On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:39:31 GMT, Fish Head wrote:

I have about 100 fish in 2000 gallons.
Here is the result, as of mid-July 2003:

http://bmoke.freeyellow.com/cppg028.htm

My filter design is based on http://users.owt.com/jjspond.
I (my fish) could not be happier.
Bill M.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thanks Bill. ;o)
~ jan jordan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Well, yea... that is the same one I read several years ago and no mention
of higher plant forms, he does call different algaes higher plants forms
than suspended algae. And he does qualify at the bottom of the article that
he is talking about "koi ponds".

Fish crap is fish crap and green water will grow in anything. The ideas
should apply to any pond. I have 2 medium sized koi and too many
shibunkin (want some?). Is it a koi pond or a fish pond?

Many of us here when we talk "more plants"
we mean the lilies, marginals, submerged, etc. not string algaes. ;o)
In a
mixture of koi/goldfish & water gardens.

You type too fast or I lost what you were trying to get at. Nobody said
string algae was pretty/fun/tasty or have any socially redeeming values.

"THERE IS SOME COMPONENT IN CLEAR ESTABLISHED POND WATER THAT IS TOXIC
TO THE BLOOM ALGAE."


He's talking about a possible inhibitor between species. Similar to
sunflower seed hulls, ever notice that nothing grows under a sunflower seed
bird feeder, except maybe sunflowers?

I wouldn't quite say that. The algicide doesn't come from plants. It
comes from rotting algae. I.e., you could have clear water with no
plants. At least for awhile. That's what his tests showed.


He says the added algicide is a byproduct of some type of bacteria (not
the kind that removes ammonia) that feeds on dead algae cells. If this
is true


But see, his hunches/theories aren't any more true than the belief here
that more plants and NOT scrubbing the string algae off the sides of the
pond does the same thing.

I don't know, he ran tests. Besides, now that my soup algae is gone I
don't have any string algae. But my plants are happier.

A combo of inhibitor plus removal of nutrients
perhaps?

I think this is a key idea. Plants are about the only way to remove the
nutrients and eventually the nutrients have to be removed. But plants
are not what kill the algae. So a healthy pond will have both plants and
a place for the algae to rot. If you can put in 100 plants then maybe
you don't need a filter (How many plants and fish do you have in your
filterless pond?). If you can only afford 10 plants then a filter that
can hold rotting algae is probably a good idea. Or a veggie filter with
the right design will also work.

It would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.


Well I guess we don't do a very good job of quantifying because we're
afraid that if we tell them how many plants we really think they need, it
will scare them right out of the hobby. ;o)

I think you're right and I think that's not a good idea. Better in the
long run to have a happy ponder.

Matt

Fish crap is fish crap and green water will grow in anything. The ideas
should apply to any pond. I have 2 medium sized koi and too many
shibunkin (want some?). Is it a koi pond or a fish pond?

You miss the point of where Norm is coming from, these Koi Pond people
don't put ANY plants in their ponds. They are just now coming to realize
the importance plants play to de-stress the fish, give them something to
hide under or play around. They originally didn't want any thing to
distract from the beauty of their living jewels. Can't blame them
considering the money they spend, but these fish aren't works of art, they
are living animals that deserve more than the sterile surroundings of a man
made pond of straight sides, almost flat bottom, talk about a prison cell.

You type too fast or I lost what you were trying to get at. Nobody said
string algae was pretty/fun/tasty or have any socially redeeming values.

But that's what Norm is trying to point out in his article, his hunch: it
is the inhibitor/antibodies off of the fuzz algae on the sides of the ponds
that stops the suspended algae. That is "the Component". At least that is
what I got out of his article and his tests.

I wouldn't quite say that. The algicide doesn't come from plants. It
comes from rotting algae. I.e., you could have clear water with no
plants. At least for awhile. That's what his tests showed.

