Do potato plants have a summer time dormancy in their genetics, for I
notice they
do well only in Spring and Fall.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On Sep 30, 4:11 pm, a_plutonium wrote:
Do potato plants have a summer time dormancy in their genetics, for I
notice they
do well only in Spring and Fall.

Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Are you observing the above ground growth as "doing well"? Maybe
during the summer months most of the photosynthesized food is going
into producing below ground biomass (making potatoes).

On Oct 2, 3:07 pm, jon wrote:
On Sep 30, 4:11 pm, a_plutonium wrote:

Do potato plants have a summer time dormancy in their genetics, for I
notice they
do well only in Spring and Fall.

Photoperiodism? Preference for cooler weather?

Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Are you observing the above ground growth as "doing well"? Maybe
during the summer months most of the photosynthesized food is going
into producing below ground biomass (making potatoes).

IIRC, potatoes are ready for harvest as soon as the plant
wilts, in early summer.

Ferd Farkel wrote:
On Oct 2, 3:07 pm, jon wrote:
On Sep 30, 4:11 pm, a_plutonium wrote:

Do potato plants have a summer time dormancy in their genetics, for I
notice they
do well only in Spring and Fall.

Photoperiodism? Preference for cooler weather?

Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Are you observing the above ground growth as "doing well"? Maybe
during the summer months most of the photosynthesized food is going
into producing below ground biomass (making potatoes).


That would carry the assumption that a plant with few leaves is
growing prolifically
below ground. It makes more commonsense that the below ground growth
occurrs
with lush above ground leaf structure.



IIRC, potatoes are ready for harvest as soon as the plant
wilts, in early summer.

Perhaps what is going on is that potatoes have two harvests per one
single year, where
they produce potatoes and then dormant and then when Autumn comes
around, that the
newly produced potatoes have their own spurt of new growth.

Something has to explain why every year my potatoes are lush in
Spring, then go almost
leafless during summer even when I water them and then spring back
into lush foliage
by Autumn.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On Oct 3, 1:34 pm, a_plutonium wrote:
Ferd Farkel wrote:
On Oct 2, 3:07 pm, jon wrote:
On Sep 30, 4:11 pm, a_plutonium wrote:

Do potato plants have a summer time dormancy in their genetics, for I
notice they
do well only in Spring and Fall.

Photoperiodism? Preference for cooler weather?

Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Are you observing the above ground growth as "doing well"? Maybe
during the summer months most of the photosynthesized food is going
into producing below ground biomass (making potatoes).

That would carry the assumption that a plant with few leaves is
growing prolifically
below ground. It makes more commonsense that the below ground growth
occurrs
with lush above ground leaf structure.

IIRC, potatoes are ready for harvest as soon as the plant
wilts, in early summer.

Perhaps what is going on is that potatoes have two harvests per one
single year, where
they produce potatoes and then dormant and then when Autumn comes
around, that the
newly produced potatoes have their own spurt of new growth.

This makes sense.

Potatoes are not roots, but tubers, offshoots of vegetative
stems, not roots. This is why they're buried in deep trenches
and hilled as they grow.

Something has to explain why every year my potatoes are lush in
Spring, then go almost
leafless during summer even when I water them and then spring back
into lush foliage
by Autumn.

Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Ferd Farkel wrote:


This makes sense.

Potatoes are not roots, but tubers, offshoots of vegetative
stems, not roots. This is why they're buried in deep trenches
and hilled as they grow.

I wonder if they have completed the genome of both the tomato and
potato. I believe
the origins of potato are South America and the origins of tomato
somewhere in Africa.
So I suspect that tomatoes were earlier in evolution then potatoes and
that some
tomato found its way to South America and with the cooler mountain
climate became
the potato.


I am not sure of the time reckoning of Continental Drift from Africa
land bridges to South
America for things such as monkeys and camel to llama. And whether
tomato to
potato. Seems as though Continental drift is hundreds of millions,
even billions of years
whereas plant and animal species is a few million years so how much
Continental
Drift plays into this.

