In article ,
wrote:

I am in zone 5. I put a "greenhouse" over my koi pond so the water stays
warmer
longer in fall and warms up faster in spring. it is still a long haul for my
fish
over winter with no food and no immune system. I run a bucket filter to keep
water
circulating, water open and clean up some of the crud. the water is 40oF,
there is
no biobug activity. the only thing that may be growing at those temps is
algae.
as my pond warm up in spring my koi are at risk because the cooties are
waking up
before the immune system. they are hungry. I feed them so they have the
nutrients
needed for energy and to build their immune system as it comes online at
temps above
55oF. But when I start feeding them the biobugs are not up and running even
in the
bucket filter.

Nitrobacter, converts ammonia to nitrites, is about 50% efficient at
57F.

The nitrosomonas bacteria, converts nitrite to nitrates, is dormant
until just over 60F.

But again, spring is the most dangerous time for koi, especially for
dreaded aeromonas, which is active at above 45F... but at it worst when
going through the 60s... just when most ponds go green.

My koi don't get high protein food until above 60F.

jay
Fri, May 30, 2003






there is a transient ammonia spike that lasts a few days and
then the
algae kicks in and takes out the wastes. in fact, the biobugs dont do really
well
until the temp is around 65-70 or so. but the plants are growing already ..
as is the
algae. I move them from the inside where they are growing into the veggie
filter,
then I turn on the pump to the veggie filter and move the filter material
from the
bucket to the veggie filter. Ingrid

Go Fig wrote:
In spring I'm slow to feed and I always have someplace that has cultured
bacteria on it; sand filter, lava rock, fluid bed and that can easily
handle NH4 and NO2. In fact, they do a better job than plants...
especially for NH4.

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Ajames54,

If you would have done a little research you would have found out also that
the material BZT was originally developed to reduce the sludge at sewage
plants. The developers just found an extra lucrative market in Pond people.

Plus you would have found all the rest of the information that you required
and asked here for, including the breakdown of the bacteria sets.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------------
"ajames54" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 May 2003 03:15:05 GMT, "Nedra"
wrote:

You all are soo nice to folks especially to 'ajames' who
kept coming back for more information when Bonnie E.
Zookeeper, Just me Koi, etc posted such informative
stuff on BZT. I just came unglued when
he kept asking the same questions over again.
If I hurt anyone's feelings, I am sorry.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

Gee how does making one comment and a follow up equate to coming
back again and again...

Sorry I questioned your religion.. though I would suggest you get
some perspective.

If those are the bacteria that actually do the conversion. I thought so too until
two things happened
1. some research was published saying nitrosomonas and nitrobacter were not the
bacteria that convert in water and,
2. a product was marketed called Biospira which is not nitrobacter and nitrosomonas
and when added to a tank actually cycles the tank in 4-5 days instead of the typical
month it takes naturally. I have tried other products including purified
nitrosomonas and nitrobacter and they have not appreciably decreased cycle time.
Ingrid

Go Fig wrote:
Nitrobacter, converts ammonia to nitrites, is about 50% efficient at
57F.
The nitrosomonas bacteria, converts nitrite to nitrates, is dormant
until just over 60F.

wrote:
If those are the bacteria that actually do the conversion. I thought so too until
two things happened
1. some research was published saying nitrosomonas and nitrobacter were not the
bacteria that convert in water and,
2. a product was marketed called Biospira which is not nitrobacter and nitrosomonas
and when added to a tank actually cycles the tank in 4-5 days instead of the typical
month it takes naturally. I have tried other products including purified
nitrosomonas and nitrobacter and they have not appreciably decreased cycle time.
Ingrid

Go Fig wrote:

Nitrobacter, converts ammonia to nitrites, is about 50% efficient at
57F.
The nitrosomonas bacteria, converts nitrite to nitrates, is dormant
until just over 60F.



--

more information please



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

I agree John.

Ingrid, care to expand ? I always feel we are just at the beginning with
all this stuff, and you often seem to make sense ;-) so...

Intrigued sp?

Theo

more information please

John and Theo,

All it amounts to is that through DNA sequencing it has been determined that
nitrobacter are not the nitrite and ammonia converters as once they were
thought to be in the aquarium and pond nitrogen cycle. Which is probably
why putting dirt in the filter as Ingrid used to suggest never really
worked. Nitrobacter still works in the soil, just not in freshwater.

DNA sequencing helped find out that nitrospira are the bacteria doing the
work in the filter of the nitrogen cycling. The two animals that have been
found doing this work are Nitrospira marina and Nitrospira moscoviensis and
have since been given their own phylum of bacteria--the Nitrospira.

So since these are the guys that seem to be doing all the work when they are
added to an aquarium or pond to establish themselves it happens very
quickly. Usually my cycling takes about 7 to 10 days and two weeks is the
longest that I have had to wait, so with the cycling using of Biospira
taking only 4 days I think that I will keep my money in my pocket and go the
extra three days and cycle my ponds and aquariums the way I always have in
the past. Of course, for individuals that always seem to have problems
establishing the cycle in the environment this will probably be the way to
go.

HTH

Tom L.L.


"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


wrote:
If those are the bacteria that actually do the conversion. I thought so
too until
two things happened
1. some research was published saying nitrosomonas and nitrobacter were
not the
bacteria that convert in water and,
2. a product was marketed called Biospira which is not nitrobacter and
nitrosomonas
and when added to a tank actually cycles the tank in 4-5 days instead of
the typical
month it takes naturally. I have tried other products including
purified
nitrosomonas and nitrobacter and they have not appreciably decreased
cycle time.
Ingrid

Go Fig wrote:

Nitrobacter, converts ammonia to nitrites, is about 50% efficient at
57F.
The nitrosomonas bacteria, converts nitrite to nitrates, is dormant
until just over 60F.



--

more information please



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Tom La Bron wrote:
John and Theo,

All it amounts to is that through DNA sequencing it has been determined that
nitrobacter are not the nitrite and ammonia converters as once they were
thought to be in the aquarium and pond nitrogen cycle. Which is probably
why putting dirt in the filter as Ingrid used to suggest never really
worked. Nitrobacter still works in the soil, just not in freshwater.

DNA sequencing helped find out that nitrospira are the bacteria doing the
work in the filter of the nitrogen cycling. The two animals that have been
found doing this work are Nitrospira marina and Nitrospira moscoviensis and
have since been given their own phylum of bacteria--the Nitrospira.

So since these are the guys that seem to be doing all the work when they are
added to an aquarium or pond to establish themselves it happens very
quickly. Usually my cycling takes about 7 to 10 days and two weeks is the
longest that I have had to wait, so with the cycling using of Biospira
taking only 4 days I think that I will keep my money in my pocket and go the
extra three days and cycle my ponds and aquariums the way I always have in
the past. Of course, for individuals that always seem to have problems
establishing the cycle in the environment this will probably be the way to
go.

HTH

Tom L.L.


thanks Tom apreciate your answers

guess I will just keep on doing what I have been as it is workin for
me (the old dont fix it if it aint broke thing) guess I must have a
prety good colony of Nitrospira going now
is there any info on temprature and their activity?
or a link to info


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Thanks Tom,

I'm wondering what I'm throwing into the filter to kickstart it now though
.... might probably just as well throw in old shoes or something.

Off to my friend Derek Google to find some information on nitrospira :-)

John, found a first link he

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...ce/default.asp

Theo

And a very good related discussion on this NG where... you participated LOL
:-)

http://groups.google.be/groups?hl=nl...eadm=200106030
93649.02670.00001305%40nso-ft.aol.com&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fas_q%3Dnitrospir
a%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26as_ugroup%3Drec.ponds%26lr%3D%26hl%3Dnl

You'll probably have to cut & paste the long URL.

