Hello all. I am hoping you might be kind enough to give me a little
advice. I just dug a 19'x10'x2.5' hole that I would like to turn into a
pond to house common goldfish and aquatic plants. I have a pond that
was built by someone else and is basically a liner, pump, and hose to
the top of a waterfall. My existing pond seems to maintain good health
and requires a drain and clean aprox. once a year to remove built up
muck. I am interested in how effective a skimmer is in eliminating an
annual drain and clean and if Firestone epdm roof liner (I can buy Pond
Guard liner on line for about $.50 a foot with shipping and the roof
liner for $.37 per including tax locally, Pond guard $.95+9% per
locally) can be used. I was also told roofing felt was a good
underlayment. I would like to save where I can, but also not skimp on
quality if the difference in cost is close. So I guess my questions
are;

1. What type of liner 45mil or 60mil, roof or pond epdm? Roofing felt?

2. Filter such as skimmer effective and or necessary?

3. Pump brand recomendations ( pond is 2500 to 3000 gal. with a 20 ft.
run to a 3 ft. tall waterfall)?

4. Does any one know of a reasonably priced supplier in the New Orleans
area? I've tried the usual suspects and liner is is 100% higher, pumps
50% higher than the internet.

Thanks in advance

I would go with the heavier liner IMHO, as it is less prone to
puncture, but its a bit harder to work with. Used carpeting makes a
good base for the liner, just make sure there is no carpet tacks in
it. Usually you can get it free from places that do carpet
installations and sales. Gives it a good cushion. Then again vermin
and bugs may propagate around it, where roofing felt (tar paper)
would not attract as many insects, but lots of folks use old carpeting
for a subliner.

There are lots of places online that has good prices.....Even Home
Depots prices are cheaper than most local pond supply places here.

Here is an email address to a fellow that has some super great prices
on quality pond products and he will stand by his products and
company. His prices are great considering what a lot of places charge.

or
303-934-3200 monday-friday 8am to 5pm mountain time
Phone is the best way as he is kept pretty busy, and his shipping
time is short.

IIRC his 40 mil EDPM liner is about 29 cents a sq foot......his
Surepro pumps are eqaual to a Sequence and cost less, and he has all
the top brands of associated UV's, filters, skimmers, waterfalls,
submersible pumps and fittings like ball and knife valves..

Ask for Darron...He is a Horizon dealer, which is a major player in
the pond supply business. If there is a Horizon dealer in your state
he can not ship to you, but I think your state is ok, as it was not
listed as a state he can not ship to. Tellhim you seen his ads on
Koiphen.com which is another pond / koi forum.



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

For underlayment, one of the best is carpet or carpet pad, and you can
usually get all you want by doing a little dumpster diving behind a carpet
store, with their permission, of course. As for the liner, several on here
have used roof liner, one of my pond club members used roof liner, and I
have never heard anyone say that they had any problems. The need for a
skimmer and bottom drain is one of convenience. With a good skimmer and
bottom drain, there should never be a need to drain and clean a pond, unless
you or one of your fish knock over a plant basket of gravel. For that size
pond, my recommendation would be to have an external pump, such as a
Sequence, since they tend to be more energy efficient at the high flow
rates. Though PondMaster makes some pretty good size submersable pumps, and
they are very good. As for price, there are a few places on the internet
that have really good prices and service, which is generally lacking at the
local fish store.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"nortyler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello all. I am hoping you might be kind enough to give me a little
advice. I just dug a 19'x10'x2.5' hole that I would like to turn into a
pond to house common goldfish and aquatic plants. I have a pond that
was built by someone else and is basically a liner, pump, and hose to
the top of a waterfall. My existing pond seems to maintain good health
and requires a drain and clean aprox. once a year to remove built up
muck. I am interested in how effective a skimmer is in eliminating an
annual drain and clean and if Firestone epdm roof liner (I can buy Pond
Guard liner on line for about $.50 a foot with shipping and the roof
liner for $.37 per including tax locally, Pond guard $.95+9% per
locally) can be used. I was also told roofing felt was a good
underlayment. I would like to save where I can, but also not skimp on
quality if the difference in cost is close. So I guess my questions
are;

1. What type of liner 45mil or 60mil, roof or pond epdm? Roofing felt?

2. Filter such as skimmer effective and or necessary?

3. Pump brand recomendations ( pond is 2500 to 3000 gal. with a 20 ft.
run to a 3 ft. tall waterfall)?

4. Does any one know of a reasonably priced supplier in the New Orleans
area? I've tried the usual suspects and liner is is 100% higher, pumps
50% higher than the internet.

Thanks in advance

We got the 45 edpm for about 20 cents here in Jackson. Heavier always
is less vulnerable and yet heavier. We are using roof liner...no problem.

