Just this week I found several galls on one rose and spent some time
researching online. I believe this is a bacterial gall, not a wasp. The plant
is infected from the bacteria which comes from the ground. General consensus
seems to be get rid of the plant right away, disinfect all pruning tools,
replace the soil and don't replant for at least five years. Wow!

Here are some links I found:
http://www.gardenguides.com/articles/rosediseasesbv.htm
http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/roses/disease-disease.html
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/BP/BP-26.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/not...in002.htm#CROW
NGALLtarget

I haven't removed the rose yet. It stands alone, several feet from any other
roses, and if removed I wouldn't replant in that location anyway. So far I
haven't noticed anything unusual about the performance execpt for some dieback
of the smaller growth. And that isn't very unusual for this large climber.
There are at least 6-8 galls I've found so far, including the crown. Cutting
away part isn't an option. So for now, I'll let it stand and watch it.

Wasn't it Cass who recently said she had POed the rose gods. I don't think
she's the only one!

Julie

"Unique Too" wrote in message


Wasn't it Cass who recently said she had POed the rose gods. I don't
think
she's the only one!

Julie

Hello Julie,

No she is not the only one, believe me!
We have been fighting a fierce battle with
a new strain of botrytis, cercospora and
black spot. Other than that...

We had a gorgeous show for about one week
that tickled the pride and made us forget about
the deer. In one single swoop they cleaned up
the entire beds on the East side and demolished
some once bloomers we were eagerly awaiting
to see. Since some of them were first time
bloomers in our garden and we are keeping
track of performance we had just counted some
of the buds in the newer plants. Some had as
many as thirty and yet they managed to eat
everything, and what they didn't munch
they just broke and left on the ground.

I never thought I will hate any living creature.
I have found differently. Anyway, if what your
rose has is indeed bacterial gall there is little
or nothing you can do to save the plant. However,
that said I have been successful before by cutting
some of the galls with a very sharp Japanese saw
(like the kind used for bonsai) and then used a
brush to brush pure Clorox on the cut. If the
galls are superficial ( I mean not inside the root
system only ) you still can try to do that.

The soil indeed is infected with the bacteria,
but there are many ways to clean it including
replacing the actual soil and laying it fallow
but you don't need to wait five years. Some
of the info available is nearly ten years old
so take it with a grain of salt. In the old days
we used Gallex® but it was discontinued way
back in 1991. I guess it was just as bad as the
bacteria it was trying to get rid of.

Did I miss which rose it is except for being
a climber? How old is it? And why do you
think that cutting some of the galls is out of
the question? At any rate I hope you can
find a solution without having to worry about
the other roses...

Allegra

In article , Unique Too
wrote:

Just this week I found several galls on one rose and spent some time
researching online. I believe this is a bacterial gall, not a wasp. The
plant
is infected from the bacteria which comes from the ground. General consensus
seems to be get rid of the plant right away, disinfect all pruning tools,
replace the soil and don't replant for at least five years. Wow!

Here are some links I found:
http://www.gardenguides.com/articles/rosediseasesbv.htm
http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/roses/disease-disease.html
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/BP/BP-26.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/not...in002.htm#CROW
NGALLtarget

I haven't removed the rose yet. It stands alone, several feet from any other
roses, and if removed I wouldn't replant in that location anyway. So far I
haven't noticed anything unusual about the performance execpt for some dieback
of the smaller growth. And that isn't very unusual for this large climber.
There are at least 6-8 galls I've found so far, including the crown. Cutting
away part isn't an option. So for now, I'll let it stand and watch it.

Naw, don't do it. Don't be passive. Nuke it. Crown gall and any kind of
canker are bad. You're wasting good growing time for a new plant....I
think you'd better go shopping for a replacement....right now. I
keep thinking my cankered plants are going to outgrow it, but they
don't. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle, which really ticks me
off, btw, and doesn't do much for my sunny disposition. Plants that
grow backwards....that's just a poor reflection on my horticultural
skills and I take it personally.

Wasn't it Cass who recently said she had POed the rose gods. I don't think
she's the only one!

Rats! I'm not even going to say that I haven't seen.......I just figure
that sooner or later everyone will see everything on their roses.
Builds character. Hey, look at the bright side. We haven't had the
lightning strike yet.

