swroot wrote:

Oz wrote:

Sirius writes

I know a lady who had a son in 1997. He was born blind and disabled and
has since died. She said this was caused by the spraying of Benzomate
on brussel sprouts in a nearby field, while she was pregnant, IIRC.

(What is Benzomate? Is it still used?)

[-]

More likely is Benlate, (benomyl) a fungicide (MBC).

Very widely used, approved, very low toxicity, non-mutagenic.
If the above symptoms were caused by this product it's widespread use on
pretty well all crops would have produced an unmissable epidemic by
about 1980.

You might be interested in

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/benomyl.htm

Further to that you should note that the high cost of litigation over
crop damage due to contamination with atrizine and possible effects on
human health resulted in Dupont voluntarily ceased production of Benlate
in 2001. It is no longer manufactured in the US or approved for use on
food crops in the US.


regards
sarah

--
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Everybody needs a start
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Give my country back its heart. _Great Big Sea_

"swroot" wrote in message
...
Oz wrote:

Sirius writes

I know a lady who had a son in 1997. He was born blind and disabled and
has
since died. She said this was caused by the spraying of Benzomate on
brussel
sprouts in a nearby field, while she was pregnant, IIRC.

(What is Benzomate? Is it still used?)

[-]

More likely is Benlate, (benomyl) a fungicide (MBC).

Very widely used, approved, very low toxicity, non-mutagenic.
If the above symptoms were caused by this product it's widespread use on
pretty well all crops would have produced an unmissable epidemic by
about 1980.

You might be interested in

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/benomyl.htm


Well I was interested in this bit:
"In 1996 a Miami jury awarded US$4 million to a child whose mother was
exposed in pregnancy to Benlate. The child was born without eyes. The mother
in this case was subject to an unusually high dose of Benlate. The case is
on appeal by the manufacturers. An important issue in the case is whether
the timing of exposure - during the formation of the optic nerve in the
foetus - is critical as well as the magnitude of exposure. A Benlate
compensation case involving an English boy from Essex born without eyes is
also due to be heard shortly in the US(21)."

swroot writes

You might be interested in

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/benomyl.htm

OK, it's very, very safe .....



--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:31:25 -0000, "Sirius"
wrote:
"Oz" wrote in message
...


foetus - is critical as well as the magnitude of exposure. A Benlate
compensation case involving an English boy from Essex born without eyes
is also due to be heard shortly in the US(21)."

But take a look at the rodent studies.
..

This mention of eye damage to foetuses (foetii??) does of course strike a
chord with me though.

Take a look at the rodent reproductive studies.
Anophtalmia/microophtalmia ~ missing or rudimentary development
of the eye bulbs is a well known teratogenic effects of benomyl.

e.g.:
Staples RE (1980) "Teratogenicity study in the rat after
administration by gavage of technical benomyl ( 95% benomyl)"
(Du Pont, unpublished report No. HLR 649-80)
Staples RE (1982) "Teratogenicity study in the rat using technical
benomyl (95% benomyl) administered by gavage and supplement with
individual animal data" (Du Pont, unpublished report No. HLR 649-80)

Best regards

Torsten Brinch

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:21:05 +0100, Torsten Brinch
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:31:25 -0000, "Sirius"
wrote:
"Oz" wrote in message
...


foetus - is critical as well as the magnitude of exposure. A Benlate
compensation case involving an English boy from Essex born without eyes
is also due to be heard shortly in the US(21)."

But take a look at the rodent studies.
..

This mention of eye damage to foetuses (foetii??) does of course strike a
chord with me though.

Take a look at the rodent reproductive studies.
Anophtalmia/microophtalmia ~ missing or rudimentary development
of the eye bulbs is a well known teratogenic effects of benomyl.

e.g.:
Staples RE (1980) "Teratogenicity study in the rat after
administration by gavage of technical benomyl ( 95% benomyl)"
(Du Pont, unpublished report No. HLR 649-80)
Staples RE (1982) "Teratogenicity study in the rat using technical
benomyl (95% benomyl) administered by gavage and supplement with
individual animal data" (Du Pont, unpublished report
No. HLR 649-80)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
correction, No. HLR 582-82

Best regards

Torsten Brinch

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Brian H. writes

4yrs ago (November) I had a chest infection, no problem,
the following March I collapsed, rushed into hospital with
pneumonia. Doctors pumped in the antibiotics as they do.
Result, Brians gradually leaving this world, massive reaction to
medication,
temperature of the scale, packed in ice for 48hrs.Awoke to see family
including 87yr old
Mum, around bed,with expressions on faces I never want to see again.

Hmmm.

Wouldn't it be more rational to blame either the infection or the drugs
used, rather than a long since past exposure to OP's, which aren't known
for producing these symptoms?

Going over all the spray plane pilots I know and their health is as follows.

