Some time back I remember we had a discussion about frogs and frog song
and neighbors and legal issues

Some neighbors really hate it when frogs and toads show
up at our ponds and start their singing and courting.

Someone said that we, as pondowners, can not be held
liable for the noise that mother nature makes in our yards.
We can not be held accountable for mother nature showing up
and doing her thing.

I went back on google and found the post and it was someone
from Austraila.

Does anyone know? Can the city send you a threatening letter
about the noise that frogs or toads are making in your pond?
Is this an overall 'truth' in law? That we can not be held liable for
mother nature showing up? Or are some cities incredibly anal
about such things.

thanks for any help! This has become a concern of a friend of
mine.

I've looked up the frog and it is not a species of concern, drat.

kathy :-)

That's a tough one. It's in a dogs nature to bark .... and most towns
will hold the owner responsible for that. "Honest officer, I don't
know where they came from. They just showed up and started fooling
around in my pond."

--
some photos of my little puddle
http://community.webshots.com/user/hankpage1

"kathy" wrote in message
ps.com...
Some time back I remember we had a discussion about frogs and frog
song
and neighbors and legal issues

Some neighbors really hate it when frogs and toads show
up at our ponds and start their singing and courting.

Someone said that we, as pondowners, can not be held
liable for the noise that mother nature makes in our yards.
We can not be held accountable for mother nature showing up
and doing her thing.

I went back on google and found the post and it was someone
from Austraila.

Does anyone know? Can the city send you a threatening letter
about the noise that frogs or toads are making in your pond?
Is this an overall 'truth' in law? That we can not be held liable
for
mother nature showing up? Or are some cities incredibly anal
about such things.

thanks for any help! This has become a concern of a friend of
mine.

I've looked up the frog and it is not a species of concern, drat.

kathy :-)

I'm not an attorney but....

This would be covered under local ordinances and so would be different
for everyone. You cannot say that since you cannot control wildlife you
aren't responsible. Townships protect the rights of their citizens
and the values of their houses. If you create a public nuance or do
something to lower the value of surrounding homes then most certainly
the township would sue you under some ordnance (or enact one if you
****ed them off). Imagine if I left a rotting cow in my back yard and
then the area got swarmed by rats. Now whether or not frogs chirping is
a public nuance is up for debate. In rural America I HIGHLY doubt you'd
be in trouble (small number of ordnances). In suburban America you
might be in violation (crazy city folk control freaks move there and
make ordnances). In the city you probably are.

Now to your question, the neighbors can sue your friend in civil court
and if the noise is bad they could prossibly win. All they need to do
is convince the judge that your firend caused the noise (which they
did, they built a man made pond). They would however have to prove
damages if they wanted money which would be pretty hard, but they could
just ask the judge to make them remove the pond. Or the judge could
have a pond or like nature and tell the people to buzz off.



Sam

Thanks Hank and Sam for your responses!
The pond owner went out and catch a bunch of the males
last night. Poor little guys, they were just following what mother
nature told them to do.

kathy :-)

"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks Hank and Sam for your responses!
The pond owner went out and catch a bunch of the males
last night. Poor little guys, they were just following what mother
nature told them to do.

kathy :-)
=====================
I hope he relocated them and didn't perform the "monster mash" on them.
:-( This spring we have a lot less frogs for some reason. We didn't do
any spraying and have no real close neighbors. By now I usually see spawn
in the uncovered pools - but nothing! The last few nights I didn't even
hear the two that were calling for sweeties for the past few weeks. Maybe
another large snake moved in.... but then even the spring peepers at our
neighbor's stock pond were scarce this year.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

I hope he relocated them and didn't perform the "monster mash" on them.
:-( This spring we have a lot less frogs for some reason. We didn't do
any spraying and have no real close neighbors. By now I usually see spawn
in the uncovered pools - but nothing! The last few nights I didn't even
hear the two that were calling for sweeties for the past few weeks. Maybe
another large snake moved in.... but then even the spring peepers at our
neighbor's stock pond were scarce this year.

No, it is I, who apparently have neighbors not decent enough to talk
directly (or even send an unsigned personal letter) first. They went
straight to complaining to the city.

I caught 9 and a club member coming by for free baby koi took them to her
house. I think there are 3 left and I'm hoping that is good enough for
these people, may they get infected with West Nile, and choke on gnats all
summer. Bitter, me? No of course not.