Cass writes:

Naw, don't do it. Don't be passive. Nuke it. Crown gall and any kind of
canker are bad. You're wasting good growing time for a new plant....I
think you'd better go shopping for a replacement....right now. I

And I suppose you have in mind just the rose I should replace it with?
I really don't think I'll replant in thei location. This one looks pretty, but
isn't worth the work keeping it inbounds. Having a rose climb a palm tree
sounds good, in reality, it's a LOT of work. I've spent days tying this one
up, trimming it back, trying to keep it in shape. And I come out looking like
a lost a fight with my cat. I guess it's my lazy side showing here.

keep thinking my cankered plants are going to outgrow it, but they
don't. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle, which really ticks me
off, btw, and doesn't do much for my sunny disposition. Plants that
grow backwards....that's just a poor reflection on my horticultural
skills and I take it personally.


But this one still looks good, if you don't look at the canes to closely. And
only rosarians would do that. Neighbors think it's beautiful. If this stuff
won't spread, I'll wait until it starts reflecting my gardening ability. When
they look bad, they're much easier to remove. It's awfully hard to dig up a
plant that looks this good.
And I don't have a sunny disposition so no harm done there.

Wasn't it Cass who recently said she had POed the rose gods. I don't think
she's the only one!

Rats! I'm not even going to say that I haven't seen.......I just figure
that sooner or later everyone will see everything on their roses.
Builds character. Hey, look at the bright side. We haven't had the
lightning strike yet.

We are all gaining lots of character this year. I still don't have deer or JBs
(yet). And I DID knock on wood.

Julie

Allegra, It's good to see you again. I've missed your posts. I want to thank
you for suggestion to someone else the diagnosis of cersospora. I started
looking and it fits what ails my Pink Pet and White Pet. It isn't the problem
that blackspot is here, but at least now I know the disease. I knew it looked
different, but could quite figure it out.

"Allegra" writes:

No she is not the only one, believe me!
We have been fighting a fierce battle with
a new strain of botrytis, cercospora and
black spot. Other than that...


I guess this hasn't been a good year for any of us! But we must look on the
brightside - I don't have JBs or deer!

We had a gorgeous show for about one week
that tickled the pride and made us forget about
the deer. In one single swoop they cleaned up
the entire beds on the East side and demolished
some once bloomers we were eagerly awaiting
to see. Since some of them were first time
bloomers in our garden and we are keeping
track of performance we had just counted some
of the buds in the newer plants. Some had as
many as thirty and yet they managed to eat
everything, and what they didn't munch
they just broke and left on the ground.


How awful! Especially the once bloomers you haven't even seen. I think I can
understand your hatred. They are beautiful creatures, but so very destructive.
I'm thankful I don't have them to with in this area.

I never thought I will hate any living creature.
I have found differently. Anyway, if what your
rose has is indeed bacterial gall there is little
or nothing you can do to save the plant. However,
that said I have been successful before by cutting
some of the galls with a very sharp Japanese saw
(like the kind used for bonsai) and then used a
brush to brush pure Clorox on the cut. If the
galls are superficial ( I mean not inside the root
system only ) you still can try to do that.

The soil indeed is infected with the bacteria,
but there are many ways to clean it including
replacing the actual soil and laying it fallow
but you don't need to wait five years. Some
of the info available is nearly ten years old
so take it with a grain of salt. In the old days
we used Gallex® but it was discontinued way
back in 1991. I guess it was just as bad as the
bacteria it was trying to get rid of.

Did I miss which rose it is except for being
a climber? How old is it? And why do you
think that cutting some of the galls is out of
the question? At any rate I hope you can
find a solution without having to worry about
the other roses...

I may not have said, it's Reve d'Or that's affected. It's been in the gound
three, maybe four years, and just this year has really started looking great.
It's planted at the base of a palm tree and has grown to the top and cascaded
down the sides. This year it has put on a non-stop show of blooms for the
first time.
I haven't looked at any roots to see if they are also involved, but I must
wonder. The rose still looks really good, but there are so many galls I can
see, I don't know how the roots could not be affected.
I don't think it would be worth even trying to cut out the galls. It would
involve removing several of the main canes very close to the ground. On these
canes the galls are too large and involve to much of the cane to cut out.
There wouldn't be enough cane left to support the growth above. And the work
it would entail to remove all the branches above would not be worthwhile. The
canes are wrapped around the tree, up thru the tree and mixed in with the palm
fronds. I'm sure this rose will more than fill one truck, at least two, maybe
three. It's large, very large. If I start cutting, it will all go. Too much
work, not worth the effort to *maybe* save the rose.
Will the bacteria travel thrugh the ground? Should the rose be removed to
prevent the spread of disese to the other roses? I assumed it was pretty
location specific, but I could be wrong. (Certainly won't be the first or
last time!) If it won't spread I'm going to leave it. Let it decline and then
start working on removal.

