Hi all,

This is my second post here, and is connected to my "salt in pond"
post I just submitted.

Background: I've had a 400 gallon pond stocked with Koi and goldfish
for over a year, and everything has gone fantastic. Good water
quality, happy, tame fish. I guess it was beginners' luck . . .

Then, two weeks ago, one of my koi (a solid pale gold that I really
liked) died from mouth rot (as diagnosed by my local pond supply
place). A check of the water revealed that pH had climbed from 7.1 to
8.9 in a couple of months (the last time I had checked), which totally
blew me away.

Prior to the fish's death, there was a behavioral change. The fish had
all become very skittish, and no longer tame. The pond place said
there was possibly a bird-predator, and that, combined with the pH
increase, may have stressed the fish and increased susceptibility to
the disease.

The pond place told me to use this malachite green product and change
the water over the course of the 3 daily applications. I followed the
instructions to the letter, and retested the pH, which was now back
down to 7.0. I also added a tiny bit of salt (see my other post
regarding why I am worried about using salt). My friends kidded me
when I told them what I was doing . . . they said I'd end up with
Ceviche.

Anyhoo . . . My reason for posting is this: The fish seemed to respond
well to the treatment . . . they became more active and behaved
better. Then a week after the treatment, disaster struck and a second
koi died!

I am now at a loss as to what to do: Was the second death due to
merely the fact the animal was already too far gone and was doomed to
death anyways despite the treatment --- and therefore I need not worry
about the remaining fish? Or did it die because the treatment was
ineffectual at curing the problem, and are all my other fish at risk
--- and therefore I better do something . . . but what? If malachite
green didn't work, what do I do? Or am I over-reacting?

I presume that the disease was introduced with an infected fish that I
unknowingly introduced into the pond. If this is the case, how do I
treat incoming fish before putting them in the pond? Do I put a few
drops of Malachite Green product into the bag with water and fish in
it? If so, how many drops and how long do I delay introducing the fish
to the pond? I don't have any other water reservoirs to put new fish
into , so the only approach I can think of is keeping the fish in the
bag a couple of days?

I hope the experts in this forum can help!

Thanks!

D

yes, you have been very lucky. recommendations are
1000 gallons for the first koi, 100 gallons for every additional koi.
40 gallons per GF.
any idea what was causing the pH climb? cement pond or blocks in the pond?
what are your water quality parameters, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH?
I think the major problem is you got toxic water. GF and koi dont like sudden drops
in water temp, and I am not sure you are controlling the temp of your pond.
what kind of filtration and aeration do you have in this pond. how many koi and GF
do you have?
Ingrid


(seed lover) wrote:
Background: I've had a 400 gallon pond stocked with Koi and goldfish
for over a year, and everything has gone fantastic. Good water
quality, happy, tame fish. I guess it was beginners' luck . . .

Then, two weeks ago, one of my koi (a solid pale gold that I really
liked) died from mouth rot (as diagnosed by my local pond supply
place). A check of the water revealed that pH had climbed from 7.1 to
8.9 in a couple of months (the last time I had checked), which totally
blew me away.

Prior to the fish's death, there was a behavioral change. The fish had
all become very skittish, and no longer tame. The pond place said
there was possibly a bird-predator, and that, combined with the pH
increase, may have stressed the fish and increased susceptibility to
the disease.

The pond place told me to use this malachite green product and change
the water over the course of the 3 daily applications. I followed the
instructions to the letter, and retested the pH, which was now back
down to 7.0. I also added a tiny bit of salt (see my other post
regarding why I am worried about using salt). My friends kidded me
when I told them what I was doing . . . they said I'd end up with
Ceviche.

Anyhoo . . . My reason for posting is this: The fish seemed to respond
well to the treatment . . . they became more active and behaved
better. Then a week after the treatment, disaster struck and a second
koi died!

I am now at a loss as to what to do: Was the second death due to
merely the fact the animal was already too far gone and was doomed to
death anyways despite the treatment --- and therefore I need not worry
about the remaining fish? Or did it die because the treatment was
ineffectual at curing the problem, and are all my other fish at risk
--- and therefore I better do something . . . but what? If malachite
green didn't work, what do I do? Or am I over-reacting?

I presume that the disease was introduced with an infected fish that I
unknowingly introduced into the pond. If this is the case, how do I
treat incoming fish before putting them in the pond? Do I put a few
drops of Malachite Green product into the bag with water and fish in
it? If so, how many drops and how long do I delay introducing the fish
to the pond? I don't have any other water reservoirs to put new fish
into , so the only approach I can think of is keeping the fish in the
bag a couple of days?

