Thanks, Nedra! A lot of people maintain - correctly- that a certain amount
of salt is necessary in the water to help the fish keep osmotic balances. I
have checked my water, and other's water around here, and asked folks in
other parts of the country to check theirs, and find that there is a normal
"background" level of salt naturally occuring in your water at the rate of
..02 to .05 That's all that's needed to maintain osmotic pressures, and
below the "danger point" for most meds, including formalin-based ones.

An individual sick fish that may benefit from salt should be put in a Q/H
tank and treated there. You have much better control of the water quantity
and temperature (but you really have to watch the "quality", because the
smaller body of water is harder to maintain!). And if the salt doesn't do
the trick, the smaller quantity of water can be readily changed to
accommodate other treatments. However, I feel that if multiple fish are
exhibiting symptoms, then I think the whole pond should be treated (the
better safe than sorry approach).

Lee


"Nedra" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
Lee ... Thanks a million for your understanding the matter!!
I saved your analysis and will not jump in with Salt as a
treatment ever again!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the
fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous
side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that
were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants
die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond.
Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the
salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do,
and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was
waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's
not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to
a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH
better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some
of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are
the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

Theo, no one should ever JUMP at using meds (hmm, Frisky over there doesn't
want to eat tonight - something's wrong . . . I'll get the meds!). But when
you *know* that something isn't right, then you have to do something. From
my reading, you're in a bit of a bind over there (across the Big Pond)
because the Europeans have regulations against using a lot of the meds that
we have access to on THIS side of the pond. But then again, you have access
to stuff that our USDA won't allow into the country!

You're quite correct: reaching for that bottle *should* be a difficult
decision to make - you should know in your heart that it's needed.

Lee

"Theo van Daele" wrote in message
...
Lee, Gregory,

Can I ask you to please stay on your soapbox for a while ?

Fascinating reading. Subjective feeling perhaps, as I've "medicated" my
pond for the first time in 5 years, but still...

The feelings of " I *have* to do this" versus "I'm probably making things
worse for the next years, if I didn't kill them right now" were very
uncomfortable to say the least.

Theo

PS: your point about knowing exactly how much water is in the pond should
be
printed on everything they sell you pond-related ! Even on the fish
:clown:

"Lee Brouillet" schreef in bericht
...
Now ain't that a bag of bones???

In article ,
"Lee Brouillet" wrote:

Theo, no one should ever JUMP at using meds (hmm, Frisky over there doesn't
want to eat tonight - something's wrong . . . I'll get the meds!).


Or throw food at a suspected problem....

jay
Thu, May 15, 2003



But when
you *know* that something isn't right, then you have to do something. From
my reading, you're in a bit of a bind over there (across the Big Pond)
because the Europeans have regulations against using a lot of the meds that
we have access to on THIS side of the pond. But then again, you have access
to stuff that our USDA won't allow into the country!

You're quite correct: reaching for that bottle *should* be a difficult
decision to make - you should know in your heart that it's needed.

Lee

"Theo van Daele" wrote in message
...
Lee, Gregory,

Can I ask you to please stay on your soapbox for a while ?

Fascinating reading. Subjective feeling perhaps, as I've "medicated" my
pond for the first time in 5 years, but still...

The feelings of " I *have* to do this" versus "I'm probably making things
worse for the next years, if I didn't kill them right now" were very
uncomfortable to say the least.

Theo

PS: your point about knowing exactly how much water is in the pond should
be
printed on everything they sell you pond-related ! Even on the fish
:clown:

"Lee Brouillet" schreef in bericht
...
Now ain't that a bag of bones???





--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

I am too ... learning alot from the dialogue between Lee and
Greg. We need more such! Thanks guys ...

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
...
Thank you for your response to Greg. I really enjoy intelligent and
informative dialogue like the two of you are having! I'm learning a lot.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the
fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous
side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that
were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants
die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond.
Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the
salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do,
and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was
waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's
not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to
a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH
better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some
of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are
the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

Yup.

Didn't want to mention the "across the pond" thing, but when we visit our
local (humans) doctor, they have more flyers warning against antibiotics
than about incontinency...

It's kind of a big issue over here, there seems to have been quite some
abuse/overuse. Superbugs anyone ?

And yes, in my heart I knew it was needed. Don't mind one of them flashing,
or 2, or occasionally all of them, but when you see your fav examples
scratching like mad 10 times a minute, and then stay low for 2 hours,
looking very sorry, you know it's time to move. So ParaMed it was (safe
for all pond critters, no need to shut down filters, do unplug UV (which I
don't have), when in doubt dose for half the pond, etc etc...)

