Thanks to everybody who took the time to respond to my initial thread.

What I take from it is that Koi keeping is a possibility in my pond,
but it's not real ideal because of the depth (too shallow) and the
technical setup (no bottom drain, no surface skimmer, security grid).

In view of that I think I'd better "cut my teeth" with a simple
goldfish setup, learn more about the hobby and eventually once I've
mastered the basics (and the kids have grown a bit) revive the Koi
idea.

So what I've got at the moment is

1 x pond (50 cm depth, bare liner)
1 x multi-chamber filter
1 x UV light
1 x pump

I don't want to get any extra equipment at least for a while to keep
costs down.

First question: Substrate or no Substrate?

Second question: if substrate is a good idea, can I use largish
pebbles or should I go for a fine substrate?

Thanks again for your insights.

Frank

Definitely no substrate. It just collects debris and creates a bad
zone at the bottom of your pond.

When you say "goldfish," you're talking about Comets or Shubunkins,
right? I only ask because anything fancier will need to be brought in
for the winter. And definitely, don't just toss pet-store "feeder"
goldfish in there.

Your next question should be "how many fish?" : ) Beyond the "so
many inches per gallon" approach, my advice is to back off that
slightly and leave some room for the future generations. Goldfish are
like rabbits... at least mine are.

I'm not quite sure how spawning will work with your grate... My fish
push right up against the shore when mating--getting into 1/2" of
water or less. I guess yours will adapt to the grate, but you may find
some getting injured against it.

Dave

On Wed, 7 May 2008 08:30:56 EDT, wrote:

First question: Substrate or no Substrate?

No substrate. It will soon be covered in algae and crud.

Goldfish, look at wakins, shubunkins & sarassas, rather than just the
common comet. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Goldfish, look at wakins, shubunkins & sarassas, rather than just the
common comet. ~ jan

I hadn't heard of wakins before. Those look pretty interesting; very
different from the others.

- Dave

I had goldfish in my plastic pond for a few years, They did fine.
I bought them when they were .10 each, they grew to about 5 inches.
GF are pretty simple to keep, just remember to feed them.

On Wed, 7 May 2008 19:15:55 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

And definitely, don't just toss pet-store "feeder"
goldfish in there.

After a few years with shubunkin, I prefer comets, and whether they
call them feeders or certified blue blood, I never got pedigree papers
with any purchase of mine and believe the comets were sold as feeders,
because the breeder had too many fish. I've heard stories about their
poor handling and bad condition, but of the 20 I bought this year from
Walmart @$.29ea, I lost one, so I still have 19 of the prolific
breeding, gold colored little beauties that work just fine in my
ponds.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Ok,

No substrate then.. pity because you can see the bottom of the pond
quite well because it is so shallow. I presume in a couple of months
time the liner will have pretty much disappeared and have be replaced
by algae and brown mud?

Goldfish.. yes, I can't really work up much enthusiasm for them at the
moment. My (now) wife brought a tank and three goldfish home one day
(far too small tank, no decent filter, 2 causalities within the first
3 days). That was about 15 years ago, but was what started me on the
aquarium hobby..

Unfortunately, I'm not a big fan of the terribly overbred varieties
that can hardly swim properly and are prone to eye infections, etc,
etc.. so for me it can only really be the hardier, single tailed
varieties.

I haven't looked much into goldfish since we got our first tetras..
our house was planned with my 1000L discus nature aquarium project in
mind, but now that we have become parents that suddenly looks like a
bad idea; at least for a few years.. that's what got me a bit worked
up about the whole pond thing :-)

I just can't help thinking that going from Discus back to Goldfish is
step backwards.. I know they can be great fish too, but they are a bit
"garden variety" and remind me of the poor sickness-ridden fish in our
local chinese restaurant. Koi would have been a much more respectable
hobby.. It does not help that Wikipedia refers to Shubunkins as "poor
man's koi" :-)

Still I'm basically a pond newbie and should cut my teeth first.. so
it's single tailed goldfish: "common" or "comet"..

Shubunkin is a fancy term for "calico" I suppose? certainly sounds
better.

Wakin are double tailed and, if I remember correctly, will thus be
eaten for breakfast by the single tailed varieties. Right?

Sarassas: are these basically all white or white and red comets?

I can't remember whether you can mix "comet" breeds and "common"
goldfish safely?

So basically my only real choices would be to go with:

1) orange "comet" (plain old comet)
2) white "comet" (Sarassa)
3) white & orange "comet" (Sarassa)
4) red, white, grey and black speckled "comets" (Shubunkins)

... and that’s that.

