I have a phal orchid that has been blooming for 18 months and now it has
what appears to be a clone or new plant growing out of an old spike.
With leaves and its own roots! It is an indoor plant here in Seattle,
but I put it out in the summer.

Is this part of the same plant? A new plant? A separate clone (same
DNA)?

Can it be separated? Should it be separated? (those little roots are
hanging in mid air)

Thanks.

George

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:51:34 GMT, the moke monster
wrote:

Is this part of the same plant? A new plant? A separate clone (same
DNA)?

Can it be separated? Should it be separated? (those little roots are
hanging in mid air)

Thanks.
George

The Keiki is a baby of Mom and when the root mass sum is 6" or
greater the plant can be separated. If you firmly (gentle now)
grasp the keiki and gently twist and pull it should snap off the
spike. I would wait as long as possible before doing this. If
your not sure, you can also bend the spike down until you can
plant the keiki in a pot of its own and allow it to grow on while
still attached. It has roots and you are leery of snapping it
off the stem, cut the spike on both sides of the keiki and pot
the new plant up.

Now that you know your alternatives, YES, this is the same DNA
and a clone of the original. So give the new little guy the same
name and tag markings as the original plant.

Phals put out keikis for various reasons. Mom is dying? Mom was
shocked by something, genetics (as in some do it often) and for
reasons we will not understand. So if the keiki is big enough
remove it and when you do, especially as Mom has been blooming
for 18 months, Repot her and check the roots. Is your big plant
looking good? Has it put out a leaf or three during this
extended bloom cycle? YOu need to put some effort into making
sure the large plant will continue to grow. If it is stressed by
bad roots, make sure the keiki is at least trying to support its
own growth with roots planted, even if it is still attached.

Yes, I lost a lovely big Phal after 18 months of constant bloom.
It had not grown a new leaf and I was not paying enough attention
to its health. I was too lost in the beauty of the flowers to
look to plant itself.
Good luck and good growing.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Every time I hear this advice, it seems the root mass index gets bigger.
Wasn't it just a while ago that 3-4" was enough? Is this inflation, or
what? :-)
--
Reka
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
--Winston Churchill
"Susan Erickson" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

The Keiki is a baby of Mom and when the root mass sum is 6" or
greater the plant can be separated.


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Hi Reka, Yes, I was thinking the same thing? Trying to think of some clever
Math wording here for Sue, but
it's too early ......(the power of the square root is than that which = ?)
But I suppose it's better to be safer than sorry?
I think the secret is in staking the baby plant so that it feels secure!
Cheers Wendy

"Reka" wrote in message
news
Every time I hear this advice, it seems the root mass index gets bigger.
Wasn't it just a while ago that 3-4" was enough? Is this inflation, or
what? :-)
--
Reka
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
--Winston Churchill
"Susan Erickson" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

The Keiki is a baby of Mom and when the root mass sum is 6" or
greater the plant can be separated.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29.09.03

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:21:02 -0700, "Wendy"
wrote:

Hi Reka, Yes, I was thinking the same thing? Trying to think of some clever
Math wording here for Sue, but
it's too early ......(the power of the square root is than that which = ?)
But I suppose it's better to be safer than sorry?
I think the secret is in staking the baby plant so that it feels secure!
Cheers Wendy

I will admit to maybe enlarging 'root mass index.' I don't feel
secure at 2-3". I did not realize I had increased it that much.
You are right 6 is a bit much.

As Wendy says. "The SECRET is in Staking the keiki securely."
All orchids want to be secure in the pot. We used to pack them
in so tightly that immediately after potting you could pick up
the plant and pot by the plant leaves. This is damaging to
delicate roots. Secure is better defined as not moving when set
down and no longer supported by you. So tap the pot on the side
and against the table to settle the mix in around the roots.
Even water it in gently. But do not force the potting media down
around the roots with direct pressure. If the plant is 'potted'
but not secure, use a pot clip or tie it to the hanger or stake
with in the pot.
My vote on a keiki that is on an old spike is to leave it
attached, pot the roots up and use a wire staple or pot-clip to
tie the small plant to the pot. Now find a way to support the
small pot at the height the spike carries it. This is much the
way you take layered cuttings from shrubs. After a couple of
months the keiki will be established in the pot and the shock of
removing it from the main plant will be lessened.

Is that better girls. Nothing like getting Both CA and Italy on
the same page. G
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

chuckle Excellent Sue! Cheers Wendy
"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:21:02 -0700, "Wendy"
wrote:

Hi Reka, Yes, I was thinking the same thing? Trying to think of some
clever
Math wording here for Sue, but
it's too early ......(the power of the square root is than that which =
?)
But I suppose it's better to be safer than sorry?
I think the secret is in staking the baby plant so that it feels secure!
Cheers Wendy

I will admit to maybe enlarging 'root mass index.' I don't feel
secure at 2-3". I did not realize I had increased it that much.
You are right 6 is a bit much.

