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#121
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:48:40 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote: In article , Torsten Brinch writes The money might have been better used if spread less thickly at the top but I guess the present arrangement can be defended as *fair*. I would be interested in how you would you go about doing that. I suppose, to retain fairness, you could have a fixed payment to each farm with a top up acreage payment. This might detract from any unwritten agenda to encourage farm amalgamation though. How does this defend the present agreement as fair? Fair in the schoolground sense of a group faced with dividing up a bag of goodies. Any attempt to give less to a *fat* child will be resisted. The present arrangement is that the fatter the child the more he gets, a school-child would most certainly consider that to be unfair. |
#122
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Torsten Brinch wrote in message ... On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:08:55 -0600, "Gordon Couger" wrote: 600 English farms losing £62 million = A loss of ~£100,000 per farm. 600 English farms on status quo, receiving 300,000 Euro + £100,000 = Status quo = an average £300,000 hand-out to each of 600 farms. If we go for Fischler's proposal, they will only get £200,000 and there will be £62 million to give to somebody else. Perhaps we could discuss the best use of these £62m. Who should have it? what have you got against farm workers? why is it OK for farmers to split holdings on paper between members of their families, (a common strategy in much of europe,) and get all the money, but if you keep the holding in one management unit and employ staff you will not get the money. So what has Torsten got against agricultural workers? -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#123
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Torsten Brinch wrote in message ... On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:48:40 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote Fair in the schoolground sense of a group faced with dividing up a bag of goodies. Any attempt to give less to a *fat* child will be resisted. The present arrangement is that the fatter the child the more he gets, a school-child would most certainly consider that to be unfair. except that the larger farm supports more people. Also what is a large farm? A large pig unit can cover a small acreage, a very major dairy unit less land than a middle sized arable outfit. Constructive discussion is one thing, but play ground comparisons soon break down into nonsense. One thing considered in the mid term review was to set up labour bands so the more labour you had, the more money you got, so a small family outfit which included granny, two maiden aunts and three school aged children would be supported heavily. A sensible commercial operation actually producing food wouldn't get anything at all. Yet in the former case they would be drawing state pensions, child allowance etc as well. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#124
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:45:13 +0100, Torsten Brinch
wrote: One of the reactions on Commissioner Fischler's proposal to put in a capping system in the subsidies "Initial estimates from the National Farmers' Union suggest that almost 600 English farms - about 2 per cent of the total - would exceed the 300,000 Euro ceiling, representing a total financial loss of about £62m if the measure was approved. About 30 Scottish farms would also be affected." 600 English farms = 2 % of the total = Total number of English farms = 30,000 farms 600 English farms losing £62 million = A loss of ~£100,000 per farm. 600 English farms on status quo, receiving 300,000 Euro + £100,000 = Status quo = an average £300,000 hand-out to each of 600 farms. If we go for Fischler's proposal, they will only get £200,000 and there will be £62 million to give to somebody else. Perhaps we could discuss the best use of these £62m. Who should have it? We better take off from your beloved status quo, then. Now, imagine this, believe it or not, additional funding has been made available in the EU budget to be put into the farm end of food-production. The share allotted to farming in England has been set to £62m/yr. Who should have it? |
#125
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:45:05 +0100, Torsten Brinch
wrote: Now, imagine this, believe it or not, additional funding has been made available in the EU budget to be put into the farm end of food-production. The share allotted to farming in England has been set to £62m/yr. Who should have it? Right, it's just not plausible. Grin. So, back to EU Commissioner Fischlers proposal, to cap the subsidy per farm to no more than 300,000 Euro (~$300,000) a year: (Senator Chuck Grassley, February 2002, commenting the capping provisions of the new US Farm Bill): "In another David vs. Goliath victory, I successfully fought to cap farm subsidy payments at no more than $275,000 a year. Currently, they are virtually unlimited in some cases. And studies showed that 10 percent of the farmers in the United States were receiving 60 percent of the farm payments from the Federal Treasury. Not only does this erode public support for the farm program, it also undercuts the intention of the farm safety net." (Rocky Mountain Farmers Union, commenting the capping decision): "There's nothing wrong with operators who want to expand beyond the size of a family operation, but there is no reason for government programs to support them beyond that level." |
#126
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dim wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:47:39 +0100, Torsten Brinch wrote: So, back to EU Commissioner Fischlers proposal, to cap the subsidy per farm to no more than 300,000 Euro (~$300,000) a year: You probably do not know how little farmers earn, and how little is done to help them. Look, if they can't make a living, they've got no choice but to leave farming, is that what you want? Perhaps you rather have city people carve up rural Britain with their 4-by-4 vehicles. Grin, so now you are all into get-back-to-the-land, eh? But you know, farmers always complain - if I had a pound for every time I heard a farmer moaning about how poor they are, I'd be able to afford one of those 4x4 off-roaders you're on about. Rememember that farmers have already made a great effort to cut costs and diversify into new sources of income. Indeed some farmers change use of the land, are moving into the leisure sector or convert land into wildlife and nature parks. It doesn't matter how they diversify, if they can't run a business. They moan now, but they had an avg -£80 K- profit in 1995. They should have put some of that aside, all