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Old 18-01-2008, 04:47 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. Waited a week and bought a
goldfish. After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. Then at it's 2 week mark the goldfish
looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot. Took a
water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. The aquariaist
said that the sample had high ammonia and that it was not tailrot, would
not sell the antibiotic. The fish died that night.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.

Could not find a group where this would be on-topic, but it is related.


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Old 19-01-2008, 02:57 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry


"Stumpy" wrote in message
...
I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. Waited a week and bought a
goldfish. After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. Then at it's 2 week mark the
goldfish looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot.
Took a water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. The
aquariaist said that the sample had high ammonia and that it was not
tailrot, would not sell the antibiotic. The fish died that night.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.

Could not find a group where this would be on-topic, but it is related.

======================================
I wish I had the time to type you a small booklet on cycling and goldfish
care. You can Google "aquarium+cycling" and "goldfish+care" and get a lot
more information than you need or that anyone can type here for you in a few
minutes.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(





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Old 19-01-2008, 03:25 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

Stumpy wrote:
I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. Waited a week and bought a
goldfish. After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. Then at it's 2 week mark the goldfish
looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot. Took a
water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. The aquariaist
said that the sample had high ammonia and that it was not tailrot, would
not sell the antibiotic. The fish died that night.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.

Could not find a group where this would be on-topic, but it is related.


Your tank won't continue cycling if there is nothing in there to produce
waste. You could possibly continue cycling the tank without fish using a
procedure known as "fishless cycling" - this is where you add small
amounts of ammonia to the tank and continue testing as if there are fish
in there - once you reach zero nitrites and ammonia your tank will be
cycled - never tried it myself but there are a lot of people who swear
by this technique as it doesn't involve any stress to fish.

A good place to ask any of your questions is:-

http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...m?lnk=li&hl=en

HTH

Gill

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Old 19-01-2008, 03:31 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:47:26 CST, "Stumpy"
wrote:

Let me say right up front that you are welcome and on topic here when
talking about fish and fish health. Most of us have fish and ponds of
different sizes and different filtering systems and we sometimes have
different ideas about keeping fish, so hang around, we are mostly
friendly.

I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. Waited a week and bought a
goldfish.


I use city water treated with chlorine, not chloramines, and I used to
fill my aquarium 10 gal with city water put in a chlorine remover and
replace fish immediately. I could set aside 10 gallons of city water
and leave it sit at room temperature overnight and use it without
chlorine remover without ill effects to goldfish.

After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. Then at it's 2 week mark the goldfish
looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot. Took a
water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. The aquariaist
said that the sample had high ammonia and that it was not tailrot, would
not sell the antibiotic. The fish died that night.

Let's assume the clerk was right and let me say, I'm sorry you lost
your fish. To prevent this happening in the future, may I suggest
you get your own aquarium test kit. A good one can be purchased where
I am for between $20 and $30. It includes pH, GH and Ammonia tests.
Mine also includes Nitrite and Nitrate tests, but I've never received
a positive with either of these in my pond, so I tend to ignore them.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.

I think it is difficult to answer your question without knowing the
tank. Mine was an under gravel filter (Some time ago.) and needed
frequent cleaning compared to some of today's aquarium filtering
systems. I had to learn to change water more frequently than most
aquarist do these days and still am not in favor of such long waiting
periods without fish.

My opinion is to clean the tank and filters remove anything that
removes ammonia. (These items, once saturated release ammonia back
into the water.) Use a chlorine remover adjust the temperature and
replace fish immediately. Use my test kit weekly or daily when
problems occur, and rely on water changes to help me regulate the
balance of the water. (I would use chlorine remover in the new water
if I changed more than 20% of the water.) I would also suggest
goldfish feeders,(cheap) until you feel more comfortable with managing
the water. I trust others here will offer their thoughts.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

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Old 20-01-2008, 08:33 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:57:17 CST, "Reel McKoi" wrote:

I wish I had the time to type you a small booklet on cycling and goldfish
care. You can Google "aquarium+cycling" and "goldfish+care" and get a lot
more information than you need or that anyone can type here for you in a few
minutes.


I've been struggling with how to comment to this. I think it was good
advice to point out Google and what terms to use, but perhaps if one
doesn't have the time, it would be better not to dismiss the OP by saying
so? Also the assumption "that anyone can type here for you" is pretty big.
At various times many of us have LOTS of time, especially during these
winter months. ;-)

To the OP, please come back when you get going again. There are far simpler
solutions to cycling a tank and sick fish, especially goldfish, that we can
help you with. Hal mentioned buying your own test kits. And I would
recommend having salt, baking soda and ammonia binder on hand. Also, when
purchasing an ammonia test kit, get the salicylate test kind. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us



