The bacteria that work will find their way to the pond. The bugs in a
bottle are good for digesting solids, particularly when they get thick, but
not for the nitrogen cycle.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"ken" wrote in message
news:1246e51797fee88fa3015d87870c7046@TeraNews...
I have decided to use a variation of the Skippy filter (simple design
and cost were the main reasons). I do thank everyone for all their
help and advise. I have one more question. Do I need to buy some
bacteria or will it occur naturally? Seems to me that naturally is the
way to go, but being new to ponds, I need all the help I can get.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
"ken" wrote in message
ws.com...
I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
not, what are the possible substitutes?
Thanks for all your help.

I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build
a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters
are
just sadist that like doing too much work.

BV.

tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know
I
am kidding.

Kidding aside, you young pond whipper snapper, you'll be speaking another
tune when you REALLY get into maintenance this fall. Assuming you follow
our directions. ;o) ~ jan
snip

If my bottom drain does it's job, I should only need to clean out my VF
which is very easy since it is shallow. My only concern is that I to date
put off putting my diffuser on, so I know my BD is not being as effective as
it could be.

I realize I am green, but that won't stop me from being a smart a$$. All in
good fun, I certainly would not be so bold as to think I could run with you
big dogs. At least not until next year...if I come out of the winter with
living fish and a healthy pond, I'll ratchet my tude up a few notches. Next
year, I may even get involved in the salt wars.

For now, I will go back and not mess with my pond.

BV.

[major snippage here, as I'm not entirely sure who said what to whom]

*Somebody* said:

"I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
just sadist that like doing too much work."

I, however, simply cannot resist the opportunity to point out that the
people "that like doing too much work" are masochists! The sadists are
those of us who sit around [vicariously or otherwise] and watch.

Sincerely, Mrs. Language Person (hey, gimme a little credit, I was right
about "Yahoo" showing up in Gulliver's Travels! Not that anyone here
sked -- I'm just one of those wordy-nerdy types who only lives to Google!)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

[major snippage here, as I'm not entirely sure who said what to whom]

*Somebody* said:

"I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
just sadist that like doing too much work."

I, however, simply cannot resist the opportunity to point out that the
people "that like doing too much work" are masochists! The sadists are
those of us who sit around [vicariously or otherwise] and watch.

Sincerely, Mrs. Language Person (hey, gimme a little credit, I was right
about "Yahoo" showing up in Gulliver's Travels! Not that anyone here
sked -- I'm just one of those wordy-nerdy types who only lives to Google!)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

BenignVanilla wrote:
On the other hand, the just-add-plants mantra I see on the
internet is missing something because I tried it and it didn't work. I'm
hoping that a filter and a lot of plants work.
This is exactly the mantra I have been living by, and so far it has worked.

Which is great. But it works for you and didn't work for me, so
something is missing. It's more than just add plants. For the longest
time I'd buy anacharis, put it in the pond, and watch it die. Now, it's
going crazy. I have no idea why. Matt

Matt, There IS a whole lot more to it than just tossing in more plants. One
possibility: if your pH is too high or too low most plants can't take up
the nutrients. As a pond matures "usually" the pH comes down due to the
breaking down of organics, and thus the plants start taking up more
nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results. The filter
coming on line could have just be coincidental, but I'm sure it helped
regardless. Bio-filters have more areas for bacterias that break down
ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate to live on. Without getting to
technical, nitrate is what plants easily feed on.

Do you have a pH test kit?

Have you read these pages?
http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/H2oQual.html

~ jan See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
m...
[major snippage here, as I'm not entirely sure who said what to whom]

*Somebody* said:

"I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build
a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
just sadist that like doing too much work."

I, however, simply cannot resist the opportunity to point out that the
people "that like doing too much work" are masochists! The sadists are
those of us who sit around [vicariously or otherwise] and watch.

Sincerely, Mrs. Language Person (hey, gimme a little credit, I was right
about "Yahoo" showing up in Gulliver's Travels! Not that anyone here
sked -- I'm just one of those wordy-nerdy types who only lives to
Google!)