Julie

"Unique Too" wrote in

Allegra, It's good to see you again. I've missed your posts. I want to
thank
you for suggestion to someone else the diagnosis of cersospora. I started
looking and it fits what ails my Pink Pet and White Pet. It isn't the
problem
that blackspot is here, but at least now I know the disease. I knew it
looked
different, but could quite figure it out.

Hello Julie,

Good to talk to you as well; I am sorry about the
cercospora. It is a real trial around this year. We
had just about everything including the blue ice ;)

Things are looking up tho. The back beds are almost
done and our friend Paul Barden has given me a couple
of gorgeous roses he has created to study which makes
my days all the more pleasant out in the garden. The roses
are recuperating slowly from the attack and some are
beginning to bloom again. Today we were mesmerized
by Jude the Obscure, Mary Magdalene and Arrillaga.
They are close by together and the combination, albeit
accidental turned out to be one of those Flemish paintings.
We ended bringing Jude inside, with some old fashion
sweet peas and the house smells like heaven must.

I agree with you about leaving the rose be. Once I heard
an old rosarian in Scotland say that when a rose "knows"
she is going to die she blooms to exhaustion and then she
goes. It may be the case with yours, and she may give you
a year or so of good blooms still. The problem with gall is
that eventually, literally it chokes the plant to death. It girdles
the canes till no auxin signals can be found anywhere within
the tissue and naturally the plant dies.

Some people have found that Agri-strep or a copper
compound like Kocide can help if you can get rid of the
gall early enough, but in your case if it is so far gone
I will do what you are doing. That said, I will try and
clean the soil as much as possible where the rose is
planted. The bacteria has been known to have a life
span of two to four years, and if you do anything to
the rose, buy a cheap set of secateurs to do it with
and leave your normal pruners out of the mix.

The reason I am suggesting this is because the bacteria can be
transmitted when using contaminated pruners as a vector
to your healthy roses. I have found that having to continually
clean the Felcos with Clorox renders them dull and flat. I
assume it would do the same to any other tool.

For that reason I am suggesting just in case you forget where
your pruners have been to get one and keep it by the palm
tree somewhere hidden there to use only with that rose.
What a pity! and what a waste...But you are wise not to
plant another rose there. In our group we had a discussion
not too long ago when I described getting our two New Dawns
back into the fence after the fence was re-stained and I compared
it with wrestling alligators in the nude. That was a couple of weeks
ago and I still have the scars to prove it!

Will the bacteria travel through the ground? Should the rose be removed
to
prevent the spread of disese to the other roses? I assumed it was pretty
location specific, but I could be wrong. (Certainly won't be the first
or
last time!) If it won't spread I'm going to leave it. Let it decline and
then
start working on removal.

This has been a matter of discussion and/or dissent ever
since I started growing roses. There are those who swear
that it does, and others who swear that it doesn't.
That the transmission is only effected by manual vectoring.
I have a tendency to believe that it stays within a radius of
10 feet from the affected rose. Nothing scientific here, but
I dealt with a bad case years ago where a gorgeous Anna
de Diesbach got it badly. She sat rather regally in the middle
of that bed, and only the closest to her ended showing symptoms.
Both ends of the bed were clean, never a problem, nothing shown.

It may have been a fluke, but only four other roses began to
show the problem and so I ended cutting the galls, painting the
whole thing with Clorox and washing the roots (the galls were
only on the canes, none on the roots) uprooted every rose in
that bed, and disposed of the soil in a non-planting area after
dousing it consistently with Clorox six or seven times in one
week. I guess it was the cleanest, safest pile of dirt in the entire
West Coast for at least that week ;)

Good luck my dear; I am sure your rose was a thing of beauty.
There is something so romantic and wild about a rose climbing
a tree! Our E. Veyrat Hermanos is now approaching the old
12 foot stump from the upper deck. Nex summer I am sure it
will descend like a curtain of petals to our delight and that of
the hummingbirds that feed right next to it.

I will send you a photo when it happens, I promise.

Allegra

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:05:49 GMT, "Allegra"
wrote:

Will the bacteria travel through the ground? Should the rose be removed
to
prevent the spread of disese to the other roses? I assumed it was pretty
location specific, but I could be wrong. (Certainly won't be the first
or
last time!) If it won't spread I'm going to leave it. Let it decline and
then
start working on removal.

This has been a matter of discussion and/or dissent ever
since I started growing roses. There are those who swear
that it does, and others who swear that it doesn't.
That the transmission is only effected by manual vectoring.
I have a tendency to believe that it stays within a radius of
10 feet from the affected rose. Nothing scientific here, but
I dealt with a bad case years ago where a gorgeous Anna
de Diesbach got it badly. She sat rather regally in the middle
of that bed, and only the closest to her ended showing symptoms.
Both ends of the bed were clean, never a problem, nothing shown.