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Old 21-01-2008, 01:06 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
I've been struggling with how to comment to this. I think it was good
advice to point out Google and what terms to use, but perhaps if one
doesn't have the time, it would be better not to dismiss the OP by saying
so? Also the assumption "that anyone can type here for you" is pretty big.
At various times many of us have LOTS of time, especially during these
winter months. ;-)

To the OP, please come back when you get going again. There are far
simpler
solutions to cycling a tank and sick fish, especially goldfish, that we
can
help you with. Hal mentioned buying your own test kits. And I would
recommend having salt, baking soda and ammonia binder on hand. Also, when
purchasing an ammonia test kit, get the salicylate test kind. ~ jan

====================
Sorry about that. I wasn't thinking. It was a bit off topic for the group
and a newbie needs sooooooo much information.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 21-01-2008, 08:44 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Jan 18, 11:47*am, "Stumpy" wrote:
I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. *Waited a week and bought a
goldfish. *After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. *Then at it's 2 week mark the goldfish
looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot. *Took a
water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. *The aquariaist
said that the sample had high ammonia and that *it was not tailrot, would
not sell the antibiotic. *The fish died that night.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? *My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.

Could not find a group where this would be on-topic, but it is related.


You have a small aquarium with no fish and ammonia in the water. In
regards to your question, yes, the nitrifying bacteria which will take
the tank through its cycle will continue to develop if there is no
fish in the aquarium. These bacteria establish themselves in the
filter's sponge, so don't damage them by hard washing or replacement.
There are some other things to be aware of, but as was already
mentioned here, it's a big subject.

This still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, such as, is my
aquarium big enough or even suitable for ... and what type of
goldfish (fancy typically require warmer water, comets do better in
longer tanks etc etc). There are Goldfish FAQ if your heart is set on
a Goldfish.
http://fish.turquoisewave.com/index....26&Itemi d=37

And there is aquarium-specific advice available at the Freshwater
Aquarium
http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...quarium/topics
which can include many types of fish which may or may not be more
applicable to your setup.

ps: to rpm, sorry to pinch a poster, I was just wandering by and
thought I could help ;~)
cheers
NetMax

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Old 21-01-2008, 11:53 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:44:30 CST, NetMax wrote:

And there is aquarium-specific advice available at the Freshwater
Aquarium
http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...quarium/topics
which can include many types of fish which may or may not be more
applicable to your setup.

ps: to rpm, sorry to pinch a poster, I was just wandering by and
thought I could help ;~) cheers NetMax


As long as the OP gets help, who cares where? ;-) Just be sure and send any
ponders over to us. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 22-01-2008, 12:59 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry



You have a small aquarium with no fish and ammonia in the water. In
regards to your question, yes, the nitrifying bacteria which will take
the tank through its cycle will continue to develop if there is no
fish in the aquarium. These bacteria establish themselves in the
filter's sponge, so don't damage them by hard washing or replacement.
There are some other things to be aware of, but as was already
mentioned here, it's a big subject.


This is good news. I'll assume that if I wait the ~40 days I saw on the
graph, then is a good time to try again.


This still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, such as, is my
aquarium big enough or even suitable for ... and what type of
goldfish (fancy typically require warmer water, comets do better in
longer tanks etc etc). There are Goldfish FAQ if your heart is set on
a Goldfish.
http://fish.turquoisewave.com/index....26&Itemi d=37

And there is aquarium-specific advice available at the Freshwater
Aquarium
http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...quarium/topics
which can include many types of fish which may or may not be more
applicable to your setup.

ps: to rpm, sorry to pinch a poster, I was just wandering by and
thought I could help ;~)
cheers
NetMax


Thanks for the links. I'll explore Google groups. The goldfish was my
wife's idea - it doesn't have to be perfect. Just want to avoid future
health problems and trauma/drama in the toilet bowl.

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Old 22-01-2008, 12:59 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry


Your tank won't continue cycling if there is nothing in there to produce
waste. You could possibly continue cycling the tank without fish using a
procedure known as "fishless cycling" - this is where you add small
amounts of ammonia to the tank and continue testing as if there are fish
in there - once you reach zero nitrites and ammonia your tank will be
cycled - never tried it myself but there are a lot of people who swear by
this technique as it doesn't involve any stress to fish.

A good place to ask any of your questions is:-

http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...m?lnk=li&hl=en

HTH

Gill


Thanks much. Don't want to add more chemicals if I don't have to. The only
ammonia I have is 10% ammonium hydroxide "janitorial strength" that I use to
clean out plugged ink-jet printer heads.

I'll follow up on your link, but have never used Google groups.