I hope the experts in this forum can help!

Thanks!

D



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The mouth rot is usually associated with a wound to the mouth, caused by the
fish going after something on the rocks or similar hard surface.
www.koivet.com has information on columnaris disease. You did not give any
information about the second fishes condition. It may be advisable to go to
http://www.akca.org/ and see if there is a local koi club and a contact.
Most of the koi clubs have a health hotline or koi health associate that is
willing to come and look at your fish and do the necessary microscopic
evaluation for any needed treatment. You also did not give specific
information on the ammonia level, nitrite level, KH or pH.

Your pond is pretty small for koi. Koi get large. My first pond was a two
pond setup that had about 300 gallons total with koi, gold fish, and
catfish. At the end of the first year, I had to get rid of the catfish and
most of the goldfish. The next year I added a larger pond, since the fish
could hardly turn around. The next year, I had all kinds of disease
problems, and have since learned a lot about water quality management.

The rule of thumb of a thousand gallons for the first koi and a hundred for
each additional koi, allows for the koi to grow and not overpower the pond.
I have over 4000 gallons in my larger pond with about 25 koi that will
average close to 24 inches each. The rule can be violated with enough
filtration, but the smaller the pond, the faster it changes from good water
to poor water.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"seed lover" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

This is my second post here, and is connected to my "salt in pond"
post I just submitted.

Background: I've had a 400 gallon pond stocked with Koi and goldfish
for over a year, and everything has gone fantastic. Good water
quality, happy, tame fish. I guess it was beginners' luck . . .

Then, two weeks ago, one of my koi (a solid pale gold that I really
liked) died from mouth rot (as diagnosed by my local pond supply
place). A check of the water revealed that pH had climbed from 7.1 to
8.9 in a couple of months (the last time I had checked), which totally
blew me away.

Prior to the fish's death, there was a behavioral change. The fish had
all become very skittish, and no longer tame. The pond place said
there was possibly a bird-predator, and that, combined with the pH
increase, may have stressed the fish and increased susceptibility to
the disease.

The pond place told me to use this malachite green product and change
the water over the course of the 3 daily applications. I followed the
instructions to the letter, and retested the pH, which was now back
down to 7.0. I also added a tiny bit of salt (see my other post
regarding why I am worried about using salt). My friends kidded me
when I told them what I was doing . . . they said I'd end up with
Ceviche.

Anyhoo . . . My reason for posting is this: The fish seemed to respond
well to the treatment . . . they became more active and behaved
better. Then a week after the treatment, disaster struck and a second
koi died!

I am now at a loss as to what to do: Was the second death due to
merely the fact the animal was already too far gone and was doomed to
death anyways despite the treatment --- and therefore I need not worry
about the remaining fish? Or did it die because the treatment was
ineffectual at curing the problem, and are all my other fish at risk
--- and therefore I better do something . . . but what? If malachite
green didn't work, what do I do? Or am I over-reacting?

I presume that the disease was introduced with an infected fish that I
unknowingly introduced into the pond. If this is the case, how do I
treat incoming fish before putting them in the pond? Do I put a few
drops of Malachite Green product into the bag with water and fish in
it? If so, how many drops and how long do I delay introducing the fish
to the pond? I don't have any other water reservoirs to put new fish
into , so the only approach I can think of is keeping the fish in the
bag a couple of days?

I hope the experts in this forum can help!

Thanks!

D

wrote in message ...

First of all . . . Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate the
info!

[ . . . ]

any idea what was causing the pH climb? cement pond or blocks in the pond?

I have no idea, except that municipal water often varies in pH ---
perhaps the regular additiona of replacement water with occasional hi
pH was at fault? The pond has a ruber liner that is exposed on 4 of
the 5 sides of the pond. On one side, there is decorative slate tiling
that has been cemented into place. If this aspect was the culprit, why
would it take well over a year to show up?

what are your water quality parameters, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH?

The pond's water is perfect for all other criteria testable through
the standard kit: Ammonia, nitrities, chloramines and chlorine, and
virtually zero for salt. The pH is now back down to 7 and I am testing
constantly now. Nitrates is not one of the tests available to me
through the kit and the local pond place which has been guiding me,
also has not nitrate testing available.

I think the major problem is you got toxic water. GF and koi dont like sudden drops
in water temp, and I am not sure you are controlling the temp of your pond.

