glyphosate) the last week of summer. After it dies, mow it
short and remove all the debris. You can re-seed a week after
applying and it usually takes that long or llonger for it to die
off. Look on the internet for glyphosate instead of Roundup, as you
need a lot. Razor is one of the less expensive brands.

After raking up debris, rent a core aerator to aerate the soil. Then
rent a slice seeder to apply the seeds. Make sure to choose a high
quality seed that is appropriate for the climate and application.
Keep it constantly moist for a couple weeks, then slowly start to
water less frequently, but deeper.

wrote in message
...
On Jun 15, 6:34 pm, Noviceatlawns Noviceatlawns.
wrote:
So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a
complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have
decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the
lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a
rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds
etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to
be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would
use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait
bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying?
I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

--
Noviceatlawns


First, early Fall is the best time for lawn renovation. You have
declining temps, usually more rain, less competition from weeds.
etc. The new lawn then has a couple months in the Fall and then
several more in Spring to get established before Summer stress
arrives.

What you need to do to the soil depends on what you have there now.
If it's 7 inches of good sandy loam, there is no need to till it. On
the other hand, if the top soil is non-existent or only 2" deep, then
it should be fixed before proceeding. If there is a county
agriculutural agency in your area, often they do soil analysis for a
small fee. You should also make sure the PH is tested and adjusted if
needed.

Assuming the topsoil is OK, then you can kill the whole thing off with
Roundup (glyphosate) the last week of summer. After it dies, mow it
short and remove all the debris. You can re-seed a week after
applying and it usually takes that long or llonger for it to die
off. Look on the internet for glyphosate instead of Roundup, as you
need a lot. Razor is one of the less expensive brands.

After raking up debris, rent a core aerator to aerate the soil. Then
rent a slice seeder to apply the seeds. Make sure to choose a high
quality seed that is appropriate for the climate and application.
Keep it constantly moist for a couple weeks, then slowly start to
water less frequently, but deeper.

Slow down ~ - before you get carried away by the above -- the answer to your
question depends on where you live and what kind of turf grass you want to
use. Some of the above answer may make sense in the U.S. midwest but not
where you're located in the UK. There's no substitute for local knowledge,
but also I don't think you need to obsess over the lawn in the way suggested
here. You may want to use sod instead of seed, or the best type for your
area may be a sterile hybrid that does not have seed, making sod mandatory.
Most turf grass doesn't send down deep roots so it's overkill to do much
more than level everything and make sure it drains well. Trying to change
the basic pH of a location is an exercise in futility because of all the
forces that will be trying to keep it at a certain point. Almost all of
your lawn's food comes from above ground, not below -- you can grow
perfectly good sod on a slab of concrete if you provide it with regular
water and fertilizer.

Lawns are a good example of the 90 / 10 rule. You can get a 90% lawn with
10% effort. Getting that last 10% takes an ever increasing amount of money
and effort and isn't worth it. Better to spend the time going fishing. --

On Jun 18, 9:49*pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 6:34 pm, Noviceatlawns Noviceatlawns.





wrote:
So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a
complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have
decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the
lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a
rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds
etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to
be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would
use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait
bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying?
I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

--
Noviceatlawns

First, early Fall is the best time for lawn renovation. * You have
declining temps, usually more rain, less competition from weeds.
etc. * The new lawn then has a couple months in the Fall and then
several more in Spring to get established before Summer stress
arrives.

What you need to do to the soil depends on what you have there now.
If it's 7 inches of good sandy loam, there is no need to till it. * On
the other hand, if the top soil is non-existent or only 2" deep, then
it should be fixed before proceeding. *If there is a county
agriculutural agency in your area, often they do soil analysis for a
small fee. *You should also make sure the PH is tested and adjusted if
needed.

Assuming the topsoil is OK, then you can kill the whole thing off with
Roundup (glyphosate) the last week of summer. * After it dies, mow it
short and remove all the debris. * You can re-seed a week after
applying and it usually takes that long or llonger *for it to die
off. * Look on the internet for glyphosate instead of Roundup, as you
need a lot. * Razor is one of the less expensive brands.