One of the reasons I suspect this is because I noticed on some
potatoes a tomato
like growth.

A genomics of these two species should provide clues as to which came
first and whether
one is the ancestor of the other.


Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

"a_plutonium" schreef
I believe
the origins of potato are South America and the origins of tomato
somewhere in Africa.

***
An unfounded belief
* * *

A genomics of these two species should provide clues as to which came
first and whether
one is the ancestor of the other.

***
By definition, neither is the ancestor of the other.

Also, both are the product of a long process of breeding, that is artificial
selection. As opposed to evolution, based on natural selection.
PvR

P. van Rijckevorsel wrote:
"a_plutonium" schreef
I believe
the origins of potato are South America and the origins of tomato
somewhere in Africa.

***
An unfounded belief
* * *

A genomics of these two species should provide clues as to which came
first and whether
one is the ancestor of the other.

***
By definition, neither is the ancestor of the other.

Also, both are the product of a long process of breeding, that is artificial
selection. As opposed to evolution, based on natural selection.
PvR

You are wrong on this, based on the Llama and camel data. The Llama
and camel have an
ancient ancestor somewhere in Africa. And they crossed some land
bridge to South America
during the geological time of the Continental Drift of Africa away
from South America.

So when was this geological time period? I remember the Wegener thesis
amassing evidence
of genetic ancestors across Africa and South America but I do not
recall time scales of when
that took place.

Anyway, the camel and Llama have a common ancestor in Africa (or it
may be the other way
around). And that once the land bridges were broken then they evolved
their own separate ways.

So, likewise, noticing the very much similar traits and
characteristics of tomatoes and potatoes,
I reckon they both had one common ancestor, and probably originated in
Africa and probably
more like a tomato. And this tomato ancestor found its way across the
land bridge (what geological
time??) into South America. And due to the colder South American
climate in the mountains evolved
into the potato.

One year I noticed a tomato like fruit on one of my potato plants
growing above ground and looking
like a tomato. And I would not be surprized if anyone found a tomato
plant that seemed to grow tubers.

So I am suggesting that when the genome of the tomato and potato are
in and up and viewable and
up and running for analysis, that we maybe able to spot where in the
genome of the tomato were
mutations that eventually led to the species of potato. And that the
genome would tell us which
was alive first in geological time and thus eventually evolved and
created the other (I suspect the
tomato came first and created the potato.)

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

In message .com,
a_plutonium writes

P. van Rijckevorsel wrote:
"a_plutonium" schreef
I believe
the origins of potato are South America and the origins of tomato
somewhere in Africa.

***
An unfounded belief
* * *

A genomics of these two species should provide clues as to which came
first and whether
one is the ancestor of the other.

***
By definition, neither is the ancestor of the other.

Also, both are the product of a long process of breeding, that is artificial
selection. As opposed to evolution, based on natural selection.
PvR

You are wrong on this, based on the Llama and camel data. The Llama
and camel have an
ancient ancestor somewhere in Africa. And they crossed some land
bridge to South America
during the geological time of the Continental Drift of Africa away
from South America.

It turns out that it is you that are wrong. The earliest camelids are
found in North America, from which they passed to Asia over the Bering
Land Bridge, and to South America over the Panama Land Bridge.

And even if you were right about camelids your argument would still have
been invalid. There are situations where sister taxa are found in Africa
and South America whether through vicariance or dispersal over the
proto-South Atlantic. (New World Monkeys are generally believed to have
arrived in South America by rafting over the proto-South Atlantic.) You
can't draw conclusions about the biogeographic history of one taxon from
the biogeographic history of another taxon, with different dispersal
abilities, of a different age, lacking a close biotic relationship with
the first.

So when was this geological time period? I remember the Wegener thesis
amassing evidence
of genetic ancestors across Africa and South America but I do not
recall time scales of when
that took place.