Algicide in no way comes from dead algae, when algae dies it releases
almost all the nutrients it ever consumed. That's why when people use
commercial algaecides it clears the water for a day or 3 and than the
suspended algae comes back just as strong or worst than before.

(How many plants and fish do you have in your
filterless pond?).

1,000 gallons. 13 lilies, 5 marginals, 2 lotus, water hyacinths
& anacharis. 4 adult goldfish and lots of babies. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan
(How many plants and fish do you have in your
filterless pond?).

1,000 gallons. 13 lilies, 5 marginals, 2 lotus, water hyacinths
& anacharis. 4 adult goldfish and lots of babies. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

Jan,

My pond is oval(more or less) 18 x 8 x 2' deep plus the stream. I
estimate it at 1650 gallons, surface area between 110-120 square feet.
I have 9 gold fish (from 3" to 9"), 10 lilies (covers 3/4 of
surface), 2 reeds(small), 5 iris(small), and 60 bunches(10 stems each)
of anacharis plants.

With reference to anacharis or other underwater oxygenators, when I
set up my pond I was told by the local pond guy to use 75-100
bunches(he says 7 stems per bunch)and also from the on line pond
calculator at...

http://webpages.charter.net/crush11/uscalc/usoval.htm

....to add 55 bunches (I'll guess they meant the 10 stem standard
bunches).

Reciently when I posted about water problems, I was advised to remove
some of my plants? I don't remember who suggested it, but I've been
wondering about it since then on & off. What plants would I remove
and why? Seeing your list of plants and realizing you have a similar
seniaro(plant wise not water problems), what do you think? Are there
too many anacharis? Can't remove the lilies they are my reason for a
water garden and I need them for surface cover. There's not much
else. BTW...water is clearing, thank heavens after a lot of praying
to the pond gods.

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

You miss the point of where Norm is coming from, these Koi Pond people
don't put ANY plants in their ponds. They are just now coming to realize
the importance plants play to de-stress the fish, give them something to
hide under or play around. They originally didn't want any thing to
distract from the beauty of their living jewels. Can't blame them
considering the money they spend, but these fish aren't works of art, they
are living animals that deserve more than the sterile surroundings of a man
made pond of straight sides, almost flat bottom, talk about a prison cell.

I like plants, too. And I don't think Norm is suggesting you don't need
them. He really doesn't mentiom plants on that web page.

But that's what Norm is trying to point out in his article, his hunch: it
is the inhibitor/antibodies off of the fuzz algae on the sides of the ponds
that stops the suspended algae. That is "the Component". At least that is
what I got out of his article and his tests.

No, it's not from the fuzz algae. Here's what he said: "When algae dies
and is subjected to aerobic bacterial decomposition by heterotroph
bacteria, a by-product of this process is a substance, released into the
water, that is toxic to the living algae." This is what I'm calling an
algicide.

Algicide in no way comes from dead algae, when algae dies it releases

Not dead algae, rotting algae. It's the other bacteria eating the dead
algae that generates the algicide.

almost all the nutrients it ever consumed. That's why when people use
commercial algaecides it clears the water for a day or 3 and than the
suspended algae comes back just as strong or worst than before.

Right. The good news about this algicide is that it's constantly
generated at just the right amounts. As the algae drops so does the
algicide because there will be less dead algae for the bacteria to feed
on. If the algae picks up the algicide will eventually pick up to match.
Kind of nice. It also explains spring algae blooms that come and go.

1,000 gallons. 13 lilies, 5 marginals, 2 lotus, water hyacinths
& anacharis. 4 adult goldfish and lots of babies. ~ jan

That is quite a bit of plants. Must look nice. When someone asks about
adding plants this is a good reference point. The 60 bunches of
anacharis/1600 gallons that Sue mentioned is also a good reference
point. If someone bought all this for a new pond at their local pond
store they'd probably spend over $400 on plants and still have to wait
for them to mature.