After raking up debris, rent a core aerator to aerate the soil. * Then
rent a slice seeder to apply the seeds. * Make sure to choose a high
quality seed that is appropriate for the climate and application.
Keep it constantly moist for a couple weeks, then slowly start to
water less frequently, but deeper.

Slow down ~ - before you get carried away by the above -- the answer to your
question depends on where you live and what kind of turf grass you want to
use. *Some of the above answer may make sense in the U.S. midwest but not
where you're located in the UK. *There's no substitute for local knowledge,
but also I don't think you need to obsess over the lawn in the way suggested
here. *You may want to use sod instead of seed,

What makes sod less obsessive than killing off and renovating? If
anything, it's MORE expensive and certainly more work.


or the best type for your
area may be a sterile hybrid that does not have seed, making sod mandatory.
Most turf grass doesn't send down deep roots so it's overkill to do much
more than level everything and make sure it drains well.

I have to strongly disagree. The guy wants to establish a new lawn.
Grass does much better, looks better, stays green with less water, is
less subject to disease and fungus, etc if it has a thick layer of
good topsoil. He can make sure he has that upfront and avoid years
of frustration, more water, chemicals, work, etc. Or he can start
spending money on seed, fertilizer, sod, labor, etc, only to have sub
par results. It's a lot like painting. If you want it to be done
right, it's all about the prep work. In the extreme case, suppose he
has just gravel? Would you recommend just proceeding with seed or
sod on that?


*Trying to change
the basic pH of a location is an exercise in futility because of all the
forces that will be trying to keep it at a certain point. *Almost all of
your lawn's food comes from above ground, not below -- you can grow
perfectly good sod on a slab of concrete if you provide it with regular
water and fertilizer.

That's contrary to the advice of every turf grass expert who's advice
I've seen. There is a range of PH that is best suited to turf. The
desired range varies depending on the species. But if it's not in
the range, it should be adjusted. And in most cases, if it's out,
it's on the acidic side, with limestone being the easy and cheap
fix. It's only futile in the sense that it will only last a couple
years and then you need to add more. But that's true with
fertilizer and most everything else too.



Lawns are a good example of the 90 / 10 rule. *You can get a 90% lawn with
10% effort. *Getting that last 10% takes an ever increasing amount of money
and effort and isn't worth it. *Better to spend the time going fishing. --

There's truth to that. But we can't see his existing lawn. If
it's a real mess, then he's plan to renovate makes good sense and
isn't inconsistent with the above.

wrote in message
...
On Jun 18, 9:49 pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 6:34 pm, Noviceatlawns Noviceatlawns.


wrote:
So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a
complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have
decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the
lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a
rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds
etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to
be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would
use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait
bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying?
I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

--
Noviceatlawns

First, early Fall is the best time for lawn renovation.
[--]
the answer to your
question depends on where you live and what kind of turf grass you want to
use. Some of the above answer may make sense in the U.S. midwest but not
where you're located in the UK. There's no substitute for local knowledge,
but also I don't think you need to obsess over the lawn in the way
suggested
here. You may want to use sod instead of seed,

What makes sod less obsessive than killing off and renovating? If
anything, it's MORE expensive and certainly more work.

-- The OP implied he was going to lay sod, and in the long run I think it
will provide a better lawn and takes less care at the beginning


or the best type for your
area may be a sterile hybrid that does not have seed, making sod
mandatory.
Most turf grass doesn't send down deep roots so it's overkill to do much
more than level everything and make sure it drains well.

[--]

Trying to change
the basic pH of a location is an exercise in futility because of all the
forces that will be trying to keep it at a certain point. Almost all of
your lawn's food comes from above ground, not below -- you can grow
perfectly good sod on a slab of concrete if you provide it with regular
water and fertilizer.

That's contrary to the advice of every turf grass expert who's advice
I've seen. There is a range of PH that is best suited to turf. The
desired range varies depending on the species. But if it's not in
the range, it should be adjusted. And in most cases, if it's out,
it's on the acidic side, with limestone being the easy and cheap
fix. [--]

Here's a quote from the extension service --

"Modifying the soil's pH is not recommended. Alkaline soils will not stay
acidic if chemically altered. In general, slightly acidic soils need not be
modified"

OTOH, if the pH was down below 4, limestone could be used to bring it to a
lower acidic level, but the need would be there to repeatedly relime the
property. Particiularly in the UK, which has had an acid rain problem, the
effects of lime are quickly lost to the persistent rainfall.

