I cut three very sad-looking leaves off my phal yesterday after months
of watching it go from bad to worse. See picture of the leaves in a post
with the same subject line in alt.binaries.pictures.orchids.

Can anyone tell me what the problem is? I can't find any creepy
crawlies of any sort. The plant has just produced one brand-new, green
and shiny leaf but it didn't flower this year. Not surprising.

I've already lost one phal to a similar problem and I see the tell-tale
dark and light areas showing up on other phals.

Any help gratefully accepted.
Norma

Hi Norma, Not sure but we have had other people with this same
problem & I lost my whole collection of phals & had tried all sorts
of sprays.
If I were you, I would get some fresh pots & potting mix,
wash everything down with a bleach & water solution.
Spray or soak plants with Physan before repotting. You could
also try cinnamon on any cut leaves & be careful to use sterile
cutting tools. If its a virus it will spread by using the same
cutters etc.
Good luck.

--
Cheers Wendy

Remove PETERPAN for email reply

Nell wrote:
I cut three very sad-looking leaves off my phal yesterday after months
of watching it go from bad to worse. See picture of the leaves in a
post with the same subject line in alt.binaries.pictures.orchids.

Can anyone tell me what the problem is? I can't find any creepy
crawlies of any sort. The plant has just produced one brand-new, green
and shiny leaf but it didn't flower this year. Not surprising.

I've already lost one phal to a similar problem and I see the
tell-tale dark and light areas showing up on other phals.

Any help gratefully accepted.
Norma

It resembles what I have been fighting in my Phal collection for 2
years. When I say fighting, I really mean watching it win. I made a web
site to show the problem to people in the hopes that someone knew how to
cure it:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html
I got advice from dozens of people. Several thought they knew what it
was but didn't really. Some have the exact same problem and it seems to
be incurable. I was really hoping it was a fungus and that a fungicide
might cure it. I now have a great collection of fungicides but not a cure.
If you find that the new leaves look normal as they grow but then start
showing symptoms after the leaf reaches full size, you probably have the
same problem. One of the people who seem to have this same problem
recently gave leaves to a plant pathologist who found no fungus or
bacteria. They even looked for virus with an electron microscope and
found nothing that looked like a virus. This thing has turned out to be
quite a mystery and I hope you don't have that disease. Your pictures
lead me to believe you do.

Steve



Nell wrote:
I cut three very sad-looking leaves off my phal yesterday after months
of watching it go from bad to worse. See picture of the leaves in a post
with the same subject line in alt.binaries.pictures.orchids.

Can anyone tell me what the problem is? I can't find any creepy
crawlies of any sort. The plant has just produced one brand-new, green
and shiny leaf but it didn't flower this year. Not surprising.

I've already lost one phal to a similar problem and I see the tell-tale
dark and light areas showing up on other phals.

Any help gratefully accepted.
Norma

Judging from your pictures, it looks like my long gone Dtps. Tinny
Beauty fell to the same illness. It probably would've sent out basal
keikis, but when I bought it, the root system was in bad shape as well,
and I guess it couldn't handle things. If someone ever finds out what
it might be, I'd be most interested in knowing.

Cheers,
Xi

Steve wrote:
It resembles what I have been fighting in my Phal collection for 2
years. When I say fighting, I really mean watching it win. I made a web
site to show the problem to people in the hopes that someone knew how to
cure it:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html
I got advice from dozens of people. Several thought they knew what it
was but didn't really. Some have the exact same problem and it seems to
be incurable. I was really hoping it was a fungus and that a fungicide
might cure it. I now have a great collection of fungicides but not a cure.
If you find that the new leaves look normal as they grow but then start
showing symptoms after the leaf reaches full size, you probably have the
same problem. One of the people who seem to have this same problem
recently gave leaves to a plant pathologist who found no fungus or
bacteria. They even looked for virus with an electron microscope and
found nothing that looked like a virus. This thing has turned out to be
quite a mystery and I hope you don't have that disease. Your pictures
lead me to believe you do.

Steve



Nell wrote:

I cut three very sad-looking leaves off my phal yesterday after months
of watching it go from bad to worse. See picture of the leaves in a
post with the same subject line in alt.binaries.pictures.orchids.

