"Jane Gillett" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Gordon Couger wrote:

"Hamish Macbeth" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
...
Wiht no evidence just another trade barrier for which the EU paying
a
fine.

I wonder what happens if the US decides to press the case of GM
crops
with
the WTO?


Does the WTO have any mandate for goods banned in an area?

This would suggest that American gun manufacturers could complain that
Britain is curbing their trade by blocking imports.

Ig GM crops are banned from all sources I don't see that WTO has any
authority.

The US postition is there is no differnce in GM crops and anyohter crop.
We
don't treat them any differntly after they are approved and there is no
evidence that there is any danger more danger from them than any other
food.

It's possible. But....

IMO there has not been and will never be an independent assessment of any
danger. The "interested parties" are too powerful for it to happen. The
major (US) multinationals can and do control the US govt to enhance the
interest of the major companies. One step further along the line, the US
govt is then driving the UK govt to take steps which will enhance the
financial reurns of the multinationals. According to you it is also trying
to drive the bodies which control world trade so that they also act in the
interest of the multinationals.

In that climate, I am very suspicious of any assessments leading to claims
of "no danger". I also have a strong personal aversion to any system which
says "I am bigger than you and I am going to see that I get my way.".
Jane

Would you rather have crops that were developed by treating them with
radiation or mutigens to the point 50 to 70% of the seed dies and sort
through what's left for things that look good and breed it back to
conventional varieties and market it with out testing? That's one way
conventional breeding works.

Almost everything you eat has been enhanced by mutengens at some time or the
other. In contrast genetic engineering only transfers a few genes and
verifies that they moved them and were they are and they check for novel
proteins and other products and get approval from at least the one agency
and in the case of BT crops two. The delays run 2 or 3 years

Compare that to some of these organic methods that are really dangerous.

Gordon

Tosco Uses Killer Spiders

- The Sun (UK) http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002550314,00.html

Tesco (the British supermarket - CSP) yesterday admitted using deadly
Black Widow spiders to kill off insects in its bunches of grapes.

The shock revelation comes after three women found Black Widows - two of
them ALIVE - in fruit they bought at different Tesco stores. The spiders,
which have red markings on their backs, were introduced to Tesco vineyards
in California as an alternative to pesticide, following customer demand
for "natural" food.

But the grapes are supposed to be hand-checked before being exported.Tesco
spokesman Greg Sage said last night: "We use natural predators on grapes
because they prevent insects from puncturing the grapes. The spiders are
very effective.

"All I can do is apologise for any distress this may have caused. We've
spoken to our suppliers to ensure that the checking process is as good as
it can be. "The fact that the spiders are alive is evidence that we're not
using pesticides - because if we were they'd be dead."

A Foods Standard Agency spokesman said: "The local authority has powers to
take action." London-based spider expert Paul Hillyard said: "Black Widows
can cause considerable damage with a bite which is potentially lethal."

***********


CAMPYLOBACTER, CHICKENS - UK: FREE-RANGE REARING
*********************************************
A ProMED-mail post
http://www.promedmail.org
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
http://www.isid.org


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2002
From: ProMED-mail
Source: Telegraph (UK), 20 Nov 2002 [edited]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...20/nchick20.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2002/11/20/ixhome.html


Risk soars in organic chickens
------------------------------
Free-range and organic chickens are twice as likely to carry a food
poisoning bacteria than battery hens, research said yesterday. Initial
findings from a study sponsored by the Government show much higher levels
of campylobacter in flocks reared outdoors.

The study, led by Prof Tom Humphrey at the University of Bristol,
investigated 60 organic and 130 conventional flocks. He found campylobacter
in 58 percent of indoor-reared flocks, but in all the organic flocks. All
chickens studied were destined for human consumption.

Campylobacter and _E. coli_, Britain's most common bacterial causes of food
poisoning, are thought to be carried by wild birds, a theory explaining
high levels in outdoor-bred flocks.

Prof Humphrey, professor of food safety and well-known for his work on
bacteria in poultry and eggs, was unavailable for comment. His research is
sponsored by the Food Standards Agency, whose spokesman said: "The birds
that remained outside were organic and free-range so it is therefore more
about the method of production."

Richard Young, policy adviser at the Soil Association, which campaigns for
organic food and farming, said: "If there is an issue here it is about
whether chickens should be kept indoors or outdoors and not whether they
are organic or conventional." The research was incomplete and not
peer-reviewed.

--
ProMED-mail


[In September 2000, the chairman of the (then newly established) Food
Standards Agency (FSA), Sir John Krebs, said in an interview to the BBC
that organic food consumers were "not getting value for money, in my
opinion and in the opinion of the Food Standards Agency, if they think
they're buying food with extra nutritional quality or extra safety". Sir
John based his statement upon the results of research by scientists at the
Eclipse Scientific Group laboratory in Cambridgeshire. As expected, a
bitter public debate encompassing the British parliament ensued.