A key point is that the OP resides in the UK, and is moving into a house
which had an existing lawn. Based on my experience there many/most homes
will have lawns that are small enough that laying sod shouldn't be a big
task - and the OP implied that he was planning on using sod --. Better to
use a turfgrass variety that specifically thrives in the area in which the
OP lives (ie, the UK). Mostly the UK has good turf, but there are some
areas where it just won't grow --

So I would first find out why the existing lawn is in bad shape - is the OP
near the ocean with salt spray? Was the house built on Welsh coal mine
tailings? If it was just due to bad care, then I would:

1. Remove any rocks, construction debris, etc.
2. Mow the old lawn at a very low height
3. Spray with glyphosate
4. Wait 2 weeks and respray any areas that regrew, if necessary. If you're
in a hurry and using sod you can even skip steps 3 and 4 without unduly
jeopardizing your lawn, although I would do them in your situation.
5. Turn the soil to break it up and level the area so that it slopes away
from the house and has no low areas that would collect water
6. Only consider soil amendments and lime if there were some unusual
conditions - e.g., covered in gravel, used as a parking lot, or you needed
to fill in a part of the lawn
7. If I had the money-- or if the best turfgrass is only available by
vegetative reproduction (no seeds for sale) -- sod the area with a quality
product. Any place there is a significant grade I would insist on sod
instead of seed.
7a. If I couldn't afford sod, buy a quality, locally-appropriate seed for
application, keeping in mind the initial care is going to be much more
extensive than if sod is laid down.

Given most locations in the UK, I wouldn't worry about waiting until the
fall - the climate is not going to be severe enough to warrant the delay. --
and if you use sod and were in a hurry you could even skip steps 2 and 4
without creating much of a weed problem, as long as you turned the the soil
well. In either case, once you turn the soil you're exposing a new seed
bank of weeds to air, light and moisture.

One point - mow first, then use the glyphosate - the chemical is much more
effective when the grass blade is cut and trying to regrow.


I think we both are in general agreement on the steps, but the way I read
the question he doesn't have to worry about some of the steps you had in
your solution. If the OP was buying a new house in a clay belt or rocky
part of the U.S. midwest it would be a different story. In the UK the soil
and weather are mostly favorable for good turfgrass unless you're near the
ocean and have a salt and/or sand problem.

On Jun 21, 9:55*pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jun 18, 9:49 pm, "JimR" wrote:



wrote in message

....
On Jun 15, 6:34 pm, Noviceatlawns Noviceatlawns.

wrote:
So glad I found this forum. I will apologise straight away as I am a
complete novice at gardening in general and could use some advice.

We've moved into a new house and the lawn is in a bad state so we have
decide that it is the best to kill it off and re turf. Once I kill the
lawn and weeds, I was told by a friend that I would need to hire a
rotavator to churn up the earth, rake it and pull out clumps and weeds
etc, and then put a top soil down. Is this about right? I just want to
be sure I am being pointed in the right direction!!

I've read on websites about soil improvers. Is that something I would
use in addition to the top soil? Also, and idea how long to wait
bewteen putting weed/lawn killer down and proceeding with turf laying?
I read somewhere that it should be about 6 weeks?

Many thanks for any responses

--
Noviceatlawns

First, early Fall is the best time for lawn renovation.

[--]
*the answer to your

question depends on where you live and what kind of turf grass you want to
use. Some of the above answer may make sense in the U.S. midwest but not
where you're located in the UK. There's no substitute for local knowledge,
but also I don't think you need to obsess over the lawn in the way
suggested
here. You may want to use sod instead of seed,

What makes sod less obsessive than killing off and renovating? * If
anything, it's MORE expensive and certainly more work.