Veggie filter is a good, easy way to handle muck and nitrites. Skimmer
helps the top, bottom drain VERY useful to remove muck instead of having
to clean the pond.

Magnetic pumps are better than heavy mechanical.

nortyler wrote:
Hello all. I am hoping you might be kind enough to give me a little
advice. I just dug a 19'x10'x2.5' hole that I would like to turn into a
pond to house common goldfish and aquatic plants. I have a pond that
was built by someone else and is basically a liner, pump, and hose to
the top of a waterfall. My existing pond seems to maintain good health
and requires a drain and clean aprox. once a year to remove built up
muck. I am interested in how effective a skimmer is in eliminating an
annual drain and clean and if Firestone epdm roof liner (I can buy Pond
Guard liner on line for about $.50 a foot with shipping and the roof
liner for $.37 per including tax locally, Pond guard $.95+9% per
locally) can be used. I was also told roofing felt was a good
underlayment. I would like to save where I can, but also not skimp on
quality if the difference in cost is close. So I guess my questions
are;

1. What type of liner 45mil or 60mil, roof or pond epdm? Roofing felt?

2. Filter such as skimmer effective and or necessary?

3. Pump brand recomendations ( pond is 2500 to 3000 gal. with a 20 ft.
run to a 3 ft. tall waterfall)?

4. Does any one know of a reasonably priced supplier in the New Orleans
area? I've tried the usual suspects and liner is is 100% higher, pumps
50% higher than the internet.

Thanks in advance

Thanks for the input,

I have a few quick questions about external vs. submersable pumps and
filters.

1. Does an external pump need some sort of pump house (cover) to keep
it out of the weather?

2. Do the leaf strainers that come with external pumps collect leaves
or do they just keep the leaves out of the pump? Do the strainers sit
on the bottom of the pond and if they do will they pull the muck
through an external filter(ie veggie, waterfall)or do you need some
other device?

3. Are there different types of bottom drains? When looking throuh the
internet adds there seemed to be what was like a conventional drain and
also a device that sat on the bottom and connected to a skimmer.

I probably will start with just a pump and would like to add a filter
of some sort. I don't know if I have room for a veggie filter. How good
are waterfall filters?



Thanks,

Nort

On 19 Apr 2005 06:18:45 -0700, "nortyler" wrote:

===Thanks for the input,
===
===I have a few quick questions about external vs. submersable pumps and
===filters.
===
===1. Does an external pump need some sort of pump house (cover) to keep
===it out of the weather?

Yes, most have to have some sort of house or cover over them. If your
water table is high enough you can use a large plastic water meter box
deal, and I have seem some folks use a large rubber maid type chest,
and othrs that just set a bucket over some pumps.....Just need to
keeop the rain out of the motor. Externals for the mopst part are much
more energy efficient than a submersible type.
===
===2. Do the leaf strainers that come with external pumps collect leaves
===or do they just keep the leaves out of the pump? Do the strainers sit
===on the bottom of the pond and if they do will they pull the muck
===through an external filter(ie veggie, waterfall)or do you need some
===other device?

Basically both......Strainers are mainly used to catch larger debri so
it does not block or damage the pump... Most are installed just
forward of the pumps wetend. SOme folks have a strainer that sets
directly in the pond on the bottom....Pros and cons to having it on
the ponds bottom, as it will be more trouble to clean when it gets
clogged up, that one mounted infront of a external pump where all yo
ned to do is shut off pump remove strainer basket cover, clean basket
and reinstall etc etc. Its best to have a pump with as little
restriction on the suction line as possible. A strainer does not add
much if any to a pumps suction unless it gets dirty.......
===
===3. Are there different types of bottom drains? When looking throuh the
===internet adds there seemed to be what was like a conventional drain and
===also a device that sat on the bottom and connected to a skimmer.

Not familiar with bottom drains as I do not have em in a natural pond,
but you want a bottom drain with a sort of debri cover or dome from
what I understand
===
===I probably will start with just a pump and would like to add a filter
===of some sort. I don't know if I have room for a veggie filter. How good
===are waterfall filters?
===
===
===
===Thanks,
===
===Nort


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Roy took care of questions one and two. For three, there are several
different bottom drains, and some homemade equivalents. Most have an
antivortex cover over the bottom drain to make the drain sweep an area of
the bottom, rather than creating a small vortex that pulls the water from
the top. Some of the bottom drains are through the liner, and a lot of
people are afraid of putting a hole in the bottom of the pond for fear that
it might leak. These tend to be the best, since they are 3 or 4 inch pipe
drains. There are a couple of retro fit bottom drains that can be used that
sit on the bottom, and use pipe within the pond that can come up and over
the side of the pond, therefore no holes. My drain is a through the wall,
about 8 inches down from the water line, and then down to the deepest part
of the pond. If mine were to create a catastrophic failure, I would lose
maybe a foot of water from a 3.5 foot deep pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"nortyler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the input,

I have a few quick questions about external vs. submersable pumps and
filters.