I discussed this very issue with the main gardener at Edmunds Roses.
He claims that the bacteria is ever-present in many soils but that
most of the time, it isn't activated or doesn't get the chance to
infect the plant. So, he's not all that sure that sterilization or
even quarantine does a lot of good. So, there might not be a lot of
worry about spreading, since, if you get it in the first place, it's
probbly everywhere in your soil anyway. Just be careful about nicking
the other plants at crown level, since that's the main event of
opporunity that allows gall to start.

He also said that he keeps some 40 galled roses out of the 800 that he
grows as evidence that it doesn't have to be an immediate killer. He
says that some of them are quite impressive. He also realizes that it
will probably eventually weaken the plant, but some of them have been
around for over 10 years with gall.

Just thought I'd share this anecdotal info.

"dave weil" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:05:49 GMT, "Allegra"
wrote:


I discussed this very issue with the main gardener at Edmunds Roses.
He claims that the bacteria is ever-present in many soils but that
most of the time, it isn't activated or doesn't get the chance to
infect the plant. So, he's not all that sure that sterilization or
even quarantine does a lot of good. So, there might not be a lot of
worry about spreading, since, if you get it in the first place, it's
probbly everywhere in your soil anyway. Just be careful about nicking
the other plants at crown level, since that's the main event of
opporunity that allows gall to start.

He also said that he keeps some 40 galled roses out of the 800 that he
grows as evidence that it doesn't have to be an immediate killer. He
says that some of them are quite impressive. He also realizes that it
will probably eventually weaken the plant, but some of them have been
around for over 10 years with gall.

Just thought I'd share this anecdotal info.

Curious choice, knowing that the pathogen spreads
with the usage of tools and it has been proven to
be vectored through infected rootstock accidentally
- see the following link- as discussed at the III International
Symposium on Rose Research and Cultivation

" This study represents the first demonstration that
the exponential spread of crown gall disease in Mediterranean
rose cultures is due: to the vegetative propagation of rootstocks,
to the frequent exchange of plant material between professional
breeders, multipliers and grafters, and to the increasing turnover
rates for flower production. As an efficient chemical or genetic
control of the disease will not be applicable in the near future,
a further propagation of disease can be reduced only through
selection of healthy rootstocks. "

http://www.actahort.org/books/547/547_9.htm

Since symptoms of the disease are slow to show it would seem
a dangerous thing to do, and one suspects that the transmission
can be effected to other roses that may very well leave their garden
being infected without them knowing it and end in someone else's
garden where they would take residence in the soil awaiting a
single puncture from any source to infect a healthy plant.

It makes for very interesting reading to check different sources
particularly now on the Web. In the old days it was the library,
the colleges' libraries and a trip down to Eugene if you wanted
to find the papers. The folklore was always available.

Allegra

In article , dave weil
writes:

I discussed this very issue with the main gardener at Edmunds Roses.
He claims that the bacteria is ever-present in many soils but that
most of the time, it isn't activated or doesn't get the chance to
infect the plant. So, he's not all that sure that sterilization or
even quarantine does a lot of good. So, there might not be a lot of
worry about spreading, since, if you get it in the first place, it's
probbly everywhere in your soil anyway. Just be careful about nicking
the other plants at crown level, since that's the main event of
opporunity that allows gall to start.

He also said that he keeps some 40 galled roses out of the 800 that he
grows as evidence that it doesn't have to be an immediate killer. He
says that some of them are quite impressive. He also realizes that it
will probably eventually weaken the plant, but some of them have been
around for over 10 years with gall.

Just thought I'd share this anecdotal info.

Dave,
Thanks for this information. Very interesting indeed. I would have thought a
nursery of this reputation would have discarded these roses quickly. This may
say alot about the spread or lack thereof of this disease. Maybe in ten years,
I'll still have Reve d'Or in the same palm tree. Somehow I don't think so, but
it does give me hope.
Julie

Allegra, Thanks for all the valuable information! The links you provided in
separtate posts to me and Dave both contain a lot of good information on galls.

Things are looking up tho. The back beds are almost
done and our friend Paul Barden has given me a couple
of gorgeous roses he has created to study which makes
my days all the more pleasant out in the garden..

If Paul's roses are half as good as his photos, you will have some beauties
there! Every time I visit his sight, I find more roses to put on my "wish
list." You'll have to keep up posted on how they perform and if any of them
are introduced. Your lucky to consider him a friend.