You have to take account of the age of the taxa and the data of the
continental split. Both camelids and the potato-tomato subgroup of
Solanum are too young for Africa-South America vicariance to be an
explanation for their distribution.

Anyway, the camel and Llama have a common ancestor in Africa (or it
may be the other way
around). And that once the land bridges were broken then they evolved
their own separate ways.

So, likewise, noticing the very much similar traits and
characteristics of tomatoes and potatoes,
I reckon they both had one common ancestor, and probably originated in
Africa and probably
more like a tomato. And this tomato ancestor found its way across the
land bridge (what geological
time??) into South America. And due to the colder South American
climate in the mountains evolved
into the potato.

One year I noticed a tomato like fruit on one of my potato plants
growing above ground and looking
like a tomato. And I would not be surprized if anyone found a tomato
plant that seemed to grow tubers.

So I am suggesting that when the genome of the tomato and potato are
in and up and viewable and
up and running for analysis, that we maybe able to spot where in the
genome of the tomato were
mutations that eventually led to the species of potato. And that the
genome would tell us which
was alive first in geological time and thus eventually evolved and
created the other (I suspect the
tomato came first and created the potato.)

You seem to be committing the ladder fallacy. Evolution is a tree (or a
bush), not a ladder.

You can establish which traits are derived in a particular clade, and
which are ancestral, without reference to the genomes - a cladistic
analysis of morphology is sufficient. But, whether you use morphology or
genomes, you need a third species - an outgroup - before you can
identify which way the change occurred.

BTW, potatoes are a much more diverse group that tomatoes. BTW, potatoes
are not the only tuber-bearing Solanums, unless you define all
tuber-bearing Solanums to be potatoes, in which case they don't form a
clade.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies


--
alias Ernest Major

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:


It turns out that it is you that are wrong. The earliest camelids are
found in North America, from which they passed to Asia over the Bering
Land Bridge, and to South America over the Panama Land Bridge.

I am positive that I am wrong on many of the details, because noone
really
knows the full picture or a fraction of the picture involved. Mine are
not assertions
but logical hunches. As I said in earlier posts, it may be reversed
that potato
came out of South America and became an invasive species in Africa and
Asia
in a long ago past time.

But I want to use the Camel and Llama analogy for that of potato and
tomato.
I am not wrong on that picture that the Camel and Llama were
genetically created
on one continent of a distant ancestor common to both Camel and Llama
and became
migrated over to another continent and evolved separately. So I am
correct on that general
overview, it is the details I am wrong on some details.

So it if the Ancestral Camelid comes from South America and via some
landbridge transports
the Llama over into Asia and then Middle East which evolves into the
camel, well, one can
easily picture that the Ancestral Potato and Tomato came out of South
America and millions of years
ago crossed the land bridge over into Asia and then Middle East and
then Africa and evolved into
what is now known as the tomato.

So if Ancestral Llama crosses over to Asia from South America, then it
is easy to visualize
Ancestral Potato crossing over to Asia from South America and
eventually evolving into tomato.

So, noone has disproven this overall picture of mine of the Llama to
camel and potato to tomato
from South America to Asia many millions of years ago.


And even if you were right about camelids your argument would still have
been invalid. There are situations where sister taxa are found in Africa
and South America whether through vicariance or dispersal over the
proto-South Atlantic. (New World Monkeys are generally believed to have
arrived in South America by rafting over the proto-South Atlantic.) You

No, that does not disprove my picture. The picture that Potatoes are
older in time than
the tomato and that the Potato at one time was all in South America
and somehow found passage
to Asia or Africa and once there evolved into becoming the tomato.



can't draw conclusions about the biogeographic history of one taxon from
the biogeographic history of another taxon, with different dispersal
abilities, of a different age, lacking a close biotic relationship with
the first.

Your statements increasingly show that you lack logic of science.



So when was this geological time period? I remember the Wegener thesis
amassing evidence
of genetic ancestors across Africa and South America but I do not
recall time scales of when
that took place.