ES 4 bombers in WW totaled, 7 spray planes totaled, one broken leg. Died of
brain cancer at 65 an old age for his siblings. Possibly pesticide related.

JW. Lost 2 bombers WWII totaled 5 spray planes no injuries died at 60 heart
attack.

JS No war experience. Totaled one spray plane in a stall in a turn at the
end or a row (same as a departure stall) broke most major bones in his body
at age 30, at age 70 still spraying.

SB No war experiences One accident at age 50 looped his Areoca Camp stunt
plane too close to the ground and caught a power pole on the propeller hub.
Cause of death stupidity. About a year before got up confessed an affair in
church and implicated two friends and three women with out letting any of
them know first. Stupidly nearly caused his death that time.

?? No war experience Killed in first year of spraying.

GD No war experience, no major accidents still flying at 62.
LD No war, no major accidents still flying and 58.

These guy worked with methyl and ethyl parathion most of their lives and in
the case of JS at 70 looks better than a lot of men 20 years younger if you
discount the wrinkles from the sun and some gray in his hair. I ran into him
about 6 months ago.

I do know several people that are injured by pesticides. Either form
careless handing or driving into the cloud of spray when putting on with a
ground rig.

I never applied insecticide with a ground rig. That's what they made
airplanes for. In my part of the world they could do it safely. That won't
work in a lot of the world.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

Torsten Brinch writes
Take a look at the rodent reproductive studies.
Anophtalmia/microophtalmia ~ missing or rudimentary development
of the eye bulbs is a well known teratogenic effects of benomyl.

e.g.:
Staples RE (1980) "Teratogenicity study in the rat after
administration by gavage of technical benomyl ( 95% benomyl)"
(Du Pont, unpublished report No. HLR 649-80)
Staples RE (1982) "Teratogenicity study in the rat using technical
benomyl (95% benomyl) administered by gavage and supplement with
individual animal data" (Du Pont, unpublished report No. HLR 649-80)

Doserates?

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz wrote:

swroot writes

You might be interested in

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/benomyl.htm

OK, it's very, very safe ...

That's a bit more like it. Now, if only I could remember precisely where
I'd read the recent summary of studies suggesting that very, very low
doses of some chemicals are as or more active than large doses. It
probably was New Scientist, in which case you too will have read it,
won't you?


regards
sarah


--
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Everybody needs a start
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Give my country back its heart. _Great Big Sea_

swroot writes

That's a bit more like it. Now, if only I could remember precisely where
I'd read the recent summary of studies suggesting that very, very low
doses of some chemicals are as or more active than large doses. It
probably was New Scientist, in which case you too will have read it,
won't you?

Indeed. Am waiting for confirmatory research.

Have passed it to my friend who is (probably the only) person doing
university-level research into homeopathy and some other alternative
medicines.

He has (despite conventional qualifications that take a sheet of A4)
been earning his living these past 30 years practicing alternative
medicine. So far his excellently done trials have come up with zero. One
of the few cases where a zero result has no trouble getting published.

A positive one would make him happy.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

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Oz wrote:

swroot writes

Further to that you should note that the high cost of litigation over
crop damage due to contamination with atrizine and possible effects on
human health resulted in Dupont voluntarily ceased production of Benlate
in 2001. It is no longer manufactured in the US or approved for use on
food crops in the US.

Eh?

It was dropped because benlate was by far the dearest of the MBC's to
manufacture. One reason I've never used it. Sales plummetted once people
knew that it just broke down into carbendazim, the real active
ingredient.

You appear to be the only exponent of that particular explanation, which
is not mentioned on any website discussing the matter :-)


regards
sarah


--
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Everybody needs a start
What d'ya do? You can't make nothing out of nothing
Give my country back its heart. _Great Big Sea_

Brian H. want to see again.

Hmmm.

Wouldn't it be more rational to blame either the infection or the drugs
used, rather than a long since past exposure to OP's, which aren't known
for producing these symptoms?

Not in this particular case.

The point I was attempting to make(obviously not very well)
was agricultural workers ingress unknown quantities of
chemicals.Possibly these chemicals remain dormant,
causing no symptoms until they are triggered by temperature or reaction to
powerful anti-biotic.

Remember, in the 50s and 60s farm workers were handling powerful chemicals
with little regard to health and safety. I don't remember using any
protective clothes, even gloves.

Rodine 25% arsenic,strychnine, dieldrene, sulphuric acid(to
burn off potato haulm), phosdrin, mevinphos, there are plenty of others that
were used into the 70s, DDT was still being used in 73 on brassicers and
organophosphates into
the 80s.
As an example,2cc of phosdrin injected into pheasant egg,
eaten by fox, fox will be dead within 5yds of where egg
was placed.