Are there any other compatible cold water fish?

...and what about housing koi with goldfish.. I suspect that the
goldfish will soon have disappeared? So once I get my courage up and
have a go at Koi keeping I should get rid of the goldfish first?

Sorry about the persistent interrogation.. I really do appreciate all
the expert advice I'm getting here and will try to post pictures once
the first fish arrive..

Thanks again for your help.

Frank

I'm curious why you're so excited about koi, but so down on goldfish.
Given the amount of work that's going to be involved in keeping a
pond, you may want to forego the fish altogether if you're not really
into it.

I personally think that Sarasas are great to watch, especially when
they're upwards of a foot long. The tails are just incredible.

My comments about feeder goldfish were mainly regarding the poor
handling and disease that can come with those.

You shouldn't have normally have eye problems with pond goldfish
(they're not the "bubble-eyed" variety), and all of mine "swim right"
so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you picturing aquarium-
sized goldfish in a pond? Because, that's not what it's like at all.
They can grow 15" long. Granted, not as large as Koi, but that just
means you room for more of them.

If you're so down on goldfish, though, just start with a few koi and
see what happens. It sounds like that's ultimately what you want in
there anyway, so why bother with anything else?

The grid over your pond does easily come off for cleaning, injured/
dead fish removal, debris removal, etc. right? I'm still trying to
imagine a metal grid that size. It sounds really heavy. You'll
definitely be needing to get access to the pond water, especially
without a skimmer.

Dave

On Fri, 9 May 2008 00:40:53 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

If you're so down on goldfish, though, just start with a few koi and
see what happens. It sounds like that's ultimately what you want in
there anyway, so why bother with anything else?

Sounds like good advice!

The grid over your pond does easily come off for cleaning, injured/
dead fish removal, debris removal, etc. right? I'm still trying to
imagine a metal grid that size. It sounds really heavy. You'll
definitely be needing to get access to the pond water, especially
without a skimmer.

Sounds like a learning experience in the making and I wish him well.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

I'm curious why you're so excited about koi, but so down on goldfish.
Given the amount of work that's going to be involved in keeping a
pond, you may want to forego the fish altogether if you're not really
into it.

I'm just being silly really..

I personally think that Sarasas are great to watch, especially when
they're upwards of a foot long. The tails are just incredible.

I'm (hopefully) going to the gardening center today to have a proper
look at the little guys, so perhaps the excitement will come then..

You shouldn't have normally have eye problems with pond goldfish
(they're not the "bubble-eyed" variety), and all of mine "swim right"
so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you picturing aquarium-
sized goldfish in a pond? Because, that's not what it's like at all.
They can grow 15" long. Granted, not as large as Koi, but that just
means you room for more of them.

I was thinking of the lion head and bubble eye varieties;
unfortunately I've seen too many chinese restaurants that have a bunch
of "disabled" fan tails that can't control their swim bladders
properly floating half dead in an algae encrusted "aquarium". I
remember seeing one poor specimen floating upside down fighting its
own buoyancy to get to the food at the bottom. Put me right off my
chow mein and "fancy" goldfish.

Mind you the goldfish that I've come across have all been small and
mostly sick.. seeing a properly kept 15" specimen would probably
change my mind in a flash.

If you're so down on goldfish, though, just start with a few koi and
see what happens. It sounds like that's ultimately what you want in
there anyway, so why bother with anything else?

Well, I'm a bit scared that I'll make many a mistake with the pond in
my first year.. winter.. water changes.. etc.. I don't really feel
confident to go against the advice of at least some of the people in
this group about the minimum depth and equipment level required.. I
don't want to have a koi massacre on my conscience :-)

The grid over your pond does easily come off for cleaning, injured/
dead fish removal, debris removal, etc. right? I'm still trying to
imagine a metal grid that size. It sounds really heavy. You'll
definitely be needing to get access to the pond water, especially
without a skimmer.

As I said I haven't seen said item yet, so that is another potential
problem.. I've had a very positive experience with the landscaper
gardner (http://www.verda.lu/) so far and have just let him get on
with things, but he is by no means a pond specialist and the idea of
keeping fish has been very much an afterthought for me. Now it's a bit
late in the day to change very much.

I'm just going to wait until he's finished, assess the situation and
see whether I can remedy any problems that might exist. The idea of a
skimmer (at first I thought "protein skimmer", but I now know better)
sounds good, but I'm wondering how well this works with a grid and
potentially some free floating plants like duckweed..