You have to take account of the age of the taxa and the data of the
continental split. Both camelids and the potato-tomato subgroup of
Solanum are too young for Africa-South America vicariance to be an
explanation for their distribution.

I said as much, that I doubted Continental Drift played a role in
tomato-potato
and Llama-camel since those events were only millions of years ago
whereas Continental Drift
was hundreds of millions of years ago of land bridges.

But you failed to answer my question of an example of the similar
bioflora and biofauna
between Africa and South America related to bridges in the Continental
Drift and a time
period? So are you able to give a few examples of similar flora and
fauna of South America
and Africa that were due to Continental Drift and what time this
exchange occurred?




You seem to be committing the ladder fallacy. Evolution is a tree (or a
bush), not a ladder.


I am not committing any fallacy. I am chasing up on a hunch using
Llama and
camel as a analogy. Your problem is that you hate someone and instead
of simply
saying I hate you, you dress up a reply as if you think it is
scienctific when it is nothing
more than a statement-- I hate you.



You can establish which traits are derived in a particular clade, and
which are ancestral, without reference to the genomes - a cladistic
analysis of morphology is sufficient. But, whether you use morphology or
genomes, you need a third species - an outgroup - before you can
identify which way the change occurred.

BTW, potatoes are a much more diverse group that tomatoes. BTW, potatoes
are not the only tuber-bearing Solanums, unless you define all
tuber-bearing Solanums to be potatoes, in which case they don't form a
clade.


Your last paragraph is the only worthwhile paragraph and if you were
half the scientist
you think you are, your reply would have been that last paragraph
only.

And that last paragraph supports my hunch that one of them is the
Ancestral Stock for the
other, and in this case the evidence is that potato came first and
eventually created the
tomato on another distant continent. Since potatoes are more diverse
of a group suggests, but does
not prove that potatoes are older than tomatoes.

So what is really needed is a complete genome on potato and tomato and
that would give evidence
as to many of these guesses and hunches.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

a_plutonium wrote:
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:


It turns out that it is you that are wrong. The earliest camelids are
found in North America, from which they passed to Asia over the Bering
Land Bridge, and to South America over the Panama Land Bridge.

I am positive that I am wrong on many of the details, because noone
really
knows the full picture or a fraction of the picture involved. Mine are
not assertions
but logical hunches. As I said in earlier posts, it may be reversed
that potato
came out of South America and became an invasive species in Africa and
Asia
in a long ago past time.

But I want to use the Camel and Llama analogy for that of potato and
tomato.
I am not wrong on that picture that the Camel and Llama were
genetically created
on one continent of a distant ancestor common to both Camel and Llama
and became
migrated over to another continent and evolved separately. So I am
correct on that general
overview, it is the details I am wrong on some details.

So it if the Ancestral Camelid comes from South America and via some
landbridge transports
the Llama over into Asia and then Middle East which evolves into the
camel, well, one can
easily picture that the Ancestral Potato and Tomato came out of South
America and millions of years
ago crossed the land bridge over into Asia and then Middle East and
then Africa and evolved into
what is now known as the tomato.


In fact, there is a very remote chance that the Ancestral Camelid that
came out of South
America which would evolve into the camel once in Asia and Middle
East, that this Ancestral
Camelid brought the Ancestral-Potato tuber across a land bridge and
thus spread it into
Asia.

I seriously doubt that because my Llama does not eat potatoes nor
tomatoes. But a more likely
scenario is that Ancient Humans crossed a land bridge from South
America-- Perhaps the Ocean
waters in the Ice ages created a ocean walk across. And that these
Ancient Humans took Llamas
and potatoes across to Africa. Or up to Alaska and walked across
there.

What I am suggesting is that perhaps the migration of Llama from South
America to Asia or Africa
was the same event that carried the potato across.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

In article .com,
a_plutonium wrote:

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

It turns out that it is you that are wrong. The earliest camelids are
found in North America, from which they passed to Asia over the Bering
Land Bridge, and to South America over the Panama Land Bridge.