This is correct, I am not controlling the water temperature. However,
that having been said, the following 2 points need to be added: During
the time of the incidents, we were having a nice warm streak in the
70's and lower 80's so my guess is that a sudden temperature drop
would not account for this particular event. Alos, this is a near
frost free area on California, and temperatures never fall like they
do in other parts of the USA. My pond temperature remained naturally
between 45-50 all winter long and only fell and rose gradually (1 or 2
degrees per day) before and after that.


what kind of filtration and aeration do you have in this pond. how many koi and GF
do you have?


I have a pump that's rated for a pond twice this size (per my
contractor) and use a natural filtration (bio-filter) with regular
applications (14-day intervals) of the good bacteria flakes. I have 3
koi, 3 small goldfish, and one huge tadpole.

Thanks agin for your help!

D
Ingrid


(seed lover) wrote:
Background: I've had a 400 gallon pond stocked with Koi and goldfish
for over a year, and everything has gone fantastic. Good water
quality, happy, tame fish. I guess it was beginners' luck . . .

Then, two weeks ago, one of my koi (a solid pale gold that I really
liked) died from mouth rot (as diagnosed by my local pond supply
place). A check of the water revealed that pH had climbed from 7.1 to
8.9 in a couple of months (the last time I had checked), which totally
blew me away.

Prior to the fish's death, there was a behavioral change. The fish had
all become very skittish, and no longer tame. The pond place said
there was possibly a bird-predator, and that, combined with the pH
increase, may have stressed the fish and increased susceptibility to
the disease.

The pond place told me to use this malachite green product and change
the water over the course of the 3 daily applications. I followed the
instructions to the letter, and retested the pH, which was now back
down to 7.0. I also added a tiny bit of salt (see my other post
regarding why I am worried about using salt). My friends kidded me
when I told them what I was doing . . . they said I'd end up with
Ceviche.

Anyhoo . . . My reason for posting is this: The fish seemed to respond
well to the treatment . . . they became more active and behaved
better. Then a week after the treatment, disaster struck and a second
koi died!

I am now at a loss as to what to do: Was the second death due to
merely the fact the animal was already too far gone and was doomed to
death anyways despite the treatment --- and therefore I need not worry
about the remaining fish? Or did it die because the treatment was
ineffectual at curing the problem, and are all my other fish at risk
--- and therefore I better do something . . . but what? If malachite
green didn't work, what do I do? Or am I over-reacting?

I presume that the disease was introduced with an infected fish that I
unknowingly introduced into the pond. If this is the case, how do I
treat incoming fish before putting them in the pond? Do I put a few
drops of Malachite Green product into the bag with water and fish in
it? If so, how many drops and how long do I delay introducing the fish
to the pond? I don't have any other water reservoirs to put new fish
into , so the only approach I can think of is keeping the fish in the
bag a couple of days?

I hope the experts in this forum can help!

Thanks!

D



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"RichToyBox" wrote in message news:xwGgc.24003$ru4.20587@attbi_s52...

[ . . . ]

You did not give any information about the second fishes condition.

The second fish had a symetrical lesion on its left side. My roommate
discovered the dead fish while I was out of town, so I didn't
experience the event first hand.

It may be advisable to go to http://www.akca.org/ and see if there is a
local koi club and a contact.
Most of the koi clubs have a health hotline or koi health associate that is
willing to come and look at your fish and do the necessary microscopic
evaluation for any needed treatment. You also did not give specific
information on the ammonia level, nitrite level, KH or pH.

Your pond is pretty small for koi.

I guess I have to do some serious thinking about how to proceed,
vis-a-vis my pond population.

I have over 4000 gallons in my larger pond with about 25 koi that will
average close to 24 inches each. The rule can be violated with enough
filtration, but the smaller the pond, the faster it changes from good water
to poor water.

How do I make my pond filtration more agressive? What can I do to
retrofit the existing set up?


--
RichToyBox

(seed lover) wrote:
I have no idea, except that municipal water often varies in pH ---
... ahahhhhh. yeah, they add NaOH.

On one side, there is decorative slate tiling
that has been cemented into place. If this aspect was the culprit, why
would it take well over a year to show up?
........... run some water over it and collect it on the other side, pH it.

Nitrates is not one of the tests available to me
through the kit and the local pond place which has been guiding me,
also has not nitrate testing available.
...... nitrate is really important... it builds up if there isnt enough green stuff
growing and removing it.

I have a pump that's rated for a pond twice this size (per my
contractor) and use a natural filtration (bio-filter) with regular
applications (14-day intervals) of the good bacteria flakes. I have 3
koi, 3 small goldfish, and one huge tadpole.
......... stop adding the bacteria flakes. some of these bacterial additives produce
quite a bit of hydrogen sulfide. you really need to check the nitrates. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The first year on the big pond it was the filter of all filters, or so I
thought, a bubblebead. The next year, I was getting too much particulate,
that was clogging the filter too often, so I added a turbovortex, since
removed. The next year it was a regular vortex. Last year it was a larger
bead filter added. I also have a veggie filter, a trickle tower filter, and
up flow gravel filters on that one pond. The number of fish has increased
to about double, and the average size of the fish has doubled. That
translates into somewhere around 15 to 20 times the waste load that I had
when the pond was built.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"seed lover" wrote in message
om...
"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:xwGgc.24003$ru4.20587@attbi_s52...

[ . . . ]

You did not give any information about the second fishes condition.

The second fish had a symetrical lesion on its left side. My roommate
discovered the dead fish while I was out of town, so I didn't
experience the event first hand.

It may be advisable to go to http://www.akca.org/ and see if there is a
local koi club and a contact.
Most of the koi clubs have a health hotline or koi health associate that
is
willing to come and look at your fish and do the necessary microscopic
evaluation for any needed treatment. You also did not give specific
information on the ammonia level, nitrite level, KH or pH.

Your pond is pretty small for koi.

I guess I have to do some serious thinking about how to proceed,
vis-a-vis my pond population.

I have over 4000 gallons in my larger pond with about 25 koi that will
average close to 24 inches each. The rule can be violated with enough
filtration, but the smaller the pond, the faster it changes from good
water
to poor water.

How do I make my pond filtration more agressive? What can I do to
retrofit the existing set up?


--
RichToyBox

400 gallons is too small for koi--could part of it be stress on the fish?
Kirsten
"seed lover" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

This is my second post here, and is connected to my "salt in pond"
post I just submitted.

Background: I've had a 400 gallon pond stocked with Koi and goldfish
for over a year, and everything has gone fantastic. Good water
quality, happy, tame fish. I guess it was beginners' luck . . .

Then, two weeks ago, one of my koi (a solid pale gold that I really
liked) died from mouth rot (as diagnosed by my local pond supply
place). A check of the water revealed that pH had climbed from 7.1 to
8.9 in a couple of months (the last time I had checked), which totally
blew me away.

Prior to the fish's death, there was a behavioral change. The fish had
all become very skittish, and no longer tame. The pond place said
there was possibly a bird-predator, and that, combined with the pH
increase, may have stressed the fish and increased susceptibility to
the disease.

The pond place told me to use this malachite green product and change
the water over the course of the 3 daily applications. I followed the
instructions to the letter, and retested the pH, which was now back
down to 7.0. I also added a tiny bit of salt (see my other post
regarding why I am worried about using salt). My friends kidded me
when I told them what I was doing . . . they said I'd end up with
Ceviche.

Anyhoo . . . My reason for posting is this: The fish seemed to respond
well to the treatment . . . they became more active and behaved
better. Then a week after the treatment, disaster struck and a second
koi died!

I am now at a loss as to what to do: Was the second death due to
merely the fact the animal was already too far gone and was doomed to
death anyways despite the treatment --- and therefore I need not worry
about the remaining fish? Or did it die because the treatment was
ineffectual at curing the problem, and are all my other fish at risk
--- and therefore I better do something . . . but what? If malachite
green didn't work, what do I do? Or am I over-reacting?

I presume that the disease was introduced with an infected fish that I
unknowingly introduced into the pond. If this is the case, how do I
treat incoming fish before putting them in the pond? Do I put a few
drops of Malachite Green product into the bag with water and fish in
it? If so, how many drops and how long do I delay introducing the fish
to the pond? I don't have any other water reservoirs to put new fish
into , so the only approach I can think of is keeping the fish in the
bag a couple of days?

I hope the experts in this forum can help!

Thanks!

D

And let's not forget KH guys & gals. Check your pH in the early AM & late
PM if there is much of a change you don't have enough buffering to keep
that pH from swinging, another stressor to fish. A KH test and a box of
baking soda is all you need to fix buffering. (That doesn't mean dump in a
whole box. It means test and report here. ;o) ~ jan
~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?)