Can anyone tell me what the problem is? I can't find any creepy
crawlies of any sort. The plant has just produced one brand-new, green
and shiny leaf but it didn't flower this year. Not surprising.

I've already lost one phal to a similar problem and I see the
tell-tale dark and light areas showing up on other phals.

Any help gratefully accepted.
Norma

I believe that my phals do indeed have the mystery disease.

Someone wrote to me offlist to say that he had had a similar problem
with his phals which turned out to be flat mites. He used something
called Safer (which I assume to be an insecticidal soap) and it took
care of the problem. I was excited when I read this and intended to
spray my plants tonight.

Then I went to the site Steve mentioned and which I also found via other
searching:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html

This has the most in-depth discussion of the problem that I've found
anywhere. Alas, it seems that flat mites are likely not the cause at
all. I'm thinking that I will try the soap anyway, but if it doesn't
help, I'm just going to bite the bullet and throw out my phals. (They
all have the problem). I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Steve wrote:

It resembles what I have been fighting in my Phal collection for 2
years. When I say fighting, I really mean watching it win. I made a web
site to show the problem to people in the hopes that someone knew how to
cure it:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html
..
..
..
This thing has turned out to be
quite a mystery and I hope you don't have that disease. Your pictures
lead me to believe you do.

Steve

This seems to be a very pervasive problem, one that you'd think the Ag
department would want to know about and solve. After all phals are a big
crop plant.

K Barrett

"Nell" wrote in message
.rogers.com...
I believe that my phals do indeed have the mystery disease.

Someone wrote to me offlist to say that he had had a similar problem
with his phals which turned out to be flat mites. He used something
called Safer (which I assume to be an insecticidal soap) and it took
care of the problem. I was excited when I read this and intended to
spray my plants tonight.

Then I went to the site Steve mentioned and which I also found via other
searching:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html

This has the most in-depth discussion of the problem that I've found
anywhere. Alas, it seems that flat mites are likely not the cause at
all. I'm thinking that I will try the soap anyway, but if it doesn't
help, I'm just going to bite the bullet and throw out my phals. (They
all have the problem). I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Steve wrote:

It resembles what I have been fighting in my Phal collection for 2
years. When I say fighting, I really mean watching it win. I made a web
site to show the problem to people in the hopes that someone knew how to
cure it:
http://www.geocities.com/tlswilso/Ph...s_2-15-04.html
.
.
.
This thing has turned out to be
quite a mystery and I hope you don't have that disease. Your pictures
lead me to believe you do.

Steve

Nell wrote:
.....I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease. Many of my
Oncidium alliance plants have gone down hill as well but I can't say
their problem resembles the Phal disease. The Dendrobiums and Oncidiums
are normally not in the same area as the Phals but when they are in
bloom I often place them there for a while.

Steve

PS Here's a picture, taken last year, of the Dendrobium disease:
http://stevewilson.homestead.com/fil...e5_31_03_2.jpg
That plant I've had for around 20 years. It was never a great bloomer
but until recent years, it had nearly perfect, unblemished leaves. Now
it seems that every leaf starts in with the spots as the leaf matures.

I cannot speak with expertise about the specific problem, but don't think
for a moment that the same affliction will display the same symptoms with
all plants.

Think about it - the phals have thick, fleshy leaves while dens and oncids
have thin leaves. A surface problem might easily cause the depressions you
see in the phals, but those depressions go all the way through a thin leaf.

Based upon the pictures, I'd speculate (a high-falutin' way of saying
"guess") that your growing conditions have fostered the maintenance of a
particularly nasty fungus of some sort, and any treatments you may have
applied have been insufficient at eradicating it, and if applied improperly,
may have helped develop a stronger strain. If I was facing that, I'd take
in some strong measures:

1) Move all plants out of the growing area and sterilize the crap out of
it with bleach.
2) Treat all of your plants with a good systemic fungicide, repeating the
application religiously according to label instructions.
3) Destroy the really badly infected plants.

Then, observe and study really thoroughly your cultural practices. I'd bet
that whatever-it-is came in with one plant, but too much moisture with a
lack of air movement - or something cultural like that - has really
aggravated the situation, and if that isn't remedied, you might end up right
back where you are now.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Steve" wrote in message
...