Theo van Daele wrote:
John, found a first link he

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...ce/default.asp

Theo




-- thanks Theo





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Over on rec.yaddayadda goldfish we been trying out this new stuff. well they been
trying it out and I encouraged them to measure every kinda parameter and then publish
it to the list. somebody else took parameters in cycling tank cause he couldnt get
the biospira in San Fran at the time (fish stores have to buy their refrigerators to
keep it at the right temp before selling) and he published his results on the web
somewhere... took a month. anyway, this was the first person to take measurements
and is typical. Frankly, I was VERY sceptical. Now this stuff is expensive, so
probably for tanks only. Ingrid

"I put Bio Spira in the tank on Friday with two fancy goldfish.
Tank 50 gal
Temp 75-76
Ph 8.2
Kh 14
Gh 30 (is this really high? Don't have my notes, maybe it's the other way
around)
Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates all zero. Readings taken Friday before and after
adding Bio Spira. Then Saturday, and Sunday. I have noticed an ever so
slight cloudiness to the water on Saturday night and it continues.
I feed Pro Gold twice a day. Just a very little bit in the morning. Also
feed frozen brine shrimp a few times a week and very occasionally frozen
defrosted peas, although since I started on Progold they have no float
problems
I will add an airstone tonight, per Ingrid's suggestion...then let you know
what the tonight's readings are tomorrow....
Do you think I will just one day show NitrAtes and not ammonia or nitrites
with this stuff?
Julie in Hondo"

this is her results I summarized.
FRIDAY
50 gallon tank, (2) 3 inch fish (without fins)
Temp 75-76, Ph 8.2, Kh 14, Gh 30
Pro Gold twice a day
Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates all zero.
.... added Bio Spira results as per instructions
SATURDAY
slight cloudiness
SUNDAY
slight cloudiness
MONDAY
?? any tests here?
TUESDAY
slight nitrates
WEDNESDAY
water crystal clear!
Ammonia = 0
NitrIte = 0
NitrAte = 5!!!!!!!!!

Ta very much Lee :-)

http://tinyurl.com/d92u it is then !

Clever idea actually... hmmm... (I'm in IT ;-) )

Theo

Theo, go to a website called "tinyurl.com": it will make those ponderous
links into small, manageable one-liners! It's my favorite new "help" on
the
'net!

Theo, go to a website called "tinyurl.com": it will make those ponderous
links into small, manageable one-liners! It's my favorite new "help" on the
'net!

Lee

"Theo van Daele" wrote in message
...
And a very good related discussion on this NG where... you participated
LOL
:-)


http://groups.google.be/groups?hl=nl...eadm=200106030

93649.02670.00001305%40nso-ft.aol.com&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fas_q%3Dnitrospir
a%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26as_ugroup%3Drec.ponds%26lr%3D%26hl%3Dnl

You'll probably have to cut & paste the long URL.

Wow, I really got that wrong, either I thought her pond was smaller or I
didn't catch her info that her pond was (4,500 gallons) the first time
around. So you're right, she would barely make it thru a season, depending
on where she is, with 8 oz. ~ jan

On Thu, 29 May 2003 18:06:46 GMT, "Nedra" wrote:

8 oz sure didn't last me a season. Had to re-order last fall.
My pond is supposed to be 3,000 gallons. Never did do
the salt thingy .... to find out for sure how much big it really is.
Nedra

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
.. .
8 oz would last you the season with probably a bit left over. ~ jan


Szpond wrote:
I got the phone number for ordering the BZT off an earlier post, but I
never
did see any posts that tell us what BZT does? I know the ponder
special is an
8 oz. size, but I haven't called for the price yet, seeing how much
their other
stuff is, I'm sure it is pricey. Please tell us exactly what BZT does
for the
pond, and how long 8 ozs. will last (4,500 gallon pond). And yes, I
still have
the floating algae problem. Thanks, Cathy

I love the stuff and think it is the reason my pond is a
delight instead of another big chore.
From the fact sheet you receive when you buy the product:
Eliminates Odors, Reduce Bottom Solids, Eliminates Pond
Scum, Stops Aeration equipment fouling, Improves water
clarity and quality, cost less than a fraction of a penny
per gallon of water treated.


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website




See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website