On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:14:47 GMT, "Crashj"
wrote:

Is that because of the new water you are putting in each time you flush, or
something else? Do you have to add dechlorinator?

The reason for adding Baking Soda? No, not because of the new water, (and
dechlor. is always wise when adding new) but something about the
pressurized system itself, beats the KH right out of the water. I'm sure it
is a chemistry related thing, but I can't tell you what or how.

I did send this question into the chemistry expert on the KHA board, so
I'll let you know. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:14:47 GMT, "Crashj"
wrote:

Is that because of the new water you are putting in each time you flush,
or
something else? Do you have to add dechlorinator?

The reason for adding Baking Soda? No, not because of the new water, (and
dechlor. is always wise when adding new) but something about the
pressurized system itself, beats the KH right out of the water. I'm sure
it
is a chemistry related thing, but I can't tell you what or how.

I did send this question into the chemistry expert on the KHA board, so
I'll let you know. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:14:47 GMT, "Crashj"
wrote:

Is that because of the new water you are putting in each time you flush,
or
something else? Do you have to add dechlorinator?

The reason for adding Baking Soda? No, not because of the new water, (and
dechlor. is always wise when adding new) but something about the
pressurized system itself, beats the KH right out of the water. I'm sure
it
is a chemistry related thing, but I can't tell you what or how.

I did send this question into the chemistry expert on the KHA board, so
I'll let you know. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Thanks for the chemistry explanation RTB, and is what was told to me by
those I asked, though they didn't have the reason why, nor had it come to
their attention, regarding pressurized systems using up the KH faster than
open gravity fed filters.

When you mentioned higher fish loads, I went Ah Ha, but than said, "Wait."
Case in point, one of our ponders started out with pressurized, and was
about ready to take out stock in Baking Soda the way he went thru it. He
has since converted to a gravity fed filter, and says it's a rare day that
he needs BSoda... and his fish have gotten bigger in the meantime. So there
has to be something directly to do with that type of filter, not the pond,
per se, imo. ~ jan

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:32:28 GMT, "RichToyBox" wrote:

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Thanks for the chemistry explanation RTB, and is what was told to me by
those I asked, though they didn't have the reason why, nor had it come to
their attention, regarding pressurized systems using up the KH faster than
open gravity fed filters.

When you mentioned higher fish loads, I went Ah Ha, but than said, "Wait."
Case in point, one of our ponders started out with pressurized, and was
about ready to take out stock in Baking Soda the way he went thru it. He
has since converted to a gravity fed filter, and says it's a rare day that
he needs BSoda... and his fish have gotten bigger in the meantime. So there
has to be something directly to do with that type of filter, not the pond,
per se, imo. ~ jan

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:32:28 GMT, "RichToyBox" wrote:

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Thanks for the chemistry explanation RTB, and is what was told to me by
those I asked, though they didn't have the reason why, nor had it come to
their attention, regarding pressurized systems using up the KH faster than
open gravity fed filters.

When you mentioned higher fish loads, I went Ah Ha, but than said, "Wait."
Case in point, one of our ponders started out with pressurized, and was
about ready to take out stock in Baking Soda the way he went thru it. He
has since converted to a gravity fed filter, and says it's a rare day that
he needs BSoda... and his fish have gotten bigger in the meantime. So there
has to be something directly to do with that type of filter, not the pond,
per se, imo. ~ jan

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:32:28 GMT, "RichToyBox" wrote:

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:wmcUc.22180$mD.10813@attbi_s02...
The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters.
trim Chem
The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand
for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

Great explanation, thanks.
--
Crashj

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:wmcUc.22180$mD.10813@attbi_s02...
The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters.
trim Chem
The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand
for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

Great explanation, thanks.
--
Crashj

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:wmcUc.22180$mD.10813@attbi_s02...
The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters.
trim Chem
The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand
for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

Great explanation, thanks.
--
Crashj

The Filtoclear as well as the Fishmate do NOT come with a pump. The
Oase comes with a 9 watt UV and I think Fishmate sells a model with
the UV included.

You'll have to buy a pump separately and connect to the filter using
tubing or PVC pipe.

I looked at the Fishmate also but I've learned that you get what you
pay for and decided to dish out the cash on the Oase.
- RL



"Gareee©" wrote in message ...
"Rich L" wrote in message
om...
I purchased an OASE filtoclear 3000 (pondliner.com) for my 1800 gallon
koi pond. ...


Does this need an additional pump, or is one built in? We were considering
the UV solution, and this kind of integrates a UV and a filter, so might
actually be worth the shell out of cash...

The Filtoclear as well as the Fishmate do NOT come with a pump. The
Oase comes with a 9 watt UV and I think Fishmate sells a model with
the UV included.

You'll have to buy a pump separately and connect to the filter using
tubing or PVC pipe.

I looked at the Fishmate also but I've learned that you get what you
pay for and decided to dish out the cash on the Oase.
- RL



"Gareee©" wrote in message ...
"Rich L" wrote in message
om...
I purchased an OASE filtoclear 3000 (pondliner.com) for my 1800 gallon
koi pond. ...


Does this need an additional pump, or is one built in? We were considering
the UV solution, and this kind of integrates a UV and a filter, so might
actually be worth the shell out of cash...