1. Does an external pump need some sort of pump house (cover) to keep
it out of the weather?

2. Do the leaf strainers that come with external pumps collect leaves
or do they just keep the leaves out of the pump? Do the strainers sit
on the bottom of the pond and if they do will they pull the muck
through an external filter(ie veggie, waterfall)or do you need some
other device?

3. Are there different types of bottom drains? When looking throuh the
internet adds there seemed to be what was like a conventional drain and
also a device that sat on the bottom and connected to a skimmer.

I probably will start with just a pump and would like to add a filter
of some sort. I don't know if I have room for a veggie filter. How good
are waterfall filters?



Thanks,

Nort

Thanks Roy, Rich ToyBox, Phyllis and Jim.
Your answers and advice were very helpful. I ended up ordering epdm ,
external pump, and a strainer from Darron at Horizon(He had the best
price I found.). The local roofing supply places did not sell epdm for
the most part and the ones that did were cheaper than the local water
garden places, but only beat the net's Pond Guard price by about 10
bucks (for 20'x30'). I guess there are not a lot of flat roofs
here. In any case the price difference was not enough to take what I
know is a small chance that the roofing stuff would be toxic.
I will probably order a skimmer and waterfall filter sometime soon,
unless I turn up a homemade solution that will fit my situation.

Thanks again,

Nort

IIRC the pumps he sells are Sure Pro or something like that. They are
"IDENTICAL" to Sequence brand pumps in every way with two
exceptions.......much cheaper, and 2 year warranty instead of three,
but for the price its more than worth it. Even Sequence seals will
fit........From what I heard, These pumps are made with the same exact
mold / tooling as is Sequence, same specs 110% of the way. Which
reminds me, I need to order a pump so I better give him a call before
its too late.

On 20 Apr 2005 06:02:11 -0700, "nortyler" wrote:

===Thanks Roy, Rich ToyBox, Phyllis and Jim.
===Your answers and advice were very helpful. I ended up ordering epdm ,
===external pump, and a strainer from Darron at Horizon(He had the best
===price I found.). The local roofing supply places did not sell epdm for
===the most part and the ones that did were cheaper than the local water
===garden places, but only beat the net's Pond Guard price by about 10
===bucks (for 20'x30'). I guess there are not a lot of flat roofs
===here. In any case the price difference was not enough to take what I
===know is a small chance that the roofing stuff would be toxic.
===I will probably order a skimmer and waterfall filter sometime soon,
===unless I turn up a homemade solution that will fit my situation.
===
===Thanks again,
===
===Nort


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Firestone roof membrane....

Our pond is now coming into it's fourth summer and we used USED Firestone
roof membrane off the roof of the plant where my husband works. COST - $
00000. Gave it a good power wash and plunked it in the hole. We did line
with carpet scraps and thick wads of newspaper in some spots. There were
about a zillion roots we cut off digging the hole and absolutely no problems
to date with any punctures.

It is thick, heavy and not easy to shape in tiny places but very tough. I
can stand on a pointed shovel and not even dent the stuff.

I would not hesitate to scam some more from a roofer and use it again.

Heather



"nortyler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello all. I am hoping you might be kind enough to give me a little
advice. I just dug a 19'x10'x2.5' hole that I would like to turn into a
pond to house common goldfish and aquatic plants. I have a pond that
was built by someone else and is basically a liner, pump, and hose to
the top of a waterfall. My existing pond seems to maintain good health
and requires a drain and clean aprox. once a year to remove built up
muck. I am interested in how effective a skimmer is in eliminating an
annual drain and clean and if Firestone epdm roof liner (I can buy Pond
Guard liner on line for about $.50 a foot with shipping and the roof
liner for $.37 per including tax locally, Pond guard $.95+9% per
locally) can be used. I was also told roofing felt was a good
underlayment. I would like to save where I can, but also not skimp on
quality if the difference in cost is close. So I guess my questions
are;

1. What type of liner 45mil or 60mil, roof or pond epdm? Roofing felt?

2. Filter such as skimmer effective and or necessary?

3. Pump brand recomendations ( pond is 2500 to 3000 gal. with a 20 ft.
run to a 3 ft. tall waterfall)?

4. Does any one know of a reasonably priced supplier in the New Orleans
area? I've tried the usual suspects and liner is is 100% higher, pumps
50% higher than the internet.

Thanks in advance