It was me that made that obligatory statement...And you are correct, but
leave it to an elitist bio-mechanical filter person to point it out. I bet
you do water changes too. Ooh...I feel so naughty.

BV.

In article , MattR
writes:

It's more complicated than that. I put in lots of plants and only had a
few fish, just like everyone says, and the water was green and the
plants yellow. My fish are much bigger and the green water is gone.
(We'll see about the plants.) The difference is the filter I added.


I don't know if it's all that complicated, your pond has found its balance,
Your fish have grown and multiplied thereby producing more waste that's then
turned into fertilizer for your plants. That's my problem right now, not
enough fish and too many plants that I need to fertilize to keep them green and
growing while I wait for my babies to grow up.

You basically have 3 types of filtration, mechanical for junk like flower
petals, leaves, grasses etc, biological for converting ammonia (fish waste)
into nitrates that fertilize your plants, and plants which remove excess
nutirents from the water thru roots. In an artificial pond you are trying to
mimic nature, but the ecosystem you are creating still has to find it's
balance, once it does, it pretty well takes care of itself thereafter.



Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Matt, There IS a whole lot more to it than just tossing in more plants. One
possibility: if your pH is too high or too low most plants can't take up
the nutrients. As a pond matures "usually" the pH comes down due to the
breaking down of organics, and thus the plants start taking up more
nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results. The filter
coming on line could have just be coincidental, but I'm sure it helped
regardless. Bio-filters have more areas for bacterias that break down
ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate to live on. Without getting to
technical, nitrate is what plants easily feed on.

Do you have a pH test kit?

Yes, the ph is fine. So is the hardness. There is no, and never was,
any measurable ammonia or nitirites or salt or a problem with chlorine
or dissolved oxygen. I don't have any other tests.

Have you read these pages?
http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/H2oQual.html

Yes I have. Furthermore, Norm Meck, who wrote that web page, also wrote
another (http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html) with a
description of how algae is killed from a byproduct of rotting algae and
a type of bacteria (not the ones that remove ammonia) found in filters.
He disagrees with your comment that "the plants start taking up more
nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results". It's more
along the lines of dead algae gets caught in the filter, heterotroph
bacteria feeds on the dead matter, and some substance is released into
the water that kills algae. So, full sun is fine and lots of nutrients
in the water is also fine.

Experience with my pond follows his theory to a T and doesn't agree with
the usual descriptions of pond chemistry I find on the net.

So, given that Meck's description of how to get rid of algae disagrees
with conventional wisdom and it more closely describes what happened in
my pond, I think it's fair to say there's more going on than most people
realize. Conventional wisdom says put in plants to remove algae and I
suspect it's more along the lines of remove the algae so the plants have
a chance to grow. If people put the plants in via a veggie filter then
they've also added the mechanism to kill the algae. If instead they add
the plants without a place for the algae to rot they will continue to
have green water (my experience). When someone asks how to get rid of
green water and the response is add water cress and hyacinth I suspect
it won't work (also my experience).

Matt

I'm surprised after reading Norm Meck's stuff that you pose the
question(s).

The only problem with "it's the filter" are my filterless ponsai or lily
pond with lots of plants, no suspended algae and clear water.

Though I must add out of honesty, I tried to add more fish this year than
last year and now have murky water. ~ jan

Yes I have. Furthermore, Norm Meck, who wrote that web page, also wrote
another (http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html) with a
description of how algae is killed from a byproduct of rotting algae and
a type of bacteria (not the ones that remove ammonia) found in filters.
He disagrees with your comment that "the plants start taking up more
nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results". It's more
along the lines of dead algae gets caught in the filter, heterotroph
bacteria feeds on the dead matter, and some substance is released into
the water that kills algae. So, full sun is fine and lots of nutrients
in the water is also fine.

Experience with my pond follows his theory to a T and doesn't agree with
the usual descriptions of pond chemistry I find on the net.