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Old 22-01-2008, 02:23 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:44:30 CST, NetMax
wrote:

ps: to rpm, sorry to pinch a poster, I was just wandering by and
thought I could help ;~)


Positive input is always welcome.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

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Old 23-01-2008, 02:01 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Jan 19, 10:25*am, Gill Passman
wrote:
Stumpy wrote:
I set up a small aquarium and used de-chlor. *Waited a week and bought a
goldfish. *After one week it had Ich, used malachite green and raised tank
temperature to 80 deg., it recovered. *Then at it's 2 week mark the goldfish
looked ill and had its tail corroding - I assumed with tailrot. *Took a
water sample to a petstore and wanted to buy an anti-biotic. *The aquariaist
said that the sample had high ammonia and that *it was not tailrot, would
not sell the antibiotic. *The fish died that night.


http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html


My question is - with no fish in the tank to continue producing nitrogen,
will the cycle shown in the graph on the link above continue as depicted?
Or will the cycle be interrupted until I install a new fish to produce new
nitrogen? *My preference would be to leave the tank alone until day 40 and
then feel much better about putting in a new fish.


Could not find a group where this would be on-topic, but it is related.


Your tank won't continue cycling if there is nothing in there to produce
waste. You could possibly continue cycling the tank without fish using a
procedure known as "fishless cycling" - this is where you add small
amounts of ammonia to the tank and continue testing as if there are fish
in there - once you reach zero nitrites and ammonia your tank will be
cycled - never tried it myself but there are a lot of people who swear
by this technique as it doesn't involve any stress to fish.

A good place to ask any of your questions is:-

http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...m?lnk=li&hl=en

HTH

Gill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hi Gill, the most recent articles on fishless cycling describe it
exactly as you're saying; replenishing the ammonia periodically
(daily). I think this does result in a larger bacterial culture, but
note that there is also a school of thought that levels of ammonia
which are too high can inhibit the bacteria which complete the process
taking the nitrite to nitrate (ref: never-ending cycle).

The original method which was the only one I've had personal
experience with, was using a single dose of ammonia to about 5ppm
(though the concentration doesn't seem to be very critical) and then
waiting for the process to complete itself. There is some concern
that in the resulting interval where there is no ammonia (only
nitrite), that some bacteria might die off, which is why the more
refined method described above was developed (I think by the same
fellow who documented the first method on the net).

Ultimately, both systems work, though I lean towards the simpler 2nd
method when trying to coach someone over the internet who may not have
the same inclination towards daily water testing.

cheers
NetMax

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Old 23-01-2008, 11:31 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry


Hi Gill, the most recent articles on fishless cycling describe it
exactly as you're saying; replenishing the ammonia periodically
(daily). I think this does result in a larger bacterial culture, but
note that there is also a school of thought that levels of ammonia
which are too high can inhibit the bacteria which complete the process
taking the nitrite to nitrate (ref: never-ending cycle).

The original method which was the only one I've had personal
experience with, was using a single dose of ammonia to about 5ppm
(though the concentration doesn't seem to be very critical) and then
waiting for the process to complete itself. There is some concern
that in the resulting interval where there is no ammonia (only
nitrite), that some bacteria might die off, which is why the more
refined method described above was developed (I think by the same
fellow who documented the first method on the net).

Ultimately, both systems work, though I lean towards the simpler 2nd
method when trying to coach someone over the internet who may not have
the same inclination towards daily water testing.

cheers
NetMax


If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would I
add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?

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Old 23-01-2008, 11:33 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

Hi U2..

NetMax wrote:
On Jan 19, 10:25*am, Gill Passman
wrote:


@ Gill:

Your tank won't continue cycling if there is nothing in there to produce
waste.


ACK..

You could possibly continue cycling the tank without fish using a
procedure known as "fishless cycling" - this is where you add small
amounts of ammonia to the tank and continue testing as if there are fish
in there - once you reach zero nitrites and ammonia your tank will be
cycled


Yes and no..! Fishless cycling is (of course!) fishless cycling but it's not
automatically a cycling with ammonia..

- never tried it myself but there are a lot of people who swear
by this technique as it doesn't involve any stress to fish.


Yes and no..

A good place to ask any of your questions is:-
http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...m?lnk=li&hl=en


ACK..

@ NM:

Hi Gill, the most recent articles on fishless cycling describe it
exactly as you're saying; replenishing the ammonia periodically
(daily). I think this does result in a larger bacterial culture,


Well this kind of method might support bacterial cultures that prefer
_anorganic_ N ressources while denitrifying bacteria generally seem to
prefer organic waste..

but
note that there is also a school of thought that levels of ammonia
which are too high can inhibit the bacteria which complete the process
taking the nitrite to nitrate (ref: never-ending cycle).


Hmm.., don't think so - any links available..?

--
cu
Marco

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Old 24-01-2008, 03:39 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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"Stumpy" wrote in message
...
If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would I
add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?

================
Hi Stumpy, if you aquarium is only 5 gallons it is much too small for a
goldfish. A small healthy well fed young goldfish will outgrow it in well
under a year. You would be much better off with a betta or a few small
tetras. Healthy GF can reach a foot in length.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(



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