As Wendy says. "The SECRET is in Staking the keiki securely."
All orchids want to be secure in the pot. We used to pack them
in so tightly that immediately after potting you could pick up
the plant and pot by the plant leaves. This is damaging to
delicate roots. Secure is better defined as not moving when set
down and no longer supported by you. So tap the pot on the side
and against the table to settle the mix in around the roots.
Even water it in gently. But do not force the potting media down
around the roots with direct pressure. If the plant is 'potted'
but not secure, use a pot clip or tie it to the hanger or stake
with in the pot.
My vote on a keiki that is on an old spike is to leave it
attached, pot the roots up and use a wire staple or pot-clip to
tie the small plant to the pot. Now find a way to support the
small pot at the height the spike carries it. This is much the
way you take layered cuttings from shrubs. After a couple of
months the keiki will be established in the pot and the shock of
removing it from the main plant will be lessened.

Is that better girls. Nothing like getting Both CA and Italy on
the same page. G
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

We just leave them alone, other than staking the spike to hold the baby(ies)
up. Very striking, when the mother plant and 2-3 keikis all bloom at once
....

Despite our high humidity, we cannot grow adult phals here, bareroot, unless
we water 2x daily in the summer, but for whatever reason, the keikis
attached to a mature potted parent do just fine on our regular watering
schedule, despite having their roots dangling in mid-air. In a
lower-humidity environment, if you find the need, stuff a little sphagnum
around and among the keiki's roots as they begin to form, tie it off with a
raffia bow and you'll still have a pretty presentation.

If you do separate it, give it the same clonal name as the mother plant's
[give the mother plant one if it doesn't already have it]. Theoretically,
it is the same as a mericlone, but a vegetative division is even truer,
since variations and mutations do sometimes occur in the cloning process, in
practice [every theory I've ever met worked better on paper than in practice
:(].

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com

"the moke monster" wrote in message
...
I have a phal orchid that has been blooming for 18 months and now it has
what appears to be a clone or new plant growing out of an old spike.
With leaves and its own roots! It is an indoor plant here in Seattle,
but I put it out in the summer.

Is this part of the same plant? A new plant? A separate clone (same
DNA)?

Can it be separated? Should it be separated? (those little roots are
hanging in mid air)

Thanks.

George

And a two cents from lovely south Florida.......

I like more than 2 or so inches as well (don't start, ladies), but I also
understood that the total inches referred to the total of all the roots.
I.e., if you had three roots at around 2 1/2 inches each you'd have a total
of 7 1/2 inches available to absorb water and nutrients.

Diana

George,

The keiki should not be removed from the plant until the roots are at least
two feet long grin!


Seriously, you can leave the keiki on the mother plant for a long time. I
have seen some beautiful specimens with the keiki and mother plant both in
bloom at the same time. Some of the smaller phal equestris hybrids make
many keikis and look great this way.

If you wait the plant will tell you when to remove the keiki when the old
stem starts to yellow. You could get some long fibred moss and loosly wrap
the roots with some moss. Use fishing line (monofiliment) to hold the moss
in place and water it occasionally. The plant would airlayer this way and
get established.

Another idea would be to bend the spike (if it's long enough...don't break
it) to suspend the keiki over a small flower pot and put some loose moss in
the pot to let the plant get established before you cut it from the mother
plant.

Remember in nature this is what happpens. The mother plant is growing on a
branch high in the tree and the keiki grows until it's roots touch the
branch. Once the keiki can survive on it's own the stem dies and the plant
in on its own. If you mimic nature you will have good results.

Good Growing,
Gene

Thanks for the info. The mom bloomed 3 spikes in two overlapping stages over the 18 months. New buds appeared on a new sub-spike before the old set dropped off, and it is finally losing the second set of blooms. One of the spent spikes immediatly grew an
other length of budds. And another grew the keiki.

here are two photos:
http://www.barkless.com/pics/dscn0413a.jpg
http://www.barkless.com/pics/dscn0409.jpg

The moms leaves look healthy but the roots look a little skanky. It is planted in bark & pumice.

I keep it abover a humidifier and under flouresent grow light in my office in the winter and put them outside in the summer. So it gets more temerature extremes in the summer. The Keiki started at the end of winter right with the second bloom.

I will plan to repot it.

George


Susan Erickson wrote:

The Keiki is a baby of Mom and when the root mass sum is 6" or
greater the plant can be separated. If you firmly (gentle now)
grasp the keiki and gently twist and pull it should snap off the
spike. I would wait as long as possible before doing this. If
your not sure, you can also bend the spike down until you can
plant the keiki in a pot of its own and allow it to grow on while
still attached. It has roots and you are leery of snapping it
off the stem, cut the spike on both sides of the keiki and pot
the new plant up.

Now that you know your alternatives, YES, this is the same DNA
and a clone of the original. So give the new little guy the same
name and tag markings as the original plant.

Phals put out keikis for various reasons. Mom is dying? Mom was
shocked by something, genetics (as in some do it often) and for
reasons we will not understand. So if the keiki is big enough
remove it and when you do, especially as Mom has been blooming
for 18 months, Repot her and check the roots. Is your big plant
looking good? Has it put out a leaf or three during this
extended bloom cycle? YOu need to put some effort into making
sure the large plant will continue to grow. If it is stressed by
bad roots, make sure the keiki is at least trying to support its
own growth with roots planted, even if it is still attached.

Yes, I lost a lovely big Phal after 18 months of constant bloom.
It had not grown a new leaf and I was not paying enough attention
to its health. I was too lost in the beauty of the flowers to
look to plant itself.
Good luck and good growing.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php