So, given that Meck's description of how to get rid of algae disagrees
with conventional wisdom and it more closely describes what happened in
my pond, I think it's fair to say there's more going on than most people
realize. Conventional wisdom says put in plants to remove algae and I
suspect it's more along the lines of remove the algae so the plants have
a chance to grow. If people put the plants in via a veggie filter then
they've also added the mechanism to kill the algae. If instead they add
the plants without a place for the algae to rot they will continue to
have green water (my experience). When someone asks how to get rid of
green water and the response is add water cress and hyacinth I suspect
it won't work (also my experience).

Matt


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I'm surprised after reading Norm Meck's stuff that you pose the
question(s).

I haven't asked any questions in this thread so I'm not sure what you're
referring too.

The only problem with "it's the filter" are my filterless ponsai or lily
pond with lots of plants, no suspended algae and clear water.

I never said a filter was necessary to remove algae or that plants don't
work. I said plants alone are not sufficient. I also said I bought lots
of plants a year ago hoping they would clean up my pond and they pretty
much just died. This agrees with Meck's web site.

I originally said take the idea of just adding plants to remove algae
with a grain of salt because there's more to it than that. That other
part is, contrary to conventional wisdom, algae is killed from rotting
algae and some type of bacteria and not that plants out compete the
algae. So, while plants remove nutrients from the water (and should
therefore be encouraged) they are only part of what it takes to clear
green water.

Matt

I'm surprised after reading Norm Meck's stuff that you pose the
question(s).

I haven't asked any questions in this thread so I'm not sure what you're
referring too.

The only problem with "it's the filter" are my filterless ponsai or lily
pond with lots of plants, no suspended algae and clear water.

I never said a filter was necessary to remove algae or that plants don't
work. I said plants alone are not sufficient. I also said I bought lots
of plants a year ago hoping they would clean up my pond and they pretty
much just died. This agrees with Meck's web site.

I originally said take the idea of just adding plants to remove algae
with a grain of salt because there's more to it than that. That other
part is, contrary to conventional wisdom, algae is killed from rotting
algae and some type of bacteria and not that plants out compete the
algae. So, while plants remove nutrients from the water (and should
therefore be encouraged) they are only part of what it takes to clear
green water.

Matt

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:27:30 GMT, MattR wrote:

I haven't asked any questions in this thread so I'm not sure what you're
referring too.

Just something I read in other threads too old to respond to.

The only problem with "it's the filter" are my filterless ponsai or lily
pond with lots of plants, no suspended algae and clear water.

I never said a filter was necessary to remove algae or that plants don't
work. I said plants alone are not sufficient.

This hasn't been my experience.

This agrees with Meck's web site.

I guess I'll have to go back and re-read, maybe he's changed something
since I read it a few years old. What I remember is the relationships of
the different algaes competing again each other. Can you remember where in
particular he says plants alone don't work?

Sure, plants alone won't work on a well stock koi pond, but they work fine
in a very low stock goldfish pond or watergarden with just minnows. IME
~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

I never said a filter was necessary to remove algae or that plants don't
work. I said plants alone are not sufficient.


This hasn't been my experience.

It might be. You don't have a separate filter but maybe you have enough
surface area with all your plants that you don't need a filter.


I guess I'll have to go back and re-read, maybe he's changed something
since I read it a few years old. What I remember is the relationships of
the different algaes competing again each other. Can you remember where in
particular he says plants alone don't work?

Check this page: http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html It
describes how ponds are clear because something kills the algae and not
that there's some sort of competition and the algae loses. As he says,

"THERE IS SOME COMPONENT IN CLEAR ESTABLISHED POND WATER THAT IS TOXIC
TO THE BLOOM ALGAE."

Also,

"This theory is exactly the opposite of competition effects. Remember
the myths based on Liebig's Law involve the removal or reduction of some
factor, such as nutrients, or light, required by the bloom algae. This
theory states that something is naturally ADDED to the water that kills
the bloom algae."