In my own case,samples were taken from toenails to lumber-puncture,blood
,hair skin etc. These samples were sent to a Sheffield lab.After several
days I was quizzed
extensively about my contact with organophosphate, the
specialist from the lab raised the question not myself, why?

The following week I was asked to list all chemicals/poisons I had had
contact with in the workplace, this I found impossible....40+yrs...could
you?

Are you sure you have no trace of agri chemical in your
body waiting for a "trigger".......are you sure....really sure??

Brian H........

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Brian H. writes

The point I was attempting to make(obviously not very well)
was agricultural workers ingress unknown quantities of
chemicals.

They shouldn't, unless they are both stupid and careless.

Possibly these chemicals remain dormant,
causing no symptoms until they are triggered by temperature or reaction to
powerful anti-biotic.

See the half-live, safety and breakdown data.

Remember, in the 50s and 60s farm workers were handling powerful chemicals
with little regard to health and safety. I don't remember using any
protective clothes, even gloves.

Assuming you were sensible enough to prevent contamination and/or wash
it off quickly I'm not sure protective clothing is such an advantage.


Rodine 25% arsenic,strychnine, dieldrene, sulphuric acid(to
burn off potato haulm), phosdrin, mevinphos, there are plenty of others that
were used into the 70s,

Indeed so.
Don't worry about strychnine or sulphuric acid though.
Arsenic was (to say the least) unusual.
Dieldrin is accumulative,
The last two are OP's (not very nice ones) but are from memory pretty
quicklu biodegraded.

DDT was still being used in 73 on brassicers

I started farming in '72 and spring '73 we couldn't use DDT due to
banning. IIRC even then this was only to dip transplanted seedlings.

and
organophosphates into
the 80s.

Organophosphates are still used today. I wouldn't use them until an
argument with torsten made me look up the toxicity data on the recent
ones, where I found they were relatively low toxicity and their
biodegradeability was attractive.

As an example,2cc of phosdrin injected into pheasant egg,
eaten by fox, fox will be dead within 5yds of where egg
was placed.

Very probably. I've never heard of it's use in the UK.

In my own case,samples were taken from toenails to lumber-puncture,blood
,hair skin etc. These samples were sent to a Sheffield lab.After several
days I was quizzed
extensively about my contact with organophosphate, the
specialist from the lab raised the question not myself, why?

Ask him. One of the many OP exposure trials?

Note that for sheep dipping, exposure is likely to have been rather high
in the past. It's pretty well inevitable (in my experience) unless the
whole dipping system has been properly designed. That's quite different
from a sensible person filling a spray tank.

The following week I was asked to list all chemicals/poisons I had had
contact with in the workplace, this I found impossible....40+yrs...could
you?

Had contact with, or used?

Are you sure you have no trace of agri chemical in your
body waiting for a "trigger".......are you sure....really sure??

As sure as I can be.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Oz wrote:
Brian H. writes


The point I was attempting to make(obviously not very well) was
agricultural workers ingress unknown quantities of chemicals.


They shouldn't, unless they are both stupid and careless.

That is a really a very very limited world view. How about if the
farmers cannot read labels in English, or are illiterate and uneducated,
and there no government agencies that enforce safety? In many
developing tropical countries, it is common to see pesticides applied to
excess by folks who cannot readthe labels on the imported chemicals, who
have no protective clothing,and who have no way to wash the residues off
their person. There is a large world out there, and the living/farming
conditions are not always pretty.

Wayne Parrott wrote in message
...
Oz wrote:
Brian H. writes


The point I was attempting to make(obviously not very well) was
agricultural workers ingress unknown quantities of chemicals.


They shouldn't, unless they are both stupid and careless.

That is a really a very very limited world view. How about if the
farmers cannot read labels in English, or are illiterate and
uneducated,
and there no government agencies that enforce safety? In many
developing tropical countries, it is common to see pesticides applied
to
excess by folks who cannot readthe labels on the imported chemicals,
who
have no protective clothing,and who have no way to wash the residues
off
their person. There is a large world out there, and the
living/farming
conditions are not always pretty.

don't worry, they suffer for a good cause, making large profits for UK
supermarkets


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Wayne Parrott writes
Oz wrote:
Brian H. writes


The point I was attempting to make(obviously not very well) was
agricultural workers ingress unknown quantities of chemicals.


They shouldn't, unless they are both stupid and careless.

That is a really a very very limited world view. How about if the farmers cannot
read labels in English, or are illiterate and uneducated, and there no
government agencies that enforce safety?

That is something for the local government.
I positively refuse to accept my careful use of pesticides should be
further controlled because third world governments do not control their
use properly.

In many developing tropical countries,
it is common to see pesticides applied to excess by folks who cannot readthe
labels on the imported chemicals, who have no protective clothing,and who have
no way to wash the residues off their person. There is a large world out there,
and the living/farming conditions are not always pretty.

This may very well be.
Write to the governments of the countries involved then.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.