"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


Little Scooby wrote:
"Hank Pagel" wrote in message
. ..


when wind gets 10 mph it starts drifting the water colums on my TT's to
where most of the water falls to the side so thats about 18 -24 inches
here we get 20-30 mph winds quite often those push the taller column
(the 2ft one) 10-12 ft to the side

mind you I am out in the open no buildings around at all in a city i
think it wouldnt happen too often


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com



Thanks. That gives me something to start with. What a difference an extra 15
MPH wind gust makes!
And that's only a 2 foot column? I'm hoping for 3 to 5 foot lighter foam
jets. Hmm. Hope that high wind sensor shutoff unit has a quick response
time.

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

Thanks for the info. I can't wait to start experimenting. I live in a rural
area with high winds so a unit similar to the one above will be a necessity
for this to work.

-Little Scooby

If the response time of a unit similar to this one is quick enough, wind
will not be a problem for this project:

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html



"Hank Pagel" wrote in message
...
Sounds interesting ..................... but ................. the
first wind that comes along will empty your 100 gallon pond in
seconds. You will find that the higher you go the more effect wind or
even algae growing on the nozzle will have on where the water comes
down. Trying to keep it in a pond that small will be the problem, also
how much of that hundred gallons will be displaced by your pumps or be
in the air at the same time. Even small globe fountains can empty a
small pond in the wind.(voice of experience with the globe)
Good luck, but I think it is back to the drawing board for this
one.
"Little Scooby" wrote in message
om...
I am a pond newbie trying to create my first super pond. It is a
very
small pond using a preformed liner (Jamaica)
http://www.maccourt.com/lp7818.html.

I know, I know. It's teensy (100 gallon pond) but I will probably
quadruple the size in about 2 years or so if things go as planned.

The main purpose of this super mini-pond is to try to create a work
of
art using water effects. I already have a 55 gallon fish aquarium
(stocked with black mollies - balloon and lyretail) in the house, so
this super pond project will not have any fish in it. Once again, it
will be a pond designed for water effects only (and of course the
tranquil sound effects that come with it).

I don't know how many users in this forum have fountain effects on
their ponds but I'm looking at foam jet fountains (similar to this
one:


http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/m...duct_Code=Sky&
Category_Code=NOZ&Product_Count=0

Actually, that was a joke. That one would be cost prohibitive of
course (plus it's a geyser, not a foam jet).

Here is the real one I want (or one similar):


http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/m...duct_Code=CalF
K9&Category_Code=PFN&Product_Count=18

I think they are kinda neat (they kinda look like freshly opened
champagne bottles spraying up a few feet or so).

Anyway, most of the foam jet fountains I have read about on the
internet top out at about 30 inches in height or so using over 1000
gph pumps.

Has anyone successfully made these fountains higher? I've seen some
really professional ones that cost over $200 each but I'm not
looking
to spend that much per fountain. My goal is to try to squeeze 3 foam
jet fountains in this tiny 5x4 foot pond (18 inches deep in the
center, 9 or 10 inches around the sides). I was thinking of maybe
having each fountain at a different height (or just have all 3 at
the
same height like you sometimes see at Banks, Parks, etc.). I would
use
a separate pump for each fountain.

I don't even know if it will be possible or not. Is there a certain
depth required to use these foam jets at certain heights? I don't
know
how hard the water comes down from them. Could it wreck the bottom
of
the preformed liner?

Also. If a 1000 GPH @ 1 foot pump could get to 30 inches on one of
these fountains, about how high would a 3000 or 4000 pump get? I'm
looking to set some sort of record here because I'm guessing most
pond
enthusiasts aren't as interested in water effects as I am but I
thought I'd ask anyway.

Any answers you might have will be most appreciated. Thanks.

One last one. Are there any side effects to having too much
circulation? If I ran 3 4000 GPH pumps in a tiny 100 gallon pond,
will
I end up traveling backwards in time or cause damage to the
space/time
continuum? Would the pumps hurt each other at those speeds? They
would
be close to each other as well (within 1 foot of each other).

Thanks again. (sorry for the super long post).