-- The OP implied he was going to lay sod, and in the long run I think it
will provide a better lawn and takes less care at the beginning

or the best type for your
area may be a sterile hybrid that does not have seed, making sod
mandatory.
Most turf grass doesn't send down deep roots so it's overkill to do much
more than level everything and make sure it drains well.

[--]

Trying to change
the basic pH of a location is an exercise in futility because of all the
forces that will be trying to keep it at a certain point. Almost all of
your lawn's food comes from above ground, not below -- you can grow
perfectly good sod on a slab of concrete if you provide it with regular
water and fertilizer.

That's contrary to the advice of every turf grass expert who's advice
I've seen. * There is a range of PH that is best suited to turf. * The
desired range varies depending on the species. * But if it's not in
the range, it should be adjusted. * And in most cases, if it's out,
it's on the acidic side, with limestone being the easy and cheap
fix. * *[--]

Here's a quote from the extension service --

"Modifying the soil's pH is not recommended. Alkaline soils will not stay
acidic if chemically altered. In general, slightly acidic soils need not be
modified"

You didn't specify shat extension service that quote is from, nor the
context. Here is what Penn State says about turfgrass and PH:

http://turfgrassmanagement.psu.edu/liming.cfm

"cool-swason turfgrassses usually grow best in soils ranging from 6.0
to 7.2. Kentucky bluegrass, the most widely used cool-season turfgrass
in Pennsylvania, grows best when soil pH is between 6.5 and 7.2. Fine
fescues, bentgrasses, turf-type perennial ryegrasses, and turf-type
tall fescues are somewhat more tolerant of slightly acid soils (6.0 to
6.5) than Kentucky bluegrass.

Why is liming important?

Soil pH affects turfgrass health by influencing availability of plant
nutrients and other elements, thatch decomposition, some turfgrass
pests, and pesticide activity.

Strongly acid soils (pH less than or equal to 5.5) may lead to
deficiencies in calcium, magnesium, or phosphorus and increase
availability of aluminum and manganese in amounts that may be toxic to
turfgrasses. Liming improves plant nutrient availability and reduces
toxicity problems in acid soils.

In strongly alkaline soils (pH greater than or equal to 8.5), the
formation of insoluble tricalcium phosphate makes the phosphorus
unavailable to the plant. Iron chlorosis, an indication of iron
deficiency, may be seen on some plants growing in soils high in pH.
Since most soils in Pennsylvania are not strongly alkaline, these
types of deficiencies are not often encountered. Exceptions may occur
when too much lime is applied to established turf or to the soil prior
to planting.

Many beneficial soil microorganisms do not thrive in strongly acid
soils. Some of these microorganisms break-down certain nitrogen
fertilizers, thereby releasing the nitrogen for use by the turfgrass.
Fertilizers containing nitrogen from ureaform, sulfur-coated urea, or
natural organic sources are not effective unless certain
microorganisms are present in sufficient quantities.

Soil microorganisms also aid in the decomposition of thatch and grass
clippings. Thatch is the dense accumulation of organic material on the
soil surface beneath the grass. A thatch layer restricts movement of
air, water, nutrients, and pesticides into the soil. Soil pH in the
range of 6.0 to 7.0 increases microbial activity and helps reduce
thatch.

Some turfgrass diseases are influenced by soil pH. Although the
reasons for this are not well understood, there is some evidence to
suggest that in very acid soils the populations of microorganisms that
suppress pathogenic fungi are reduced. In addition, plants growing in
acid soils may be more susceptible to disease because they are
suffering from nutrient deficiencies or aluminum toxicity. Conversely,
there are at least two turfgrass diseases (take-all patch and Fusarium
patch) that are suppressed in acid soils. Fortunately, these diseases
rarely cause problems in home lawns. Optimum pH (6.0 to 7.0) does not
prevent turfgrass disease, but it can reduce the severity of
infestation."


OTOH, if the pH was down below 4, limestone could be used to bring it to a
lower acidic level, but the need would be there to repeatedly relime the
property. *Particiularly in the UK, which has had an acid rain problem, the
effects of lime are quickly lost to the persistent rainfall.

As I said, so what? Fertilizer, water, herbicides, etc don't persist
forever either. So, he has to add lime every 2-3 years.