Water turned blue and I thought "**** (sorry), I killed them !"

Hope I'll never have to use it again

But it *did* help this year.

It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

Theo

"Lee Brouillet" schreef in bericht
...
Theo, no one should ever JUMP at using meds (hmm, Frisky over there
doesn't
want to eat tonight - something's wrong . . . I'll get the meds!). But
when
you *know* that something isn't right, then you have to do something. From
my reading, you're in a bit of a bind over there (across the Big Pond)
because the Europeans have regulations against using a lot of the meds
that
we have access to on THIS side of the pond. But then again, you have
access
to stuff that our USDA won't allow into the country!

You're quite correct: reaching for that bottle *should* be a difficult
decision to make - you should know in your heart that it's needed.

Lee

yer xcused

Theo van Daele wrote:
Yup.

Didn't want to mention the "across the pond" thing, but when we visit our
local (humans) doctor, they have more flyers warning against antibiotics
than about incontinency...

It's kind of a big issue over here, there seems to have been quite some
abuse/overuse. Superbugs anyone ?

And yes, in my heart I knew it was needed. Don't mind one of them flashing,
or 2, or occasionally all of them, but when you see your fav examples
scratching like mad 10 times a minute, and then stay low for 2 hours,
looking very sorry, you know it's time to move. So ParaMed it was (safe
for all pond critters, no need to shut down filters, do unplug UV (which I
don't have), when in doubt dose for half the pond, etc etc...)

Water turned blue and I thought "**** (sorry), I killed them !"

Hope I'll never have to use it again

But it *did* help this year.

It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

Theo

"Lee Brouillet" schreef in bericht
...

Theo, no one should ever JUMP at using meds (hmm, Frisky over there

doesn't

want to eat tonight - something's wrong . . . I'll get the meds!). But

when

you *know* that something isn't right, then you have to do something. From
my reading, you're in a bit of a bind over there (across the Big Pond)
because the Europeans have regulations against using a lot of the meds

that

we have access to on THIS side of the pond. But then again, you have

access

to stuff that our USDA won't allow into the country!

You're quite correct: reaching for that bottle *should* be a difficult
decision to make - you should know in your heart that it's needed.

Lee





--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Theo van Daele wrote:
Yup.

Didn't want to mention the "across the pond" thing, but when we visit our
local (humans) doctor, they have more flyers warning against antibiotics
than about incontinency...


It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

Theo



your excused


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

UPDATE: Well, 6 days later the fish aren't flashing. I'm afraid it is
more to do with water temp than being cured. The water is about 55
now. Last week it was in the lower 60s. All are alive. It is warming
up here so that should help the Koi. I tested the water yesterday and
all looks good.

To compound things, now I have a leak. Found a large branch in my
small pond after a storm. I can't find the leak. Used the milk test
with no luck. The leak is in the top 2 inches of the liner. After
about 24 hours, it drains down about 2 inches. Put drops of milk near
the edge to watch for it to go to leak, but didn't see anything.

wrote in message ...
check the pH of the water, check for ammonia and nitrites. the major reason for
flashing after a good rain storm is problems with water quality. rain is almost
always acidic.

what is the temp of the pond water? in spring when water temp is 50-65 the parasites
are coming online. bring salt level only up to 0.1% or 0.9lbs per 100 gallons. feed
antibiotic food like romet B and treat once with a formalin/formaldehyde pond
treatment (like desafin). the idea is to knock the parasite load down, to ward off
aeromonas with antibiotics and the salt stimulates the slime coat to help deal with
parasites.

How is aeration in the pond?

one other thing. bird crap is really bad in the pond. and lots of other critters
also bring in disease. not to mention ... new fish. do not put new fish right into
the pond.

watch the fish very carefully, pick one and look for bruises, red patches, lost
scales, etc. dots or whatever...
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/p...htm#diagnostic techniques
has a list of behaviors for GF... they apply to koi as well. Ingrid


(MC) wrote:
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

absolutely!!! it isnt all that impossible either. if you have snow, then a double
tenting is needed, the upper one well slanted for holding snow, the lower one just
above the water line to keep the heat in. the ground is 55oF in most places so just
have to bring it up to 60o. but the big AND is there needs to be good aeration and a
filter going all winter ... and you need to be able to get inside to try to feed them
and check water quality. Ingrid

"Theo van Daele" wrote:
It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

Hey Doc...