Nell wrote:
.....I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the same
time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with fungicides. It
behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease. Many of my Oncidium alliance
plants have gone down hill as well but I can't say their problem resembles
the Phal disease. The Dendrobiums and Oncidiums are normally not in the
same area as the Phals but when they are in bloom I often place them there
for a while.

Steve

PS Here's a picture, taken last year, of the Dendrobium disease:
http://stevewilson.homestead.com/fil...e5_31_03_2.jpg
That plant I've had for around 20 years. It was never a great bloomer but
until recent years, it had nearly perfect, unblemished leaves. Now it
seems that every leaf starts in with the spots as the leaf matures.

Steve wrote:

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease.

An onc. (Sharry Baby) also has spots. Not the same kind of spots that
the phals have but close. Also has not flowered this year. I'm posting
a pic of it in the binary group the minute I finish posting here.

All my orchids are in the kitchen window, northwest exposure and they
have thrived there for years until recently. We had the window replaced
last year and that's the only difference in the environment. No more
bone-chilling drafts in January (we're in Canada). Wonder if this is
what has started the problem for some reason.

N.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:40:50 GMT, Nell wrote:

Steve wrote:

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease.

An onc. (Sharry Baby) also has spots. Not the same kind of spots that
the phals have but close. Also has not flowered this year. I'm posting
a pic of it in the binary group the minute I finish posting here.

All my orchids are in the kitchen window, northwest exposure and they
have thrived there for years until recently. We had the window replaced
last year and that's the only difference in the environment. No more
bone-chilling drafts in January (we're in Canada). Wonder if this is
what has started the problem for some reason.

N.

It could be that what to you were bone-chilling drafts were just
the breezes that kept the air moving to your plants. I saw
Sharry Baby, that is not her usual black spot problem. I am with
RAY. Get some air movement in the room, get everything out of the
dead corner, make sure the calk on the new window is not
vaporizing in some harmful way. Watch your water timing. Sharry
looked too wet.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Nell wrote:
Steve wrote:

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since
before the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease.


An onc. (Sharry Baby) also has spots. Not the same kind of spots that
the phals have but close. Also has not flowered this year. I'm posting
a pic of it in the binary group the minute I finish posting here.

All my orchids are in the kitchen window, northwest exposure and they
have thrived there for years until recently. We had the window replaced
last year and that's the only difference in the environment. No more
bone-chilling drafts in January (we're in Canada). Wonder if this is
what has started the problem for some reason.

N.


I looked at your Sharry Baby picture last night but didn't have time to
respond. My problem Oncidiums don't look exactly like that, but some are
similar. I notice that the disease causes bad spots on the pseudobulbs.
Mine do the same.
Since you have the same Phal disease and probably the same Oncidium
disease, I think that may be a small bit of evidence that it's really
the same disease in both.
I wonder if anyone has that disease in an Oncidium with normal healthy
Phals growing near by?

Steve

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:40:50 GMT, Nell wrote:

Steve wrote:

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease.

An onc. (Sharry Baby) also has spots. Not the same kind of spots that
the phals have but close. Also has not flowered this year. I'm posting
a pic of it in the binary group the minute I finish posting here.

All my orchids are in the kitchen window, northwest exposure and they
have thrived there for years until recently. We had the window replaced
last year and that's the only difference in the environment. No more
bone-chilling drafts in January (we're in Canada). Wonder if this is
what has started the problem for some reason.

N.

It could be that what to you were bone-chilling drafts were just
the breezes that kept the air moving to your plants. I saw
Sharry Baby, that is not her usual black spot problem. I am with
RAY. Get some air movement in the room, get everything out of the
dead corner, make sure the calk on the new window is not
vaporizing in some harmful way. Watch your water timing. Sharry
looked too wet.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Nell wrote:
Steve wrote:

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since
before the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the
same time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with
fungicides. It behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease.


An onc. (Sharry Baby) also has spots. Not the same kind of spots that
the phals have but close. Also has not flowered this year. I'm posting
a pic of it in the binary group the minute I finish posting here.

All my orchids are in the kitchen window, northwest exposure and they
have thrived there for years until recently. We had the window replaced
last year and that's the only difference in the environment. No more
bone-chilling drafts in January (we're in Canada). Wonder if this is
what has started the problem for some reason.

N.


I looked at your Sharry Baby picture last night but didn't have time to
respond. My problem Oncidiums don't look exactly like that, but some are
similar. I notice that the disease causes bad spots on the pseudobulbs.
Mine do the same.
Since you have the same Phal disease and probably the same Oncidium
disease, I think that may be a small bit of evidence that it's really
the same disease in both.
I wonder if anyone has that disease in an Oncidium with normal healthy
Phals growing near by?

Steve

I cannot speak with expertise about the specific problem, but don't think
for a moment that the same affliction will display the same symptoms with
all plants.

Think about it - the phals have thick, fleshy leaves while dens and oncids
have thin leaves. A surface problem might easily cause the depressions you
see in the phals, but those depressions go all the way through a thin leaf.

Based upon the pictures, I'd speculate (a high-falutin' way of saying
"guess") that your growing conditions have fostered the maintenance of a
particularly nasty fungus of some sort, and any treatments you may have
applied have been insufficient at eradicating it, and if applied improperly,
may have helped develop a stronger strain. If I was facing that, I'd take
in some strong measures:

1) Move all plants out of the growing area and sterilize the crap out of
it with bleach.
2) Treat all of your plants with a good systemic fungicide, repeating the
application religiously according to label instructions.
3) Destroy the really badly infected plants.

Then, observe and study really thoroughly your cultural practices. I'd bet
that whatever-it-is came in with one plant, but too much moisture with a
lack of air movement - or something cultural like that - has really
aggravated the situation, and if that isn't remedied, you might end up right
back where you are now.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Steve" wrote in message
...


Nell wrote:
.....I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the same
time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with fungicides. It
behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease. Many of my Oncidium alliance
plants have gone down hill as well but I can't say their problem resembles
the Phal disease. The Dendrobiums and Oncidiums are normally not in the
same area as the Phals but when they are in bloom I often place them there
for a while.

Steve

PS Here's a picture, taken last year, of the Dendrobium disease:
http://stevewilson.homestead.com/fil...e5_31_03_2.jpg
That plant I've had for around 20 years. It was never a great bloomer but
until recent years, it had nearly perfect, unblemished leaves. Now it
seems that every leaf starts in with the spots as the leaf matures.

I cannot speak with expertise about the specific problem, but don't think
for a moment that the same affliction will display the same symptoms with
all plants.

Think about it - the phals have thick, fleshy leaves while dens and oncids
have thin leaves. A surface problem might easily cause the depressions you
see in the phals, but those depressions go all the way through a thin leaf.

Based upon the pictures, I'd speculate (a high-falutin' way of saying
"guess") that your growing conditions have fostered the maintenance of a
particularly nasty fungus of some sort, and any treatments you may have
applied have been insufficient at eradicating it, and if applied improperly,
may have helped develop a stronger strain. If I was facing that, I'd take
in some strong measures:

1) Move all plants out of the growing area and sterilize the crap out of
it with bleach.
2) Treat all of your plants with a good systemic fungicide, repeating the
application religiously according to label instructions.
3) Destroy the really badly infected plants.

Then, observe and study really thoroughly your cultural practices. I'd bet
that whatever-it-is came in with one plant, but too much moisture with a
lack of air movement - or something cultural like that - has really
aggravated the situation, and if that isn't remedied, you might end up right
back where you are now.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Steve" wrote in message
...


Nell wrote:
.....I'm just hoping it doesn't infect my paphs, oncs
and whatever others I have.

[sigh]
Norma

Norma, I have had Paphs growing in with the diseased Phals since before
the Phal problem started. The Paphs are healthy and doing fine.
On the other hand, my Dendrobiums developed a spot disease about the same
time the Phals started and it doesn't seem to go away with fungicides. It
behaves quite a bit like the Phal disease. Many of my Oncidium alliance
plants have gone down hill as well but I can't say their problem resembles
the Phal disease. The Dendrobiums and Oncidiums are normally not in the
same area as the Phals but when they are in bloom I often place them there
for a while.

Steve

PS Here's a picture, taken last year, of the Dendrobium disease:
http://stevewilson.homestead.com/fil...e5_31_03_2.jpg
That plant I've had for around 20 years. It was never a great bloomer but
until recent years, it had nearly perfect, unblemished leaves. Now it
seems that every leaf starts in with the spots as the leaf matures.