A key point is that the OP resides in the UK, and is moving into a house
which had an existing lawn. *Based on my experience there many/most homes
will have lawns that are small enough that laying sod shouldn't be a big
task - and the OP implied that he was planning on using sod --. Better to
use a turfgrass variety that specifically thrives in the area in which the
OP lives (ie, the UK). *Mostly the UK has good turf, but there are some
areas where it just won't grow --

So I would first find out why the existing lawn is in bad shape - is the OP
near the ocean with salt spray? *Was the house built on Welsh coal mine
tailings? *If it was just due to bad care, then I would:

1. Remove any rocks, construction debris, etc.
2. *Mow the old lawn at a very low height
3. *Spray with glyphosate
4. *Wait 2 weeks and respray any areas that regrew, if necessary. *If you're
in a hurry and using sod you can even skip steps 3 and 4 without unduly
jeopardizing your lawn, although I would do them in your situation.
5. *Turn the soil to break it up and level the area so that it slopes away
from the house and has no low areas that would collect water
6. *Only consider soil amendments and lime if there were some unusual
conditions *- e.g., covered in gravel, used as a parking lot, or you needed
to fill in a part of the lawn
7. *If I had the money-- or if the best turfgrass is only available by
vegetative reproduction (no seeds for sale) -- *sod the area with a quality
product. *Any place there is a significant grade I would insist on sod
instead of seed.
7a. *If I couldn't afford sod, buy a quality, locally-appropriate seed for
application, keeping in mind the initial care is going to be much more
extensive than if sod is laid down.

Given most locations in the UK, I wouldn't worry about waiting until the
fall - the climate is not going to be severe enough to warrant the delay. -- *
and if you use sod and were in a hurry you could even skip steps 2 and 4
without creating much of a weed problem, as long as you turned the the soil
well. *In either case, once you turn the soil you're exposing a new seed
bank of weeds to air, light and moisture.

I agree that if he wants to do it in summer, then sod is the way to
go. If he wants to seed, then doing it now instead of waiting a
couple months, is, IMO, a big mistake.




One point - mow first, then use the glyphosate - the chemical is much more
effective when the grass blade is cut and trying to regrow.

I think we both are in general agreement on the steps, but the way I read
the question he doesn't have to worry about some of the steps you had in
your solution. *If the OP was buying a new house in a clay belt or rocky
part of the U.S. midwest it would be a different story. *In the UK the soil
and weather are mostly favorable for good turfgrass unless you're near the
ocean and have a salt and/or sand problem.

I'm not sure exactly what steps you disagree with. I suggested that
he find out what kind of topsoil layer he has, not assume that it is
fine because it wasn't a parking lot. It's a new house, who knows
what is or isn't there. And if it isn't good, then to figure out
how to get decent topsoil BEFORE seeding or laying sod, because having
good topsoil now can save years of trying to fix problems later, with
the lawn requiring more maintenance and never looking as good.

You suggested he till the soil. That is a lot MORE work than the
process I laid out of establishing a new lawn from seed by using a
core aerator and slice seeder. Dealing with a lawn full of clumps of
dead grass, trying to level it out, rake it, is a lot of work. And
I suggested to test and adjust the PH, if needed. Adjusting the PH
is trivial. It's nothing more than spreading some limestone. I'm
sure any sod supplier will recommend that step as well. Tending to a
newly seeded lawn may be zero additional work compared to lawn from
sod. If it's relatively flat, the only difference is for the first
couple months the seeded lawn needs to be watered more frequently.
If he has a sprinkler system, the extra work could be zippo. I would
agree that if he has some slopes, then erossion is a consideration and
sod has an advantage there.

And I'd say you have no way of knowing what the soil is like anywhere,
regardless of the geography. When houses are built, grading is
frequently done which strips away what is there from most of the
tract and then sometimes good topsoil which was removed is reapplied,
or sometimes you get little or none. Also, areas can be disturbed
from trenches for utilities, sewers, etc at various times and again
backfilled with crap. There have been plenty of folks here
lamenting about new homes with crap lawns that have little or no
decent topsoil. The only way to know is to actually take some samples
and look.