I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

Take one of your fish to a local Koi store to have them check for you.

Did you check your water parameters? It may not be parasites? I was told
Koi will also jump and flash when the water parameters are off.

Easier and cheaper to do water change and deal with water quality problems
than with ick, fluke, etc.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

In addition to water quality I would go ahead and add salt
to 0.2%....First test your pond without the salt to see how much
is there. I wouldn't even try to catch my koi... it would
stress them too much... then hauling them to the vet.. nope
wouldn't even attempt that. For those that are comfortable
in doing the catching and hauling it's a fine idea. Just wouldn't
work for me.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
...
Take one of your fish to a local Koi store to have them check for you.

Did you check your water parameters? It may not be parasites? I was told
Koi will also jump and flash when the water parameters are off.

Easier and cheaper to do water change and deal with water quality
problems
than with ick, fluke, etc.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

There is a nearly "silver bullet" for unknown infestations consisting of a
combination of Prazi (Praziquantel) and ProForm C. Between the two, they
will kill flukes, intestinal worms, Costia, Ich, Trichodina, Chilodonella,
Oodinium and fungal infections *without* killing your filter. The only thing
this magic duo won't kill are arugulus (fish lice) and anchor worms, both of
which can be seen with the naked eye, but require other treatment.

If you want more info, go to http://tinyurl.com/bk8i
and follow the various links. If you don't have a 'scope or don't know how
to use it, this treatment will cover all your bases.

Good luck!

Lee

"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

first - check the water quality parameters: pH, kH, Ammonia, nitrites,
dissolved oxygen. Correct any issues identified by their results.

second - check your local pond club (hopefully you know where your closes
club is located.. if not drop me a note, and I can direct you), for folks
willing to come out and help pondside. Specifically, there are Koi Health
Advisors, specially trained individuals (trained by the national group -
Associated Koi Clubs of America), who have the equipment and requisite
knowledge to make the diagnoses you may need to have made, especially if all
your water quality tests check out. They are trained for both Koi and
Goldfish. They do not charge for their services, only for any supplies used.

third - knowledgeable aquatic/nursery staff are another option. 2 of our
local nurseries have taken wetlabs with Doc Johnson, and are good in the
diagnosis department.

fourth - contact you local vet, and see if they are comfortable dealing with
aquatic pets. If not, they will most likely refer you to someone who is, but
expect to spend some $$ if you involve them.

Let us know how you make out!

Happy ponding,
Greg


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

I forgot to mention- all water teests look okay. I did do a salting.
As I understand it, salt will not kill many parasites, but will help
the Koi's immune system. Since I have a lot of plants in there, I
just did a .2% salting.

"Gregory Young" wrote in message et...
first - check the water quality parameters: pH, kH, Ammonia, nitrites,
dissolved oxygen. Correct any issues identified by their results.

second - check your local pond club (hopefully you know where your closes
club is located.. if not drop me a note, and I can direct you), for folks
willing to come out and help pondside. Specifically, there are Koi Health
Advisors, specially trained individuals (trained by the national group -
Associated Koi Clubs of America), who have the equipment and requisite
knowledge to make the diagnoses you may need to have made, especially if all
your water quality tests check out. They are trained for both Koi and
Goldfish. They do not charge for their services, only for any supplies used.

third - knowledgeable aquatic/nursery staff are another option. 2 of our
local nurseries have taken wetlabs with Doc Johnson, and are good in the
diagnosis department.

fourth - contact you local vet, and see if they are comfortable dealing with
aquatic pets. If not, they will most likely refer you to someone who is, but
expect to spend some $$ if you involve them.

Let us know how you make out!

Happy ponding,
Greg


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I forgot to mention- all water teests look okay. I did do a salting.
As I understand it, salt will not kill many parasites, but will help
the Koi's immune system. Since I have a lot of plants in there, I
just did a .2% salting.

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
et...
first - check the water quality parameters: pH, kH, Ammonia, nitrites,
dissolved oxygen. Correct any issues identified by their results.

second - check your local pond club (hopefully you know where your
closes
club is located.. if not drop me a note, and I can direct you), for
folks
willing to come out and help pondside. Specifically, there are Koi
Health
Advisors, specially trained individuals (trained by the national group -
Associated Koi Clubs of America), who have the equipment and requisite
knowledge to make the diagnoses you may need to have made, especially if
all
your water quality tests check out. They are trained for both Koi and
Goldfish. They do not charge for their services, only for any supplies
used.

third - knowledgeable aquatic/nursery staff are another option. 2 of our
local nurseries have taken wetlabs with Doc Johnson, and are good in the
diagnosis department.

fourth - contact you local vet, and see if they are comfortable dealing
with
aquatic pets. If not, they will most likely refer you to someone who is,
but
expect to spend some $$ if you involve them.