I agree with you about leaving the rose be. Once I heard
an old rosarian in Scotland say that when a rose "knows"
she is going to die she blooms to exhaustion and then she
goes. It may be the case with yours, and she may give you
a year or so of good blooms still. The problem with gall is
that eventually, literally it chokes the plant to death. It girdles
the canes till no auxin signals can be found anywhere within
the tissue and naturally the plant dies.

I've heard the same thing through the years and not just about roses. One
other thing I noticed on this rose this year, are the number of hips. Sure
it's had hips before, but nothing like this. I know there have been more
blooms, so there should be more hips, but it seems every bloom ends in a hip
now. And big nice ones they are too. It certainly fits with the old saying.
I guess we'll know soon enough if this is the last great stand. Whatever the
outcome I'm determined to enjoy the rose as long as it lasts.

Some people have found that Agri-strep or a copper
compound like Kocide can help if you can get rid of the
gall early enough, but in your case if it is so far gone
I will do what you are doing. That said, I will try and
clean the soil as much as possible where the rose is
planted. The bacteria has been known to have a life
span of two to four years, and if you do anything to
the rose, buy a cheap set of secateurs to do it with
and leave your normal pruners out of the mix.

The reason I am suggesting this is because the bacteria can be
transmitted when using contaminated pruners as a vector
to your healthy roses. I have found that having to continually
clean the Felcos with Clorox renders them dull and flat. I
assume it would do the same to any other tool.

That's a great idea! I already have an old pair I can use just for this rose.
They were my favorites for a long time, but finally could no longer be made
sharp enough for regular use. But since I liked them so well, I couldn't bear
to discard them. This will be a good final use for them. Perhaps when the
rose goes I can finally bury the pruners with it.

For that reason I am suggesting just in case you forget where
your pruners have been to get one and keep it by the palm
tree somewhere hidden there to use only with that rose.
What a pity! and what a waste...But you are wise not to
plant another rose there. In our group we had a discussion
not too long ago when I described getting our two New Dawns
back into the fence after the fence was re-stained and I compared
it with wrestling alligators in the nude. That was a couple of weeks
ago and I still have the scars to prove it!

I feel your pain! g And I have felt it more than once with this rose. It's
a good thing it's so beautiful and I'm so stubborn or it would never have
reached the top of the tree. Saying this rose has thorns is an understatement.
And all the long canes growing out every where only make the job worse. Maybe
the galls are the roses revenge, just when I thought it was under control, it
has to prove I am not the controller of the universe.

Will the bacteria travel through the ground? Should the rose be removed
to
prevent the spread of disese to the other roses? I assumed it was pretty
location specific, but I could be wrong. (Certainly won't be the first
or
last time!) If it won't spread I'm going to leave it. Let it decline and
then
start working on removal.

This has been a matter of discussion and/or dissent ever
since I started growing roses. There are those who swear
that it does, and others who swear that it doesn't.
That the transmission is only effected by manual vectoring.
I have a tendency to believe that it stays within a radius of
10 feet from the affected rose. Nothing scientific here, but
I dealt with a bad case years ago where a gorgeous Anna
de Diesbach got it badly. She sat rather regally in the middle
of that bed, and only the closest to her ended showing symptoms.
Both ends of the bed were clean, never a problem, nothing shown.

It may have been a fluke, but only four other roses began to
show the problem and so I ended cutting the galls, painting the
whole thing with Clorox and washing the roots (the galls were
only on the canes, none on the roots) uprooted every rose in
that bed, and disposed of the soil in a non-planting area after
dousing it consistently with Clorox six or seven times in one
week. I guess it was the cleanest, safest pile of dirt in the entire
West Coast for at least that week ;)

That's good news. After I decided to leave it alone, I did worry about the
spread. There isn't a rose within 10', the closest is maybe 15' away. And it
is one of the few remaining HTs, a good choice for the experiment. If it
galls, I wouldn't mind loosing this one much at all. But I will be watching
the other roses more closely.
I like your idea of "clean dirt." What would the neighbors think, when the
reply to "What are you doing?" is "Cleaning the dirt." g

Good luck my dear; I am sure your rose was a thing of beauty.
There is something so romantic and wild about a rose climbing
a tree! Our E. Veyrat Hermanos is now approaching the old
12 foot stump from the upper deck. Next summer I am sure it
will descend like a curtain of petals to our delight and that of
the hummingbirds that feed right next to it.

I will send you a photo when it happens, I promise.

Please do remember that photo. Your description of E. Veyrat Hermanos and the
photos I found put him on my wish list. A beautiful rose!

Thanks again for the all the advice and helpful suggestions.

Julie