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#151
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
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#152
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... As in Europe many industries are subsidised, either directly, or by being given tax breaks, the idea that agriculture should some how stand alone is interesting to say the least. It's especially interesting to me because it seems the only industry that we can't live without, literally. M |
#153
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote: "Jim Webster" wrote in message ... As in Europe many industries are subsidised, either directly, or by being given tax breaks, the idea that agriculture should some how stand alone is interesting to say the least. what a maroon It's especially interesting to me because it seems the only industry that we can't live without, literally. It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. |
#154
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" .. It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. Each have their own problems. If minimum wages are pushed up to the minimum for someone living in London then it will be hard to create jobs that can employ at this level throughout the country. Subsidise have their own problems of losing touch with their purpose and encouraging a plutocracy that costs a disproportionate amount. The continueing underlying problem is that in Britain the minimum amount needed to survive is nearly the same as average income. This results in nearly half the population getting both social payments and paying tax. Until minimum wages exceed minimum cost of living then a set of distorting welfare and subsidiese payments are inevitable. |
#155
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Hamish Macbeth" wrote in message ... "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" . It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. No it doesn't. Many societies make very little provision for the poor. e.g. though the US is significantly wealthier than the UK, its poor are significantly poorer. Though even the US is an example of a society that makes provision for its own poor, and those of other countries, e.g. though its government agencies such as USAID, and its contributions to international programmes. Many countries make zero contribution, even during the good years, to helping the poor of even their nearest neighbours. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. A minimum wage is about as sure a way of destroying a genuinely free market as any I can think of. Each have their own problems. If minimum wages are pushed up to the minimum for someone living in London then it will be hard to create jobs that can employ at this level throughout the country. Subsidise have their own problems of losing touch with their purpose and encouraging a plutocracy that costs a disproportionate amount. Subsidies almost never exist without very clear constraints, e.g. UK dairy farmers have a very clear limit on production and any over production ends up being at their expense. The quotas however do ensure that the quanity of milk that the government wishes to see produced is maintained and production is shared amongst a decent number of producers rather than the most effecient eventually gaining the entire market and a near monopoly. The continueing underlying problem is that in Britain the minimum amount needed to survive is nearly the same as average income. This results in nearly half the population getting both social payments and paying tax. Until minimum wages exceed minimum cost of living then a set of distorting welfare and subsidiese payments are inevitable. The minimum cost of living is nothing like as high as it seems. Just compare the living costs of a pensioner with a working adult. The cost of being employed is now very high, e.g. transport and meals taken away from home may now be something of the order of £5,000 per year for many adults. For those who need to add child care costs, then being employed becomes an expensive luxury. Michael Saunby |
#156
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:35:43 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth"
wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" . It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. snip stuff re social welfare policy That already assumes that the society is removed from a situation in which it needs to subsidise the production of basic necessities for survival. I agree that an appropriate safety net must be in existence in such a society, to the effect that noone drops out at the bottom. It is entirely unclear how current cap payments are meant to provide for the poor. |
#157
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:35:43 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" . It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. snip stuff re social welfare policy That already assumes that the society is removed from a situation in which it needs to subsidise the production of basic necessities for survival. I agree that an appropriate safety net must be in existence in such a society, to the effect that noone drops out at the bottom. It is entirely unclear how current cap payments are meant to provide for the poor. The people who run the system may have lost the plot. |
#159
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:41:04 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth"
wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:35:43 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" . It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. snip stuff re social welfare policy That already assumes that the society is removed from a situation in which it needs to subsidise the production of basic necessities for survival. I agree that an appropriate safety net must be in existence in such a society, to the effect that noone drops out at the bottom. It is entirely unclear how current cap payments are meant to provide for the poor. The people who run the system may have lost the plot. Please. |
#160
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:39:41 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote: On Thursday, in article "Torsten Brinch" wrote: One can't argue against all subsidy, it is inherent that each and every specific case of subsidy might arguably have demonstrable benefits to society. It is important to realise, however, that it is no longer considered beneficial to society to subsidise farm production. Why? Saying "free market" is not an explanation. No, it is the assumed default among reasonable men. It is the presence, not the absence of a subsidy that must have a special explanation attached to it. It does not make sense to ask, why some enterprise should -not- have a subsidy. |
#161
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:35:43 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:49:50 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" . It should be the exception, rather than the rule, that a society needs to subsidize the production of basic necessities for survival. Society has to provide for the poor. This can be done by either a minimum wage that is liveable in a free market, social payments or subsidise in the basics. snip stuff re social welfare policy That already assumes that the society is removed from a situation in which it needs to subsidise the production of basic necessities for survival. I agree that an appropriate safety net must be in existence in such a society, to the effect that noone drops out at the bottom. It is entirely unclear how current cap payments are meant to provide for the poor. Well until the affordable distribution of milk was made possible in the UK, first by railways, then by tarmac roads, rickets was a common problem in urban UK. So perhaps the historical developments that have brought us to where we are might shed some light on the problem. Jim's most likely the man with the answers. Michael Saunby |
#162
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:39:41 +0000 (GMT), ("David G. Bell") wrote: On Thursday, in article "Torsten Brinch" wrote: One can't argue against all subsidy, it is inherent that each and every specific case of subsidy might arguably have demonstrable benefits to society. It is important to realise, however, that it is no longer considered beneficial to society to subsidise farm production. Why? Saying "free market" is not an explanation. No, it is the assumed default among reasonable men. It is the presence, not the absence of a subsidy that must have a special explanation attached to it. It does not make sense to ask, why some enterprise should -not- have a subsidy. So why do education, police, health, telecoms, rail, fireservice, etc. all receive subsidy? Michael Saunby |
#163
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article , Torsten Brinch
writes No, it is the assumed default among reasonable men. It is the presence, not the absence of a subsidy that must have a special explanation attached to it. It does not make sense to ask, why some enterprise should -not- have a subsidy. How about conspiracy theory? In a country without a command economy is it easier for government to control agricultural production with or without paying subsidy? regards -- Tim Lamb |
#164
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Michelle Fulton wrote in message .com... "Jim Webster" wrote in message ... As in Europe many industries are subsidised, either directly, or by being given tax breaks, the idea that agriculture should some how stand alone is interesting to say the least. It's especially interesting to me because it seems the only industry that we can't live without, literally. A friend of mine who farms was at a family do three or four years ago, and the husband of a cousin pointed out that we didn't need to produce beef in the UK as they could import it as cheap as they wanded from Zimbabwe. (As an aside I wonder why he couldn't see the obvious writing on the wall, given that Mugabee has hardly been hiding his aims for the last decade or two.) Funnily enough my friend has been waiting enthusiastically for the next family wedding, to ask whether his cousins husband is still getting plenty of Zimbabwean beef. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' M |
#165
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Torsten Brinch wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:39:41 +0000 (GMT), ("David G. Bell") wrote: On Thursday, in article "Torsten Brinch" wrote: One can't argue against all subsidy, it is inherent that each and every specific case of subsidy might arguably have demonstrable benefits to society. It is important to realise, however, that it is no longer considered beneficial to society to subsidise farm production. Why? Saying "free market" is not an explanation. No, it is the assumed default among reasonable men. It is the presence, not the absence of a subsidy that must have a special explanation attached to it. It does not make sense to ask, why some enterprise should -not- have a subsidy. I live on the fringe of a shipbuilding town. I doubt very much whether Europe has produced an unsubsidised ship of over 5,000 tonnes for more than a generation. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
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