-Little Scooby

Don't get me wrong? I like the idea. Especially at night with the
right lighting, but (here I go being negative again) IMO I think that
the surface area of that pond is too small and that 100 gal. is not
enough water to achieve the effect you are looking for. The water
needs a larger surface area to return or you will end up with a
high-tech very costly lawn sprinkler.
I really am interested in how this turns out, but, but, but, but,
but, (Just my nature I guess)

"Buckaroo" wrote in message
...
No pipe dream here. I think this piece of artwork is achievable with
the
right equipment/circumstances - run only on supervised calmer days,
winds
less than 5-10 MPH, high wind detection auto shutoff sensor unit
(cheap
probably under $100), slower pumps (under 1000 GPH), etc. It's just
a matter
of tweaking each variable to the perfect notch. It's like fine
tuning your
home network or tweaking your cars computer module with a superchip
upgrade
for maximum performance.
http://www.kap.uk.com/superchips.htm#superchip%201 (sorry for the
lame UK
link).

Anyway, I was kinda thinking that three 3000 GPH pumps would not get
along
together in such a small area (hence the reference to the space
time/continuum in my previous post).

I guess my questions need to be separated a bit.
Out of curiousities sake, I was wondering how high a 3000 or 4000
GPH pump
could make a foam jet. John R said he's gotten his standard
fountains to be
over 2 feet high with a 2400 GPH pump. The thing is that I'm
thinking his
fountains are more of the solid water stream type whereas the foam
jets are
fused with air bubbles so the streams should theoretically be
lighter since
they are part water and part oxygen not just all heavy water.

So, let's say I went down to three 1000 GPH pumps. The specs for the
foam
jets say that with a 1000 GPH pump, you can expect the height of the
foam
jet to be 30 inches. That's pretty close to 3 feet. The circulation
would be
at an acceptable level with only 1000 GPH pumps, and yes, the pond
would
possibly start to resemble a whirlpool of sorts but that doesn't
matter
since nothing living will be in it and the main goal is the 3 high
spouting
foam jet fountains. Avoiding the wind sounds like the biggest
obstacle, but
it sounds like this little gem:

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

(or a competing product like it -hopefully smaller, maybe painted
black or
green to blend in with the surrounding environment- would do the
trick) and
it only costs $69.

I dunno. I think it might just be possible, but yes, it would be one
touchy
son of a bitch water display with the patience of a madman to make
it all
work perfectly.
What are your thoughts about it working with 1000 GPH pumps instead
of
3000's?

Do-able or still impossible?

-Little Scooby


"Hank Pagel" wrote in message
.. .
Pardon the pun, but I think we have a pipe dream here.
Simple math ..... three 3000gph pumps ...... less than 100 gal. of
water .... that's one complete turnover every 30 seconds.
Simple hydraulics ..... Too much turbulence. Pumps would cavitate.
Water could not return to the pumps fast enough.
Have you ever watered your lawn or washed your car on a windy day?
You
get as wet as the car.
Like the song says "Don't tug on superman's cape or spit into
the
wind!"
Try using a garden hose to simulate the effect you want. I think
you
will find it much less than 3000gph. (IMO)
Time your garden hose into a 5 gal. bucket ......... See how far
you
get in 30 sec.

"Little Scooby" wrote in message
om...
"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
.com...
Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone
in
thinking
that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if
so,
wind would
presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there
is a
disruption
in your water source? I have visions of the house burning
down
when all
those pumps get overheated!

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


Unfortunately, it is in my nature to defy the odds so I have to
make
this an outdoor feature versus an indoor one, somehow there must
be
a
way (perhaps upgrading to a slightly bigger pond immediately if
needed
(but only as big as needed to adjust for the wind blowing which
is
why
I need to find out about how far the wind would blow the jet
streams
(perhaps if I also trim the height of the jet streams down to
lower
levels).

I'm curious though, if this were to be an indoor pond, what do
you
mean by disruption in my water source?

Do you mean if I left the feature unattended for weeks and all
the
water evaporated or something? Or if the preformed liner cracked
and
all the water leaked out?

A feature like this would require daily attention and I never go
on
vacations and if I did, I would unplug the pumps first. I'm
confused.
How would the pumps possibly burn out because I would never let
the
water level get to even a slightly dangerous low level (I have a
55
gallon aquarium that I fill with water every couple of days just
because I don't like to see the water level dip more than an
inch in
the aquarium.