I just added a bead filter to my smaller pond this year. I have not found
that it needs any more baking soda than it used to require. I am very
diligent about measuring and maintaining a minimum of 100 ppm, but generally
don't measure how much I use. A 12 pound bag from the discount club is
cheap, and I dump in about 8 pounds into the larger pond and about 4 pounds
into the smaller pond and wait for the KH to fall, which could be 3 or 4
weeks. A veggie filter of the anacharis and other submerged plants will
actually increase the KH without addition of baking soda and help to
stabilize the pH significantly, but my koi love those types of veggies and
without a separate pond that form of filter would last only minutes.

--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Case in point, one of our ponders started out with pressurized, and was
about ready to take out stock in Baking Soda the way he went thru it. He
has since converted to a gravity fed filter, and says it's a rare day that
he needs BSoda... and his fish have gotten bigger in the meantime. So
there
has to be something directly to do with that type of filter, not the pond,
per se, imo. ~ jan

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:32:28 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to
nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with
CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand
for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I just added a bead filter to my smaller pond this year. I have not found
that it needs any more baking soda than it used to require. I am very
diligent about measuring and maintaining a minimum of 100 ppm, but generally
don't measure how much I use. A 12 pound bag from the discount club is
cheap, and I dump in about 8 pounds into the larger pond and about 4 pounds
into the smaller pond and wait for the KH to fall, which could be 3 or 4
weeks. A veggie filter of the anacharis and other submerged plants will
actually increase the KH without addition of baking soda and help to
stabilize the pH significantly, but my koi love those types of veggies and
without a separate pond that form of filter would last only minutes.

--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Case in point, one of our ponders started out with pressurized, and was
about ready to take out stock in Baking Soda the way he went thru it. He
has since converted to a gravity fed filter, and says it's a rare day that
he needs BSoda... and his fish have gotten bigger in the meantime. So
there
has to be something directly to do with that type of filter, not the pond,
per se, imo. ~ jan

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:32:28 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

The KH is consumed to an extent with all filters. The bacteria use the
carbonates to help with the digestion/conversion of ammonia to nitrite,
giving off a Hydrogen ion, and then in the conversion of nitrite to
nitrate,
2 Hydrogen ions are given off. These hydrogen ions are acid and they use
the carbonates to neutralize the acid and convert the hydrogen ions with
CO3
to CO2 and water. The pressurized filters, bead filters are generally
associated with heavier fish loads than the garden pond with smaller
filters, and therefore more food to be converted, more acid, more demand
for
carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent a pH crash.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I wish that I could have the submerged plants to provide some of my
buffering, but the fish would eat it all. Right now, I am using an upflow
filter of crushed oyster shell and baking soda.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:04:32 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

A veggie filter of the anacharis and other submerged plants will
actually increase the KH without addition of baking soda and help to
stabilize the pH significantly, but my koi love those types of veggies
and
without a separate pond that form of filter would last only minutes.

I envy your success at increasing KH with submerged plants and wonder
how do you anchor them to the bottom?

The reason I ask, is because I tried gravel and it became a bed of
yuck that had to be cleaned once a year and that got old about the
same time I did.

Regards,

Hal

Hal,

It sounds like your filter is working very well, and it does keep the large
debris out of the system. If you have enough limestone, as the pH starts to
drop, it will start to dissolve and buffer the pH. It is solid KH, and is
hard to measure with a test kit, since it is not in solution. If your pH is
relatively stable and you haven't crashed, you may have plenty of the
limestone. My importer uses oyster shell for the same purpose, and nearly
half of his filter chamber is filled with oyster shells. BTW his filters
are nearly as large as his tanks.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:18:36 GMT, "Richard E. Steele"
wrote:

I wish that I could have the submerged plants to provide some of my
buffering, but the fish would eat it all. Right now, I am using an
upflow
filter of crushed oyster shell and baking soda.

I'm crushed! I thought I was on the brink of discovering something
new and workable. I've been using garden lime for several years now
and a couple years ago I added lots of baking soda and gypsum to raise
the KH, but I created a great environment for string algae so I
stopped the baking soda and gypsum. The limestone stops dissolving
when the pH gets to 7.8 and my KH hardly gets up to 3 degrees. The
rainfall has become so acid, every time it rains I wonder if this
will be the incident that causes a pH crash. So far the limestone
seems to be preventing a crash, but my KH readings are way below 100
ppm. I could use some submerged plants.

The wood box that I built for a plant pond is beginning to rot and sag
so now I'm thinking about rebuilding it into two plant ponds, one for
floaters and one for submerged plants, but that still leaves the
problem of keeping the submerged plants from floating out and keeping
the bottom clean. When I took out the gravel out of the plant pond I
made a sweeper from a pipe I ran along one side of the bottom and it
seems to keep the bottom pretty clean. The only thing there after
several months is some empty black Japanese snail shells and the
clinging algae.

My filter isn't anything to brag about. It is, gravity flow, three
barrels the first made to circle the water and settle the heavy stuff,
the second has a few squares of 3/4 and 1/2 fence mesh backed by a
window screen which needs cleaning every week and the third contains
the pump, but my weekly readings are 0 ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

Regards,

Hal