Let us know how you make out!

Happy ponding,
Greg


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the fish is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond. Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do, and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

Lee ... Thanks a million for your understanding the matter!!
I saved your analysis and will not jump in with Salt as a
treatment ever again!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond. Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do, and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

Hi Lee:
I don't disagree with you. Although it may not seem like it, I do realize we
all have to be practical, and use what we have available to us. I know not
many ponders have scopes/are trained to use them.
My point was there are many clubs out there, and even nurseries/aquarium
stores, with very experienced folks who can help out with the diagnostic end
of things, many of whom won't charge a penny for their help...
I also agree meds are improving, but use of antibiotics still carry risks,
not only the development of resistance, but sensitivity on the part of folks
using them. (I have seen people with allergic reactions to antibiotics that
have never have taken them, but had contact with them only when they
administered them to others.. the last one happened to be a vet with a major
reaction to the quinalones (floxin/cipro, etc). she was using to treat
animals.)
I don't disagree they should be used when there is an indication, but it is
always a risk vs. benefit decision.
BUT:
You've just given me an idea of a project we can all take on.. to encourage
our local pond nursery/aquarium store experts to purchase a scope (which
they should have when dealing in fish anyway), and help folks who are
willing to bring their fish in with simple diagnostics.
It doesn't take much skill to learn to do scrapings, and view them, while
looking at a color chart of the common parasites..
Maybe we could ALL take a minute and mention that next time we are visiting
our favorite local fish business??
There is no question that gravel covering plant soil, etc can harbor
parasites. So why treat only the fish, and not the pond?
My thought on that is that you will always find unwelcome organisms of all
types in an outside pond, even after PP or other "sterilizing" treatments..
they invariably return.. you can never totally eliminate them..
Fish have a natural resistance to them, or they would continuously be
infected, by something or the other.
I have found over the years that 98% of the problem with disease in an
established pond, is either due a change in water quality that wasn't picked
up, or introduction of new plants/fish without proper quarantine.
As far as "shotgun medicine", I could go on and on about medical
professionals who routinely do that to their human patients.. that's a
battle I may not see resolved during my career, but I do see things starting
to improve.
I also understand (all too well) the frustration of trying to save a living
organism, when it is obviously diseased and getting worse, and there doesn't
seem to be a way to stop the process. Trust me on that.
Later,
Greg


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond. Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do, and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

Thank you for your response to Greg. I really enjoy intelligent and
informative dialogue like the two of you are having! I'm learning a lot.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond. Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do, and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

There is another option. Remove the fish for a salt dip, and then return to
the pond! This may not cure pond infestation though.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Nedra" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
Lee ... Thanks a million for your understanding the matter!!
I saved your analysis and will not jump in with Salt as a
treatment ever again!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the
fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous
side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that
were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants
die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond.
Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the
salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do,
and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was
waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's
not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to
a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH
better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some
of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are
the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg

check the pH of the water, check for ammonia and nitrites. the major reason for
flashing after a good rain storm is problems with water quality. rain is almost
always acidic.

what is the temp of the pond water? in spring when water temp is 50-65 the parasites
are coming online. bring salt level only up to 0.1% or 0.9lbs per 100 gallons. feed
antibiotic food like romet B and treat once with a formalin/formaldehyde pond
treatment (like desafin). the idea is to knock the parasite load down, to ward off
aeromonas with antibiotics and the salt stimulates the slime coat to help deal with
parasites.

How is aeration in the pond?

one other thing. bird crap is really bad in the pond. and lots of other critters
also bring in disease. not to mention ... new fish. do not put new fish right into
the pond.

watch the fish very carefully, pick one and look for bruises, red patches, lost
scales, etc. dots or whatever...
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/p...htm#diagnostic techniques
has a list of behaviors for GF... they apply to koi as well. Ingrid


(MC) wrote:
I know this is a sign of parasites. How do you treat? I read sites
that tell you you need ot do a gill scrape, look at it under a
microscope to determine the type, etc before treating. Let's get real,
I don't have a microscope and can't visibly see anything on the fish.
What should I do?

Now ain't that a bag of bones??? I've been trying to get two of my local
pond supply places to do just that (get a scope). One of them sent a rep to
AFKAPS for the wet lab, but wouldn't buy a scope (too expensive). The other
says it's out of the question, not what they do. But yet another local shop
sent all but one of their employees to the lab so that everyone would have
an idea what to do.