Plus, don't these pumps have safety mechanisms built in that
would
prevent them from starting on fire? Especially the nice
Cal-pumps,
etc? I would only use a top of the line but resonably priced
pump.
Although, even if they didn't start on fire, smoke damage could
be
just as bad so I would hope they would just shut off after so
many
minutes of no water in them (or is this totally off base?). I've
never
let a pump run dry on any of my indoor fountains (tabletop
versions)
so I don't know what would happen to them, let alone a 3000 or
4000
GPH pump.

-Little Scooby

Little Sccoby wrote:
"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


Little Scooby wrote:

"Hank Pagel" wrote in message

. ..


when wind gets 10 mph it starts drifting the water colums on my TT's to
where most of the water falls to the side so thats about 18 -24 inches
here we get 20-30 mph winds quite often those push the taller column
(the 2ft one) 10-12 ft to the side

mind you I am out in the open no buildings around at all in a city i
think it wouldnt happen too often


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com




Thanks. That gives me something to start with. What a difference an extra 15
MPH wind gust makes!
And that's only a 2 foot column? I'm hoping for 3 to 5 foot lighter foam
jets. Hmm. Hope that high wind sensor shutoff unit has a quick response
time.

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

Thanks for the info. I can't wait to start experimenting. I live in a rural
area with high winds so a unit similar to the one above will be a necessity
for this to work.

-Little Scooby




-- I think it will work you are going to have about 0.83 gallons per
second in the air with the 1000gph pumps, if you put a ball valve on
the output of the pump you can throtle down that output when you want
to run the fountains and wind is blowing some.

before you get too far might put the pumps and jets in a tub an fire it
up and see just what happens with the water and then dig your sump
based on that





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very close
if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the final
tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny 100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I don't want it to look overcrowded either though, but since I have mastered
the art of making small rooms inside the house look huge, I should be able
to mask the fact that this pond is tiny and still have it all look perfect.

When you mention that the surface area of the pond is too small, what
exactly do you mean? Do you mean that with slight winds, the jets would blow
the water the couple feet out of the pond or that the jets require a larger
surface to land the water safely under calm to zero wind conditions?

The reason I ask is because besides the looks, the other reason I'm going
with the foam jets is because they have very small diameters when they come
down (compared to other fountains like the 3 tier sprinkles, etc.) The
diameter of space the jets need is very very small.

I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In 1
week I could be digging again, but I hope not...

-Little Scooby


"Hank Pagel" wrote in message
.. .
Don't get me wrong? I like the idea. Especially at night with the
right lighting, but (here I go being negative again) IMO I think that
the surface area of that pond is too small and that 100 gal. is not
enough water to achieve the effect you are looking for. The water
needs a larger surface area to return or you will end up with a
high-tech very costly lawn sprinkler.
I really am interested in how this turns out, but, but, but, but,
but, (Just my nature I guess)

"Buckaroo" wrote in message
...
No pipe dream here. I think this piece of artwork is achievable with
the
right equipment/circumstances - run only on supervised calmer days,
winds
less than 5-10 MPH, high wind detection auto shutoff sensor unit
(cheap
probably under $100), slower pumps (under 1000 GPH), etc. It's just
a matter
of tweaking each variable to the perfect notch. It's like fine
tuning your
home network or tweaking your cars computer module with a superchip
upgrade
for maximum performance.
http://www.kap.uk.com/superchips.htm#superchip%201 (sorry for the
lame UK
link).

Anyway, I was kinda thinking that three 3000 GPH pumps would not get
along
together in such a small area (hence the reference to the space
time/continuum in my previous post).

I guess my questions need to be separated a bit.
Out of curiousities sake, I was wondering how high a 3000 or 4000
GPH pump
could make a foam jet. John R said he's gotten his standard
fountains to be
over 2 feet high with a 2400 GPH pump. The thing is that I'm
thinking his
fountains are more of the solid water stream type whereas the foam
jets are
fused with air bubbles so the streams should theoretically be
lighter since
they are part water and part oxygen not just all heavy water.

So, let's say I went down to three 1000 GPH pumps. The specs for the
foam
jets say that with a 1000 GPH pump, you can expect the height of the
foam
jet to be 30 inches. That's pretty close to 3 feet. The circulation
would be
at an acceptable level with only 1000 GPH pumps, and yes, the pond
would
possibly start to resemble a whirlpool of sorts but that doesn't
matter
since nothing living will be in it and the main goal is the 3 high
spouting
foam jet fountains. Avoiding the wind sounds like the biggest
obstacle, but
it sounds like this little gem:

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

(or a competing product like it -hopefully smaller, maybe painted
black or
green to blend in with the surrounding environment- would do the
trick) and
it only costs $69.