Matt

Hi Sue,

I must have missed that thread, what was your water quality problem?
~ jan

On 21 Aug 2003 05:47:25 -0700, (Sue Walsh) wrote:

Jan,

My pond is oval(more or less) 18 x 8 x 2' deep plus the stream. I
estimate it at 1650 gallons, surface area between 110-120 square feet.
I have 9 gold fish (from 3" to 9"), 10 lilies (covers 3/4 of
surface), 2 reeds(small), 5 iris(small), and 60 bunches(10 stems each)
of anacharis plants.

With reference to anacharis or other underwater oxygenators, when I
set up my pond I was told by the local pond guy to use 75-100
bunches(he says 7 stems per bunch)and also from the on line pond
calculator at...

http://webpages.charter.net/crush11/uscalc/usoval.htm

...to add 55 bunches (I'll guess they meant the 10 stem standard
bunches).

Reciently when I posted about water problems, I was advised to remove
some of my plants? I don't remember who suggested it, but I've been
wondering about it since then on & off. What plants would I remove
and why? Seeing your list of plants and realizing you have a similar
seniaro(plant wise not water problems), what do you think? Are there
too many anacharis? Can't remove the lilies they are my reason for a
water garden and I need them for surface cover. There's not much
else. BTW...water is clearing, thank heavens after a lot of praying
to the pond gods.

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:25:48 GMT, MattR wrote:

No, it's not from the fuzz algae. Here's what he said: "When algae dies
and is subjected to aerobic bacterial decomposition by heterotroph
bacteria, a by-product of this process is a substance, released into the
water, that is toxic to the living algae."

Okay...... well than, there's your "a filter must be part of the component
for clear water" as heterotroph bacteria thrive in a bio-filter. This was
discussed in one of the required reading KHA articles (Water Chemistry by
NormM) on the AKCA.org website. They suspect the reason folks using
pressurized systems often find they need UV to keep the suspend algae under
control is because the frequency of backwashing removes the delicate
heterotrophic bacteria. (Koi Ponds few plants.)

One has to remember that even with high plant load, low fish load, pH and
aeration also play a part. Adding a filter usually also means adding water
movement and water falling from a pipe or waterfall. In my veggie pond I do
have an air wand running and a bell fountain. I still had murky water and
that was a high pH problem. I have corrected the pH problem just the other
day and I can finally see the tops of the lily baskets again. Still not as
clear as in previous years, but getting there.... course DH wants to move
the Q-tank filter to the lily pond now. s ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan

I must have missed that thread, what was your water quality problem?

Basic ongoing dark brown water, forever. I think the thread was
"Black Water". Hubby has since hooked up a homemade filter to add to
the Savio Skimmer/Filter and it began to clear. Cause and effect or
coincidence? Now I can see the bottom for the first time in 4 months.
Grateful to be able to see my fish, finally as it has just cleared in
the past few days. Getting clearer every day, although not gin clear,
but still greenish clear. Running a Pondmaster Mag 3600gph pump.
Considering adding the UV unit into the Savio to get rid of the green,
but not ready to spend the money yet. I've been really trying to
maintain the "Don't Mess With The Pond" advice. Hey BV, you out
there, seeing this???

It was Nedra that recommended I remove some plants (I just searched to
see who it was). Still not sure what she wanted me to remove or why.

Sorry it takes me so long to respond, I use yahoo and it takes 3-6
hours for my responses to be posted, real drag.

Thanks for any enlightenment on this topic.

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd

All I can think of is perhaps Nedra misunderstood the problem? Only time I
can think of removing plants is when you have so many a 2,000 gallon pond
is really only 200 gallons of water and the fish have no place to swim. ;o)
~ jan

On 21 Aug 2003 16:35:10 -0700, (Sue Walsh) wrote:

~ jan

I must have missed that thread, what was your water quality problem?