A pond, by its very nature, is crawling with weird beasties. If you *could*
sterilize a pond, the fish would die. (See what happens when you put a fish
in distilled water for a while.) The idea is to keep the resident life forms
in balance; that's a nice idea we all strive for, but sometimes get knocked
outta whack. Let a bird stop by to splash in a pondlet and leave a
"deposit"; all the hopping, leaping, slithering or otherwise ambulatory
creatures that stop by for a visit bring their own brand of cooties with
them. Things can get out of hand rapidly. Products like KoiZyme (formerly
LymnoZyme) introduce bio-engineered bacteria that compete for the same food
that the aeromonas bacteria want, only the engineered bugs do it better.
Then they die in 3 days (ah, the wonders of engineering!), but not before
starving out the "bad" bacteria, reducing the numbers to levels where they
are ineffective (Voila! The ulcer causing bacteria are now kept in check!)
The bacteria in BZT is another bio-engineered critter that's been designed
to eat the sludge at the bottom of the pond, helping to keep it cleaner. Ah,
better living through chemistry! Better ponding (sometimes!), too.

I don't advocate indiscriminate use of antibiotics, either (Johnny has a
cold, GIVE him something!) I have a fear of developing "super bugs" (against
which we have no defense), because the general use of antibiotics killed off
the weakest of the strain, leaving only the strongest behind. I don't even
use the antibacterial soaps and cleaners at home (unless indicated, like
before/after handling the fish or when someone's sick). But most of the true
antibiotics used for sick fish are injectable, and the majority of ponders
won't be doing that. On the other hand, chemicals/medications are available
.. . .

Before anyone puts a fish in the pond, they should have a reasonable grasp
of how to maintain the water: take care of the water, and the water will
take care of your fish. After that, the two things I "preach" the most
about: a) KNOW how much water you *actually* have, and that L x W x D x 7.5
is NOT gonna cut it. That only works if you have a "shoe box": straight
sides, flat bottom, no shelves, no lumps, bumps or curves. You can't
*possibly* medicate your pond if you don't know how much water is there. You
need to know this *before* you need to medicate, while your pond is happy,
because the easiest way to do it is with salt (and you want that OUT before
you have to medicate). And b) get auxilliary air into your water somehow:
airstones, venturi, something! especially in the summer when the water is
warm. There is no such thing as "too much" oxygen, but too little is fatal.
Besides, the fish like to play in the bubbles!

I'll step down from my soapbox, now.

Lee


"Gregory Young" wrote in message
news
Hi Lee:
I don't disagree with you. Although it may not seem like it, I do realize
we
all have to be practical, and use what we have available to us. I know not
many ponders have scopes/are trained to use them.
My point was there are many clubs out there, and even nurseries/aquarium
stores, with very experienced folks who can help out with the diagnostic
end
of things, many of whom won't charge a penny for their help...
I also agree meds are improving, but use of antibiotics still carry risks,
not only the development of resistance, but sensitivity on the part of
folks
using them. (I have seen people with allergic reactions to antibiotics
that
have never have taken them, but had contact with them only when they
administered them to others.. the last one happened to be a vet with a
major
reaction to the quinalones (floxin/cipro, etc). she was using to treat
animals.)
I don't disagree they should be used when there is an indication, but it
is
always a risk vs. benefit decision.
BUT:
You've just given me an idea of a project we can all take on.. to
encourage
our local pond nursery/aquarium store experts to purchase a scope (which
they should have when dealing in fish anyway), and help folks who are
willing to bring their fish in with simple diagnostics.
It doesn't take much skill to learn to do scrapings, and view them, while
looking at a color chart of the common parasites..
Maybe we could ALL take a minute and mention that next time we are
visiting
our favorite local fish business??
There is no question that gravel covering plant soil, etc can harbor
parasites. So why treat only the fish, and not the pond?
My thought on that is that you will always find unwelcome organisms of all
types in an outside pond, even after PP or other "sterilizing"
treatments..
they invariably return.. you can never totally eliminate them..
Fish have a natural resistance to them, or they would continuously be
infected, by something or the other.
I have found over the years that 98% of the problem with disease in an
established pond, is either due a change in water quality that wasn't
picked
up, or introduction of new plants/fish without proper quarantine.
As far as "shotgun medicine", I could go on and on about medical
professionals who routinely do that to their human patients.. that's a
battle I may not see resolved during my career, but I do see things
starting
to improve.
I also understand (all too well) the frustration of trying to save a
living
organism, when it is obviously diseased and getting worse, and there
doesn't
seem to be a way to stop the process. Trust me on that.
Later,
Greg

Lee, Gregory,

Can I ask you to please stay on your soapbox for a while ?

Fascinating reading. Subjective feeling perhaps, as I've "medicated" my
pond for the first time in 5 years, but still...

The feelings of " I *have* to do this" versus "I'm probably making things
worse for the next years, if I didn't kill them right now" were very
uncomfortable to say the least.

Theo

PS: your point about knowing exactly how much water is in the pond should be
printed on everything they sell you pond-related ! Even on the fish :clown:

"Lee Brouillet" schreef in bericht
...
Now ain't that a bag of bones???