I dunno. I think it might just be possible, but yes, it would be one
touchy
son of a bitch water display with the patience of a madman to make
it all
work perfectly.
What are your thoughts about it working with 1000 GPH pumps instead
of
3000's?

Do-able or still impossible?

-Little Scooby


"Hank Pagel" wrote in message
.. .
Pardon the pun, but I think we have a pipe dream here.
Simple math ..... three 3000gph pumps ...... less than 100 gal. of
water .... that's one complete turnover every 30 seconds.
Simple hydraulics ..... Too much turbulence. Pumps would cavitate.
Water could not return to the pumps fast enough.
Have you ever watered your lawn or washed your car on a windy day?
You
get as wet as the car.
Like the song says "Don't tug on superman's cape or spit into
the
wind!"
Try using a garden hose to simulate the effect you want. I think
you
will find it much less than 3000gph. (IMO)
Time your garden hose into a 5 gal. bucket ......... See how far
you
get in 30 sec.

"Little Scooby" wrote in message
om...
"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
.com...
Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone
in
thinking
that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if
so,
wind would
presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there
is a
disruption
in your water source? I have visions of the house burning
down
when all
those pumps get overheated!

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


Unfortunately, it is in my nature to defy the odds so I have to
make
this an outdoor feature versus an indoor one, somehow there must
be
a
way (perhaps upgrading to a slightly bigger pond immediately if
needed
(but only as big as needed to adjust for the wind blowing which
is
why
I need to find out about how far the wind would blow the jet
streams
(perhaps if I also trim the height of the jet streams down to
lower
levels).

I'm curious though, if this were to be an indoor pond, what do
you
mean by disruption in my water source?

Do you mean if I left the feature unattended for weeks and all
the
water evaporated or something? Or if the preformed liner cracked
and
all the water leaked out?

A feature like this would require daily attention and I never go
on
vacations and if I did, I would unplug the pumps first. I'm
confused.
How would the pumps possibly burn out because I would never let
the
water level get to even a slightly dangerous low level (I have a
55
gallon aquarium that I fill with water every couple of days just
because I don't like to see the water level dip more than an
inch in
the aquarium.

Plus, don't these pumps have safety mechanisms built in that
would
prevent them from starting on fire? Especially the nice
Cal-pumps,
etc? I would only use a top of the line but resonably priced
pump.
Although, even if they didn't start on fire, smoke damage could
be
just as bad so I would hope they would just shut off after so
many
minutes of no water in them (or is this totally off base?). I've
never
let a pump run dry on any of my indoor fountains (tabletop
versions)
so I don't know what would happen to them, let alone a 3000 or
4000
GPH pump.

-Little Scooby

I say, "Go for it." When you figure it all out, let us know worked, and
pictures please. ~ jan

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:54:25 -0500, "Little Sccoby" wrote:

I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very close
if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the final
tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.
snip
I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In 1
week I could be digging again, but I hope not...

-Little Scooby


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Little Scooby wrote:

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny 100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

Susan
shsimko at duke dot edu

Little Scooby wrote:

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny 100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

Susan
shsimko at duke dot edu

"Susan H. Simko" wrote in message
...
Little Scooby wrote:

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny
pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner
than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last
weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to
rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny
100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire
someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting
it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look
really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the
area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good
designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

The ground I live on is a form of clay known in the scientific community as
"Groundis as hardis cementis". I found the best way to dig for me, was to
use a pick axe or hand pick, and just hack a trench as wide as the tool. Let
the tool do the work. Then I would use a shovel to chip off the sides of the
trench, letting it fall into the trench. I'd then scoop out the loose pieces
of concrete...I mean clay. Lather, rinse repeat. Just keep expanding the
trench. Work in layers, getting wider each time.

Damn...ya know...I was going to take pictures of this when I discovered how
well the technique worked, but figured I would get laughed at.

BV.