Basic ongoing dark brown water, forever. I think the thread was
"Black Water". Hubby has since hooked up a homemade filter to add to
the Savio Skimmer/Filter and it began to clear. Cause and effect or
coincidence? Now I can see the bottom for the first time in 4 months.
Grateful to be able to see my fish, finally as it has just cleared in
the past few days. Getting clearer every day, although not gin clear,
but still greenish clear. Running a Pondmaster Mag 3600gph pump.
Considering adding the UV unit into the Savio to get rid of the green,
but not ready to spend the money yet. I've been really trying to
maintain the "Don't Mess With The Pond" advice. Hey BV, you out
there, seeing this???

It was Nedra that recommended I remove some plants (I just searched to
see who it was). Still not sure what she wanted me to remove or why.

Sorry it takes me so long to respond, I use yahoo and it takes 3-6
hours for my responses to be posted, real drag.

Thanks for any enlightenment on this topic.

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
They suspect the reason folks using
pressurized systems often find they need UV to keep the suspend algae under
control is because the frequency of backwashing removes the delicate
heterotrophic bacteria. (Koi Ponds few plants.)

Don't people with fluidized filters also need UV?

One more question for your plants only pond; how do your plants get fed?
Do you add fertilizer of any kind? Are your plants in pea gravel or
dirt? I just added some plants and they're mostly in pea gravel and I
hope they'll grow.

Matt

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote in message
All I can think of is perhaps Nedra misunderstood the problem? Only time I
can think of removing plants is when you have so many a 2,000 gallon pond
is really only 200 gallons of water and the fish have no place to swim. ;o)


Thanks Jan,
I'm glad I didn't trash any of the plants. There is lots of room for
fish to swim. There was even room for my husband to climb in to
remove dead lily leaves and hand ferterlize lily plants. Certainly it
is not jam packed. 1650 gallons and 9 small to medium goldfish is not
overstocked as far as I can tell. I only feed them 2 days a week.
Kind of a compromise with my daughters never feed them and my instinct
to feed them every day. We'll see about overstocked when the babies
start arriving...

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
They suspect the reason folks using
pressurized systems often find they need UV

Don't people with fluidized filters also need UV?

Aren't those pressurized?

One more question for your plants only pond; how do your plants get fed?
Do you add fertilizer of any kind? Are your plants in pea gravel or
dirt? I just added some plants and they're mostly in pea gravel and I
hope they'll grow. Matt

The lilies are in my sandy soil and I feed them twice a month with Tomato
spikes. The others are in semi-sandy soil and rocks, I don't feed those. In
the spring the frogs come in and between them and spawning then all the
tadpoles they fertilize, then later I put out 2-4 large goldfish, they
spawn and parents and babies fertilize the plants. ~ jan

Click on *My Lilypond*
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

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~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Don't people with fluidized filters also need UV?


Aren't those pressurized?

I don't think they have to be but they could. The water has to go
through at a consistent rate to keep the beads or sand from settling.
But other than that it shouldn't matter. I think those things really
are for koi or big fish loads because they're made just for removing
ammonia.


The lilies are in my sandy soil and I feed them twice a month with Tomato
spikes. The others are in semi-sandy soil and rocks, I don't feed those. In
the spring the frogs come in and between them and spawning then all the
tadpoles they fertilize, then later I put out 2-4 large goldfish, they
spawn and parents and babies fertilize the plants. ~ jan

Great! so there is hope for my plants. My lillies are in mostly clay.
The rest are in pea gravel. Ever since the water cleared they're
shooting roots out everywhere. Now, I just need to remove a lot of the
little fish and they're getting wise to the trap...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:29:51 GMT, MattR wrote:

Great! so there is hope for my plants.

There's aways hope. ;o)

One thing I learned this year was if the plants aren't doing well, it's
another reason to check water quality. A pH of 9 or more can really slow
things down so I found. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

One thing I learned this year was if the plants aren't doing well, it's
another reason to check water quality. A pH of 9 or more can really slow
things down so I found. ~ jan

I measured it this morning and again tonite and it was between 8 and
8.5. I think that's ok.