businesses have their ups and downs, but the farmers think society -owe- them a living. There's a lot of ignorance about farming. What's very much needed is support for agriculture and education to show how important it is to us all. Right, let us have one more campaign to win more help for farmers who have spent their lives getting rich whilst wrecking the countryside. With a Government that doesn't care and a public that resents them like you appear to be doing, one should think farmers have enough misfortune. But remember, they are also ripped-off by the supermarkets. What's this all about? Have you got a persecution complex or what?! Farmers sell their goods in a free market - what's unfair about that? Farmers are being exploited everywhere they turn. Supermarkets exist to make money - farmers should learn to adapt. And farmers are still trying to sell us BSE-infected meat, aren't they? Farming itself is a stressful occupation due to the long lonely hours. There are fewer farm workers now due to cuts and new technology, and extra labour is seasonal. Medium-sized farms are being combined to cover larger and larger areas. Soon all we'll be left with are rural factories, bigger and emptier than disused shipyards. That's just the nature of the game. You hear farmers rambling on about how they love the solitude of the hills all the time on Country File. So nice. We should we pay him for that? Really, out here in society, if a worker cannot pay his own wage, he is one too many where he is --- anyhow, face it, bigger farms are more efficient - that's just economy of scale. |
#127
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Torsten Brinch wrote in message ... Dim wrote: when you look back at the quality of discussion Torsten was capable of a couple of years ago, you begin to seriously wonder if it is actually the same person posting under the name -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#129
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article , Tim Lamb
writes I have modest needs. I need gainful employment for 6 more years. Which particular frying pan should I aim for? Become a plumber, quick ! I rang my plumber (thankfully I have one) the other day as I need some work doing and ask him how business was. Unsurprisingly rushed off his feet was the reply. He said he kept getting phone calls from companies from inside and around the M25 who were looking for plumbers qualified to work with gas (which he is) to service and install gas central heating boilers and systems. They were offering him around 80,000 pounds per year. Wasn't he tempted I asked ? Why should I travel all that way to work and take a cut in wages was his reply ! Cheers Dave -- |
#130
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:19:19 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote: I have modest needs. I need gainful employment for 6 more years. Which particular frying pan should I aim for? Tim, would you be interested in contributing to a thread looking into your personal situation, options and future prospects -- as an exemplary exercise? Doing it on this thread would be obviously off-topic, but that is not to say it could not be the subject of another thread. |
#131
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dean Hoffman wrote in message ... On 12/17/02 11:47 AM, in article , "Torsten Brinch" wrote: It's tough to write a law to cover U.S. Agriculture, or so the politicians say. The average Nebraska farm is a little over 800 acres. In Iowa, our neighbor to the east, the average farm size is under half that. at least you all speak a reasonably common language :-)) Europe tries to legislate from Finland to Sicily, Scotland to Greece. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#132
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
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#133
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:28:40 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote: On Thursday, in article "Torsten Brinch" wrote: I agree. It would be implied in the concept efficient farming that it is competitive, that is, it is something that beats less efficient farming; that it is the nature of the game. I've heard the viewpoint, why should a man not be allowed to use land for efficient farming. Indeed, and why should that need a subsidy. One might argue that the valid reasons for a subsidy should be centred on the greater good of the community. snip examples Right, society should be better off with the subsidy, than it would be without it. Couple that principle with the principle, that society is better off with efficient farming, and you effortlessly get that society would be better off not subsidising it, leaving the support of farm production to the market. We then have the question of whether the subsidies are excessive, and the cost is far more than the benefit. But this is not in itself an argument against all subsidy. One can't argue against all subsidy, it is inherent that each and every specific case of subsidy might arguably have demonstrable benefits to society. It is important to realise, however, that it is no longer considered beneficial to society to subsidise farm production. |
#134
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article , Dave Roberts
writes In article , Tim Lamb writes I have modest needs. I need gainful employment for 6 more years. Which particular frying pan should I aim for? Become a plumber, quick ! Ha! I have installed 3 central heating systems in our various houses up to the point of connecting and testing the gas supply. I doubt if I am fast enough to earn 80k per annum though:-) regards -- Tim Lamb |
#135
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article , Torsten Brinch
writes On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:19:19 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote: I have modest needs. I need gainful employment for 6 more years. Which particular frying pan should I aim for? Tim, would you be interested in contributing to a thread looking into your personal situation, options and future prospects -- as an exemplary exercise? Doing it on this thread would be obviously off-topic, but that is not to say it could not be the subject of another thread. I have no problem with providing raw data regarding cropping, agronomy expenditure, yields, support payments, livestock numbers, sale prices etc. my concern is that I do not have the time, inclination or ability to perform detailed analysis. I already have a broad strategy of planned business changes as I move closer to retirement which could be put forward for discussion. I am not currently subscribed to sci.ag so you would need to maintain the cross posting. Suggested topic title... exit strategy:-) regards -- Tim Lamb |
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