"Susan H. Simko" wrote in message
...
Little Scooby wrote:

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny
pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner
than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last
weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to
rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny
100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire
someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting
it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look
really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the
area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good
designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

The ground I live on is a form of clay known in the scientific community as
"Groundis as hardis cementis". I found the best way to dig for me, was to
use a pick axe or hand pick, and just hack a trench as wide as the tool. Let
the tool do the work. Then I would use a shovel to chip off the sides of the
trench, letting it fall into the trench. I'd then scoop out the loose pieces
of concrete...I mean clay. Lather, rinse repeat. Just keep expanding the
trench. Work in layers, getting wider each time.

Damn...ya know...I was going to take pictures of this when I discovered how
well the technique worked, but figured I would get laughed at.

BV.

BenignVanilla wrote:

The ground I live on is a form of clay known in the scientific community as
"Groundis as hardis cementis". I found the best way to dig for me, was to
use a pick axe or hand pick, and just hack a trench as wide as the tool. Let
the tool do the work. Then I would use a shovel to chip off the sides of the
trench, letting it fall into the trench. I'd then scoop out the loose pieces
of concrete...I mean clay. Lather, rinse repeat. Just keep expanding the
trench. Work in layers, getting wider each time.

What about using an electric jackhammer then for stuff like that? I
(unbelieveably) only got 6 inches into the clay in the yard before
hitting sandstone. Put the shovel away immediately and headed off to
the tool rental place to get a jackhammer.

Damn...ya know...I was going to take pictures of this when I discovered how
well the technique worked, but figured I would get laughed at.

Why? *grin* I got a pic of the s.o.'s stepdad with the jackhammer. I
really wanted to have a go at using it but was assured that if I wanted
to be able to do anything else for the rest of the week that I ought to
give it a pass. Picking up the 70 pound jackhammer wasn't the issue,
controlling it while it was on was.

Susan
shsimko at duke dot edu

Ho! Hum! I live in sand. A child's plastic shovel and bucket is
all that's needed. You can go 18 ft. with an auger type post-hole
digger and hit water for a great shallow well to fill the pond.
Although in some sections and at high tide, you can hit salt water at
1 foot. (that's scary)

"BenignVanilla" wrote in message
...
"Susan H. Simko" wrote in message
...
Little Scooby wrote:

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a
tiny
pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond
sooner
than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all
last
weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem
right to
rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed
like a puny
100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to
hire
someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the
cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by
getting
it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it
look
really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape
for the
area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many
good
designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and
then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's
heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

The ground I live on is a form of clay known in the scientific
community as
"Groundis as hardis cementis". I found the best way to dig for me,
was to
use a pick axe or hand pick, and just hack a trench as wide as the
tool. Let
the tool do the work. Then I would use a shovel to chip off the
sides of the
trench, letting it fall into the trench. I'd then scoop out the
loose pieces
of concrete...I mean clay. Lather, rinse repeat. Just keep expanding
the
trench. Work in layers, getting wider each time.

Damn...ya know...I was going to take pictures of this when I
discovered how
well the technique worked, but figured I would get laughed at.

BV.

"Susan H. Simko" wrote:

Why? *grin* I got a pic of the s.o.'s stepdad with the jackhammer. I
really wanted to have a go at using it but was assured that if I wanted
to be able to do anything else for the rest of the week that I ought to
give it a pass. Picking up the 70 pound jackhammer wasn't the issue,
controlling it while it was on was.

From years of watching construction workers, I'd venture a guess that
you don't have a beer belly that overhangs the hammer, which seems to be
a requirement for proper operation.

"Susan H. Simko" wrote:

Why? *grin* I got a pic of the s.o.'s stepdad with the jackhammer. I
really wanted to have a go at using it but was assured that if I wanted
to be able to do anything else for the rest of the week that I ought to
give it a pass. Picking up the 70 pound jackhammer wasn't the issue,
controlling it while it was on was.

From years of watching construction workers, I'd venture a guess that
you don't have a beer belly that overhangs the hammer, which seems to be
a requirement for proper operation.

"Susan H. Simko" wrote:

Why? *grin* I got a pic of the s.o.'s stepdad with the jackhammer. I
really wanted to have a go at using it but was assured that if I wanted
to be able to do anything else for the rest of the week that I ought to
give it a pass. Picking up the 70 pound jackhammer wasn't the issue,
controlling it while it was on was.

From years of watching construction workers, I'd venture a guess that
you don't have a beer belly that overhangs the hammer, which seems to be
a requirement for proper operation.