I am positive that I am wrong on many of the details, because noone
really
knows the full picture or a fraction of the picture involved. Mine are
not assertions
but logical hunches. As I said in earlier posts, it may be reversed
that potato
came out of South America and became an invasive species in Africa and
Asia in a long ago past time.

Potatoes and tomatoes were unknown outside the Americas before they
were brought to Europe by Spanish explorers in the 16th century. They
spread from there to many other countries where they had never been
cultivated before.

Both species, and many many related ones in the genus Solanum,
originated and evolved in South and Central America.

The little tomato-like fruit you found on your potato plant is a
perfectly normal potato fruit. All Solanum spp have similar fruits,
if they haven't been warped into monstrous unnatural forms by many
generations of human cultivation, like the common tomato. If you
cut open your potato fruit, you'll find that it actually resembles
an eggplant in structure more than a tomato. Ditto, the seeds.

So if Ancestral Llama crosses over to Asia from South America, then it
is easy to visualize
Ancestral Potato crossing over to Asia from South America and
eventually evolving into tomato.

So, noone has disproven this overall picture of mine of the Llama to
camel and potato to tomato
from South America to Asia many millions of years ago.

Well, since there's no evidence of either potato or tomato outside
the Americas until recent historic times, and they are both known
to have been introduced to the Old World by ships crossing the
Atlantic, and there are numerous documented stories of how these
crops were received and adopted in European and Asian and African
countries, it's not much of an analogy, and there's nothing to
disprove.

No, that does not disprove my picture. The picture that Potatoes are
older in time than
the tomato and that the Potato at one time was all in South America
and somehow found passage
to Asia or Africa and once there evolved into becoming the tomato.

There's zero evidence to support it and massive evidence to refute it.
Most people would say that 'disproves' your 'picture'.

can't draw conclusions about the biogeographic history of one taxon from
the biogeographic history of another taxon, with different dispersal
abilities, of a different age, lacking a close biotic relationship with
the first.

Your statements increasingly show that you lack logic of science.

Um. Logic applied to false premises doesn't result in truth. Both
potatoes and tomatoes are neotropical species.

I am not committing any fallacy. I am chasing up on a hunch using
Llama and
camel as a analogy. Your problem is that you hate someone and instead
of simply
saying I hate you, you dress up a reply as if you think it is
scienctific when it is nothing
more than a statement-- I hate you.

People who exert themselves to correct your incorrect assumptions and
explain things to you are expressing an interest in helping you learn.
Is this hate?

You can establish which traits are derived in a particular clade, and
which are ancestral, without reference to the genomes - a cladistic
analysis of morphology is sufficient. But, whether you use morphology or
genomes, you need a third species - an outgroup - before you can
identify which way the change occurred.

BTW, potatoes are a much more diverse group that tomatoes. BTW, potatoes
are not the only tuber-bearing Solanums, unless you define all
tuber-bearing Solanums to be potatoes, in which case they don't form a
clade.


Your last paragraph is the only worthwhile paragraph and if you were
half the scientist
you think you are, your reply would have been that last paragraph
only.

And that last paragraph supports my hunch that one of them is the
Ancestral Stock for the
other, and in this case the evidence is that potato came first and
eventually created the
tomato on another distant continent. Since potatoes are more diverse
of a group suggests, but does
not prove that potatoes are older than tomatoes.

There's no evidence that the potato is older as a species than the
tomato. The genus Solanum, into which tomatoes have recently been
returned from Lycopersicum, includes potatoes, eggplants and literally
hundreds of other species. Indeed, it's the most speciose
genus in the plant kingdom, and is in dire need of reorganization.
AFAIK, nobody has taken up this daunting task. A good, consistent
phylogenetic tree of Solanum sensu lato would be a way cool thing to
have, and would be really useful in sorting it out.