The webpage that got me thinking was:

http://www.koicarp.net/electrical_heating/heating.html

And yes, the feeding/aeration had me thinking too (it's nice to do in
spring/summer, but will I be up for it in inches of snow?)

They also recommend (logical):

http://www.koicarp.net/electrical_he...r_blanket.html

But I'm not sure I want that in my garden. It looks (scuze me) quite crap.

Undecided now (not money related), but I can see why it could be beneficial.

I have 5 months to reach a decision, oh well ;-)

Am I right in thinking that unless you can keep overall temps 10°C at
least, it's a waste of time ?

OTOH, just not sure if I can stand seeing them "wake up/suffer from bugs"
next spring ...

Not an easy one.

Theo

schreef in bericht
...
absolutely!!! it isnt all that impossible either. if you have snow, then
a double
tenting is needed, the upper one well slanted for holding snow, the lower
one just
above the water line to keep the heat in. the ground is 55oF in most
places so just
have to bring it up to 60o. but the big AND is there needs to be good
aeration and a
filter going all winter ... and you need to be able to get inside to try
to feed them
and check water quality. Ingrid

"Theo van Daele" wrote:
It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in
winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

Theo,

I heat my ponds with electric immersion heaters. See the frame for my cover
at http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondpage3.html. I cover the lean-to
frame with 3 layers of plastic sheeting, use Velcro to hold the door closed
with the three door openings opening in different directions to prevent
large amounts of heat loss. I feed 12 months a year, but only 2 times a day
while the covers are on. The koi immune system is somewhat impaired below
about 60 F (15C) and the bad bacteria are very active down to 50 F (10C) if
you do not heat to at least the 15C you will be parking the fish in what is
known as aeromonas alley. Without a cover structure, the heat loss is so
great that you could not find enough heaters to keep the pond warm. A
friend heated with propane heat without a cover and he said that he had to
stop heating because it cost him $2000 per month.

Another approach, that doesn't cost as much, is to turn heat on (with
covers) until the outside temperature falls low enough that you know the
pond will stay below 10C, then gradually decrease the temperature until it
is maintained without heat. In the spring as soon as the pond hits 10C the
first time turn on the heat and get the temperature above 15C as quickly as
possible, and hold above 15C until you are sure the pond would not need heat
to maintain itself above 15C. What this does is keep the immune system high
until you are ready to put them to bed for the winter, and then wake them up
in the spring without having them hovering in that zone where the bacteria
are busy, but the immune system is not.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Theo van Daele" wrote in message
...
Hey Doc...

The webpage that got me thinking was:

http://www.koicarp.net/electrical_heating/heating.html

And yes, the feeding/aeration had me thinking too (it's nice to do in
spring/summer, but will I be up for it in inches of snow?)

They also recommend (logical):

http://www.koicarp.net/electrical_he...r_blanket.html

But I'm not sure I want that in my garden. It looks (scuze me) quite
crap.

Undecided now (not money related), but I can see why it could be
beneficial.

I have 5 months to reach a decision, oh well ;-)

Am I right in thinking that unless you can keep overall temps 10°C at
least, it's a waste of time ?

OTOH, just not sure if I can stand seeing them "wake up/suffer from bugs"
next spring ...

Not an easy one.

Theo

schreef in bericht
...
absolutely!!! it isnt all that impossible either. if you have snow,
then
a double
tenting is needed, the upper one well slanted for holding snow, the
lower
one just
above the water line to keep the heat in. the ground is 55oF in most
places so just
have to bring it up to 60o. but the big AND is there needs to be good
aeration and a
filter going all winter ... and you need to be able to get inside to try
to feed them
and check water quality. Ingrid

"Theo van Daele" wrote:
It's one of my big reasons why I wonder about heating the pond in
winter...
so they won't lose their immunity system for 4 months...

What this does is keep the immune system high
until you are ready to put them to bed for the winter, and then wake them
up
in the spring without having them hovering in that zone where the bacteria
are busy, but the immune system is not.

Thanks Rich, that sounds like a worthwhile alternative !

Minimize the time spent between 10°C and 15°C, I like it.

Theo

I agree about keeping the temp up as long as possible into winter and then warming it
up sooner in spring.. that is what my plastic tenting over my pond does. for zone 5
it significantly shortens the time my koi are without their immune system and living
"off their hump". Since I netted my pond to keep birds out of the water completely
this spring my koi are in incredible shape. I wont actually take the plastic off
until the water hits 70 (its 61 right now). I open the hatch and feed em for now.
Ingrid