Your comment about the snakes though, a cybersister said I need to put up a
note that says: Due to "someone" complaining about the frogs and the city
threatening me with fines, I have turned loose several LARGE, but quiet,
snakes to eat them. Please be advise to keep your small pets contained till
the noise problem is resolved. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Make sure you get the ordinance that they say you violated and read it.
Just because the city sent it doesnt mean that someone in the city
isn't reading the ordinance incorrectly. This happens all the time. Its
best to know your rights.

Sam

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I hope he relocated them and didn't perform the "monster mash" on them.
:-( This spring we have a lot less frogs for some reason. We didn't do
any spraying and have no real close neighbors. By now I usually see
spawn
in the uncovered pools - but nothing! The last few nights I didn't even
hear the two that were calling for sweeties for the past few weeks.
Maybe
another large snake moved in.... but then even the spring peepers at our
neighbor's stock pond were scarce this year.

No, it is I, who apparently have neighbors not decent enough to talk
directly (or even send an unsigned personal letter) first. They went
straight to complaining to the city.

## Arrrggggg! Don't ya just hate people like that? I must say the
neighbors I do have (we all have 1 to 5 acres so aren't too close) are
great. Not one complaint yet about the ponds, the frogs, lawn mowers, the
motorcycles... nothing. :-)

I caught 9 and a club member coming by for free baby koi took them to her
house. I think there are 3 left and I'm hoping that is good enough for
these people, may they get infected with West Nile, and choke on gnats all
summer. Bitter, me? No of course not.

## May the fleas of a thousand camels infest their crotch.

Your comment about the snakes though, a cybersister said I need to put up
a
note that says: Due to "someone" complaining about the frogs and the city
threatening me with fines, I have turned loose several LARGE, but quiet,
snakes to eat them. Please be advise to keep your small pets contained
till
the noise problem is resolved. ~ jan

## There you go! Uh, ....add CHILDREN to that. That should work....
LOL!!! :-D
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On or about 8 Apr 2005 16:02:13 -0700, "kathy" wrote
something like:
Some time back I remember we had a discussion about frogs and frog song
and neighbors and legal issues

Mostly you will find:
TWIAVBP
The world is a very big place
and it includes readers who are not in the United States, aka
Leftpondia. When you ask question here, remember people are from
everywhere.

IANAL
I am not a lawyer [but I have an an opinion sometimes based on
experience with the law.]

HJust a reminder . . .
Hope this helps.

--
Crashj

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Your comment about the snakes though, a cybersister said I need to put up
a note that says: Due to "someone" complaining about the frogs and the
city threatening me with fines, I have turned loose several LARGE, but
quiet, snakes to eat them. Please be advise to keep your small pets
contained till the noise problem is resolved. ~ jan

I like that...
--
derek

Make sure you get the ordinance that they say you violated and read it.
Just because the city sent it doesnt mean that someone in the city
isn't reading the ordinance incorrectly. This happens all the time. Its
best to know your rights.
Sam

The City Attorney attach it to the letter, and it mentions "animals" not
pets and the word "harboring" which I guess would be having a place for
said animals to hang out and make noise. Course I wonder if this
"harboring" would also include the evergreen trees the noisy magpies so
love to make nests in and they can be very early risers in the AM. Would
people have to harass the magpies to leave, or chop down their trees, if
someone complained?

To give an update on my situation. I delivered, as one friend said, a
tactful, yet educational letter, to my neighbors within ear shot of the
pond. Since it went out I have heard from 4 neighbors in positive support.
One of which sent me such a wonderfully worded E-mail I ask, and he
consented, to let me send it to the City Attorney's office. I would really
like to see them reconsider taking the time & money to bother people about
native species when the complainers haven't done all they could to alieve
the situation without involving the authorities. The results would have
been the same whether it was a simple note on my door or an official letter
from the CA's office. I would have removed frogs to lower the volume.

Course I am one who is going to take it to the limit, as far as keeping as
many as I can before peopled are "bothered". That "magic" number I will
work towards next year. Since I removed 9 of 12, I'm hoping I could at
least keep 6, since 3 hardly croak enough, most likely because they are too
"busy". But dang, I bet I've made them the happiest frogs on the planet
this summer. beg ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~