There's no reason to think that either the potato or tomato is ancestral
to the other. Doubtless they have a common ancestor, as do the hundreds
of other species in the genus, many of which are more closely related
to one than the other, while others (notably the Africa species) are
collectively less related to both. Species generally known as potatoes
and tomatoes probably originated in the Andes mountains, since that's
where you find the largest number of closely related species.

So what is really needed is a complete genome on potato and tomato and
that would give evidence
as to many of these guesses and hunches.

Well, there has been quite a lot of genomic work done on these important
crops, and enough of it is online that you could learn quite a bit if
you actually wished to. I recall one paper online that compared potato,
tomato and eggplant genomes with peppers (Capsicum) as the outgroup.

Btw, if any of the botanists here would care to comment on what (if
anything) has been happening to reorganize Solanum, I'd appreciate if
they'd contribute, maybe under a different Subject: heading.

I don't normally reply to Mr. Plutonium's posts, but perhaps the
discussion can be turned to something more relevant here.

wrote:


There's no evidence that the potato is older as a species than the
tomato. The genus Solanum, into which tomatoes have recently been
returned from Lycopersicum, includes potatoes, eggplants and literally
hundreds of other species. Indeed, it's the most speciose
genus in the plant kingdom, and is in dire need of reorganization.
AFAIK, nobody has taken up this daunting task. A good, consistent
phylogenetic tree of Solanum sensu lato would be a way cool thing to
have, and would be really useful in sorting it out.

There's no reason to think that either the potato or tomato is ancestral
to the other. Doubtless they have a common ancestor, as do the hundreds
of other species in the genus, many of which are more closely related
to one than the other, while others (notably the Africa species) are
collectively less related to both. Species generally known as potatoes
and tomatoes probably originated in the Andes mountains, since that's
where you find the largest number of closely related species.

So what is really needed is a complete genome on potato and tomato and
that would give evidence
as to many of these guesses and hunches.

Well, there has been quite a lot of genomic work done on these important
crops, and enough of it is online that you could learn quite a bit if
you actually wished to. I recall one paper online that compared potato,
tomato and eggplant genomes with peppers (Capsicum) as the outgroup.

Btw, if any of the botanists here would care to comment on what (if
anything) has been happening to reorganize Solanum, I'd appreciate if
they'd contribute, maybe under a different Subject: heading.

I don't normally reply to Mr. Plutonium's posts, but perhaps the
discussion can be turned to something more relevant here.

I was under the impression that tomatoes were not indigenous or native
to South America, but were native to Asia or Africa. So if that is
false, then
my hunch is false.

If the two are native to South America, then, of course, it is easy to
see that
they evolved via mutations in creating the new species within South
America.
I think the nightshade weed is of the same genus Solanum. So that
perhaps
it is not a case of potato to tomato via mutations but rather that
weeds of
solanum mutated, since they are more adaptable and prolific and the
mutation
rate increased so that the potato came from weed mutation and tomato
came
from other weed mutation.

Now is the Solanum genus native and indigenous to South America also?
And was the Solanum genus spread to other continents?

What is the most prolific Solanum weed? Is it nightshade?

So a genome of potato and tomato and the most prolific weed of Solanum
may
find the genes which mutated in the
long ago past history.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Potatoes originated in Southern Chile. The exact native range of the
original, undomesticated tomato has not been precisely determined, but
it was Mexico, Central America, or western S. America. Neither is from
Africa.

Monique Reed
Biology Department
Texas A&M University

monique wrote:
Potatoes originated in Southern Chile. The exact native range of the
original, undomesticated tomato has not been precisely determined, but
it was Mexico, Central America, or western S. America. Neither is from
Africa.

Monique Reed
Biology Department
Texas A&M University

Well I wish I had known about tomatoes a week earlier. Somewhere I had
the impression they were from Asia or Africa.

Anyone tried putting a geological date on potato and tomato?

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies