Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:


You are my kind of Dude, Dude!

Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!

Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
mess with gas or electricity!

For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!



I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
down the better.

Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to
investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap
goldfish anyway.)

I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then
I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
Mike

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...

While it may add sone excitement to the pond, I personally don't see it
as aesthetic (adding beauty) to the whole relaxing pond scene.
Like my campfire does. A fire ball display would be more for a special
occasion like a 4th of July Party. JMHO
Not to mention the possible adverse effects on any fish.
The repeated Mini explosions would be no different a scare than the
apperance of any preditor to your pond.

The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
an underwatergas well fire
where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
sq. ft.
Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.

Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.

My campfire produces 15,000 - 50,000 BTU's / hour
i gal. propane = 91,000 - 96,000 BTU (depending on the % of Butane
added in your area)
That is .16 - .49 gal of propane / hour
1# propane = 21,699 BTU
1# = .238 gal
1 - 20# BBQ tank = 4.75 gal = 433980 BTU
@15,000 BTUH 20# lasts 29 hours
@ $2.00/Gal it costs me $0.32 / hr to burn

@50,000 BTUH 20# lasts 8.6 hours
@ $2.00/gal it cost me $1.10 / hr to burn
************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************

All this just to say a gas flame is very hard to maintain, and control
with out:
1. a constant gas supply,
2. proper Air to Fuel ratio,

3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)
4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf

5. produce a constant flame



I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
but then,
AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

Sorry for the rambling

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:


You are my kind of Dude, Dude!

Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!

Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
mess with gas or electricity!

For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!



I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
down the better.

Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to
investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap
goldfish anyway.)

I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then
I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
Mike

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...

While it may add sone excitement to the pond, I personally don't see it
as aesthetic (adding beauty) to the whole relaxing pond scene.
Like my campfire does. A fire ball display would be more for a special
occasion like a 4th of July Party. JMHO
Not to mention the possible adverse effects on any fish.
The repeated Mini explosions would be no different a scare than the
apperance of any preditor to your pond.

The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
an underwatergas well fire
where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
sq. ft.
Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.

Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.

My campfire produces 15,000 - 50,000 BTU's / hour
i gal. propane = 91,000 - 96,000 BTU (depending on the % of Butane
added in your area)
That is .16 - .49 gal of propane / hour
1# propane = 21,699 BTU
1# = .238 gal
1 - 20# BBQ tank = 4.75 gal = 433980 BTU
@15,000 BTUH 20# lasts 29 hours
@ $2.00/Gal it costs me $0.32 / hr to burn

@50,000 BTUH 20# lasts 8.6 hours
@ $2.00/gal it cost me $1.10 / hr to burn
************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************

All this just to say a gas flame is very hard to maintain, and control
with out:
1. a constant gas supply,
2. proper Air to Fuel ratio,

3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)
4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf

5. produce a constant flame



I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
but then,
AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

Sorry for the rambling

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:35:11 -0500, Chagoi
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:

snip

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...

My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
"continuous flow" at the surface. to sustain the flame.

Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
snip

The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
an underwatergas well fire
where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
sq. ft.
Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.

Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.

good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
else the testing should be entertaining.


snip

3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)

well, I guess the orifice size I was planning would be about 250
square feet :-)

4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf

5. produce a constant flame



I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
but then,
AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

Sorry for the rambling

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com


That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
input!"


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:35:11 -0500, Chagoi
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:

snip

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...

My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
"continuous flow" at the surface. to sustain the flame.

Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
snip

The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
an underwatergas well fire
where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
sq. ft.
Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.

Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.

good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
else the testing should be entertaining.


snip

3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)

well, I guess the orifice size I was planning would be about 250
square feet :-)

4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf

5. produce a constant flame



I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
but then,
AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

Sorry for the rambling

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com


That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
input!"


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Mike Patterson wrote:

My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
"Continuous flow" at the surface to sustain the flame.

Again you could not afford the amount of gas required to come close to what
could be considered any thing close to a "continuous flow".

Natural gas is normally supplied to a residential customer at 4 PSI.
About the pressure you exert when you blow up a balloon
while LPG is regulated to 14 Inches of water column max.
which is about the pressure you exert when you exhale while breathing
normally.

any pressure ABOVE these and the gas WILL NOT light reliably.

And PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE Mike do not even attempt to run a direct line
from the tank,
That is About 110 #'s of pressure ""EXXXTREMELY DANGEROUS""
Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
snip


Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residential rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.


good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
else the testing should be entertaining.


snip

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg




That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
input!"

Thanks for " NO Disassemble Johnny 5"

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Mike Patterson wrote:

My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
"Continuous flow" at the surface to sustain the flame.

Natural gas is normally supplied to a residential customer at 4 PSI.
About the pressure you exert when you blow up a balloon
while LPG is regulated to 14 Inches of water column max.
which is about the pressure you exert when you exhale while breathing
normally.

any pressure ABOVE these and the gas WILL NOT light reliably.

What ever you do Mike, Please, Please, Please, DO NOT try to get more
gas flow
by connecting directly to the tank. The pressure in the tank is about
110#’s. It is
EXXXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and at that pressure it will not ignite at first,
but when the mixture 10 to 20 feet away gets to the proper proportions,
and you attempt to light it. It will ignite. But the results will be a
fireball of disastrous proportions. It will blow like a quart of
gasoline that was tossed on the ground and lit 30 seconds later. A big
WOOSH, FIREBALL,
and a FLASHOVER across a very large area.


Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
snip


Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residential rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.


good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
else the testing should be entertaining.

I don’t consider Fireballs of this proportion ENTERTAINING!!!

That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
input!"



“NO Disassemble Johnny 5”

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com