He says the added algicide is a byproduct of some type of bacteria (not
the kind that removes ammonia) that feeds on dead algae cells. If this
is true then, in your pond without a filter, it's not a lot of plants
sucking up nutrients that kill algae but maybe a lot of plant roots or
rocks or who knows what that provide enough surface area for the
bacteria to live. So in your case plants alone work but they're not
working for the reason many people think they do. I also suspect you
have a *lot* of plants in the filterless pond. Or at least, compared to
many people that add half a dozen plants to a 1000 gallon pond in hopes
of clearing the algae.

Sure, plants alone won't work on a well stock koi pond, but they work fine
in a very low stock goldfish pond or watergarden with just minnows. IME

I wonder how many plants and how many fish. I had 6 small fish in 1300
gallons and going from 10 to 20 plants did nothing for the water. It
would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.

My reason for bringing any of this up is that a year ago I was getting
frustrated trying any of the many ideas I've seen and not getting anywhere.

Matt

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:31:47 GMT, MattR
wrote:


Sure, plants alone won't work on a well stock koi pond, but they work fine
in a very low stock goldfish pond or watergarden with just minnows. IME

I wonder how many plants and how many fish. I had 6 small fish in 1300
gallons and going from 10 to 20 plants did nothing for the water. It
would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.

My reason for bringing any of this up is that a year ago I was getting
frustrated trying any of the many ideas I've seen and not getting anywhere.

Matt


I have about 100 fish in 2000 gallons.

My experience is that my ultraviolet light ensures no algae blooms.
These algae blooms TOTALLY cloud the water until the plants come into
action, provided you have plants. Still, if you do not have plants,
but do have the UV light, THEN the nitrites will build up so high
that the fish are subject to a toxic environment even with crystal
clear water.

This past year, I wintered over a bunch of hornwort that fell to the
pond bottom and then I bought about 20 bunches of anacharis in the
early spring (next year I will buy 30 bunches). Everything did come
together this year. Also, I have been seeding and maintaining bacteria
(BZT) every week with about two teaspoons of the BZT. My filter with
tons of mesh material and bioballs is working without any (like none)
differential pressure across the filter. Like a Timex, it takes a
licken, but keeps on ticken.

Here is the result, as of mid-July 2003:

http://bmoke.freeyellow.com/cppg028.htm

My filter design is based on http://users.owt.com/jjspond.

I (my fish) could not be happier.


Bill M.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:31:47 GMT, MattR wrote:

Check this page: http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html

Well, yea... that is the same one I read several years ago and no mention
of higher plant forms, he does call different algaes higher plants forms
than suspended algae. And he does qualify at the bottom of the article that
he is talking about "koi ponds". Many of us here when we talk "more plants"
we mean the lilies, marginals, submerged, etc. not string algaes. ;o) In a
mixture of koi/goldfish & water gardens. That's why they call us the Turtle
& Tadpole group. ;o)

"THERE IS SOME COMPONENT IN CLEAR ESTABLISHED POND WATER THAT IS TOXIC
TO THE BLOOM ALGAE."

He's talking about a possible inhibitor between species. Similar to
sunflower seed hulls, ever notice that nothing grows under a sunflower seed
bird feeder, except maybe sunflowers? Inhibitors (though I think there is
another name for it). Happens under walnut trees too, it's not just a lack
of water thing.

He says the added algicide is a byproduct of some type of bacteria (not
the kind that removes ammonia) that feeds on dead algae cells. If this
is true

But see, his hunches/theories aren't any more true than the belief here
that more plants and NOT scrubbing the string algae off the sides of the
pond does the same thing. A combo of inhibitor plus removal of nutrients
perhaps?

It would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.

Well I guess we don't do a very good job of quantifying because we're
afraid that if we tell them how many plants we really think they need, it
will scare them right out of the hobby. ;o) So we usually say, buy as many
as one can afford, barter, or gets snips off of. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website