It's all big adventure at the moment :-)

Great questions.

You can run koi and goldies together. They will even interbreed.
That is a bit rough on female goldies!

Jim

wrote:



I'm just being silly really..

If it helps any, I've been in much the same situation with my pond and
reluctantly accepted that it just really isn't big enough for Koi. I
know I could get some small ones and then trade them on later but I
prefer to think of my fish as pets for life. I don't keep goldfish in
any of my indoor tanks anymore so in some ways I have found the decision
to keep goldfish in my pond a bit of a come down, (I keep reef, south
american biotope, malawi biotope and one happy big muddle of fish from
all areas), but overall I am very happy with the decision. I became the
proud owner of 6 small Shubunkins last weekend and they are really
pretty....more Shubunkins to come over the next few weeks as I slowly
stock the pond....


I'm (hopefully) going to the gardening center today to have a proper
look at the little guys, so perhaps the excitement will come then..

I spent months checking out the fish at my local LFS - although still
tempted to ask for Koi at the last minute I resisted. There is nothing
not exciting about goldfish and other non-koi....I guess it is because
the perception is that the Koi is the King of the Pond Fish...and the
Shubunkin imo is very attractive.


Well, I'm a bit scared that I'll make many a mistake with the pond in
my first year.. winter.. water changes.. etc.. I don't really feel
confident to go against the advice of at least some of the people in
this group about the minimum depth and equipment level required.. I
don't want to have a koi massacre on my conscience :-)

Me too....another reason I settled for the Shubunkins.....the thought of
a pond without fish is something that does not compute with my brain.

Gill

On Thu, 8 May 2008 17:18:30 EDT, wrote:

No substrate then.. pity because you can see the bottom of the pond
quite well because it is so shallow. I presume in a couple of months
time the liner will have pretty much disappeared and have be replaced
by algae and brown mud?

More like a couple of weeks and it won't be algae or mud, but mulm/water
dust.

I think I read that you have a UV, and I assume the pump will be in the
pond? So what you're going to see at first, especially without plants in
the pond to compete against it, is string algae. It is just gonna love that
grid. In a couple of months I suspect you won't see past it, let alone be
worrying about the liner. ;-)))

Goldfish.. yes, I can't really work up much enthusiasm

No kidding? ;-)

hobby.. It does not help that Wikipedia refers to Shubunkins as "poor
man's koi" :-)

Isn't Wikipedia a site that anyone can edit? Seems someone should fix that
one.

Wakin are double tailed and, if I remember correctly, will thus be
eaten for breakfast by the single tailed varieties. Right?

Are you talking about the fry? Not any more likely than single tailed fry.
My wakins are pretty darn fast.

Sarassas: are these basically all white or white and red comets?

Red & white.

I can't remember whether you can mix "comet" breeds and "common"
goldfish safely?

Yes, the only goldfish that probably shouldn't be in a pond with other
varieties are probably the celestial eyed ones.

I personally have wakins and telescope fantails together as my personal
favorites. The one thing that is nice about fantails is they're easy to
catch if you need to remove them. I have a feeling the wakins won't be, so
I hope I won't have a reason to catch them. As far as mixing koi &
goldfish, people do, I prefer to keep them separate so I know the fry are
pure (if I get fry). ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

wrote in message
...
Ok,

No substrate then.. pity because you can see the bottom of the pond
quite well because it is so shallow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If it's that shallow wont it overheat in the sun and freeze solid in winter?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Hi,

I've been offline for the long weekend, but I've been busy.. I'm now
the proud owner of:

1x Shubunkin
1x Sarassa
0x grid

1x almost empty pond :-)

Both fish are busy hiding away under the stepping stones, but are
otherwise quite happy.

Thanks to Gill for sharing his experiences. Thanks to Jan for
encouraging me to become a string algae keeper ;-)

So Wakins and most other double finned goldfish should be ok as long
as I stay away from the "bubble" eyes. Surely Oranda are not good idea
though?

The garden center I went to only had "common" goldfish, comets,
shubunkins, sarassas and of course lots and lots of koi.. but no
double tailed varieties. I'll keep looking and get some advice if I
find something appropriate.

In the end, a goldfish-only pond might not be such a bad idea. After
years of caring for "problem" fish such as African rift-lake cichilds
and Discus, it might be quite relaxing to just look at a few dozen
healthy, trouble-free fish without worrying too much about falling PH,
nitrate levels, etc..

Thanks again for everybody's help.

Best regards,

Frank