In a recent submission of FSA to the Welsh Assembly on organic food (Mon,
27 May 2002) the FSA indicated that on the basis of current evidence, the
Agency's assessment is that organic food is not significantly different in
terms of food safety and nutrition from food produced conventionally. FSA's
views on organic food are at:
http://www.food.gov.uk/science/scien...s/organicfood/

Campylobacteriosis is an infectious disease caused by bacteria of the genus
Campylobacter. The Campylobacter organism is actually a group of
spiral-shaped bacteria that can cause disease in humans and animals.
_Campylobacter jejuni_ has become a major public health hazard and the main
etiologic contributor -- at least, quantitatively -- to food poisoning in
many countries, with contaminated raw poultry meat playing the main role
(See "Campylobacter jejuni -- An Emerging Foodborne Pathogen", S. F.
Altekruse et al, EID, Vol 15 No 1, Jan-Mar 1999
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no1/altekruse.htm ).

Most human illness is caused by _Campylobacter jejuni_, but 1 percent of
human Campylobacter cases are caused by other species. Most people who
become ill with campylobacteriosis get diarrhea, cramping, abdominal pain,
and fever within 2 to 5 days after exposure to the organism. The diarrhea
may be bloody and can be accompanied by nausea and vomiting. The illness
typically lasts one week. Some persons who are infected with Campylobacter
don't have any symptoms at all. In persons with compromised immune systems,
Campylobacter occasionally spreads to the bloodstream and causes a serious
life-threatening infection. According to the US Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention (CDC), Campylobacter is the most common bacterial cause of
diarrheal illness in the United States. Virtually all cases occur as
isolated, sporadic events, not as a part of large outbreaks. Even though
surveillance is very limited, over 10 000 cases are reported to the CDC
each year, equaling approximately 6 cases for each 100 000 persons in the
population. Many more cases go undiagnosed or unreported, and
campylobacteriosis is estimated to affect over 2 million persons every
year, or 1 percent of the population.

An FSA survey announced in August 2001 indicated that 50 per cent of
UK-produced retail chickens are contaminated with campylobacter. It has
become the single biggest identified cause of food poisoning in the UK. The
emergence of Quinolone and Macrolide resistance in _Campylobacter jejuni_
is a reason for additional concerns. Reducing campylobacter levels in
chickens is an essential part of the Agency's commitment to cutting food
poisoning cases in the UK by 20 percent by 2006. FSA's Advisory Committee
on the Microbiological Safety of Food (ACMSF), of which Professor Tom
Humphrey is a member, is playing a key role in tackling the campylobacter
issue.

The current posting, ostensibly based upon his group's research (yet to be
published), might be followed by renewed and heated debates between
supporters and opponents of the ever-growing organic agriculture movement
(in a recent poll by the FSA, 64 percent of the participants indicated they
buy organic food). - Mod.AS]

[And the additional sound advice from our copy editor PG "wash your hands,
cook the chicken right, and you won't get sick" - Mod.MPP]


[see also:
1998
----
Campylobacter & foodborne gastroenteritis - USA 19980228.0391
1997
----
Food-borne disease outbreaks (worldwide) (02) 19970901.1858
1996
----
Antibiotics in livestock feed (8) 19960907.1532]
................................mhj/arn/pg/mpp


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http://www.lifesciencesnetwork.com/n...sp?newsID=1122

Ewen-Street should get his facts right

NZ Life Sciences Network

Green Party MP Ian Ewen-Street should take care to get the facts right
when he rushes into print promoting organic farming, the Chairman of the
Life Sciences Network, Dr William Rolleston said today.

The only food scare in recent history in New Zealand stemmed from the
farming methods of organic farmers and others who use unconventional
farming practices.

In late February this year New Zealanders were regaled with stories about
killer zucchini which had developed high levels of natural toxins and
been sold on the vegetable market. The result was several recorded cases
of people suffering food poisoning in the Canterbury area.

Now it turns out that, where the growers were able to be identified, a
significant proportion were organic growers.

An examination of common factors shows the levels of toxin apparently
increased among zucchini growers who did not spray their crops. Unusual
climatic conditions meant there were huge numbers of aphids about in
January and insect predation is sometimes associated with increased levels
of toxins in plants.

A literature review by Crop & Food scientists showed there was no direct
research to show increased levels of the particular toxin (cucurbitacin)
in zucchini fruit as a result of insect activity, though it has been shown
in leaves. Neither does this research mean the contamination did not
result from insect activity. More research will need to be done to
establish the facts.

Of greater relevance was the clear link between increased toxin levels
and older open-pollinating varieties of seeds.

The Royal Commission on Genetic Modification was told many times by
organic growers of their preference to save seed from previous crops. It
is likely zucchini grown from saved seed will therefore be more vulnerable
to toxin build-up.

The reviewing scientists are very clear that the most likely cause of the
build up of toxins is a genetic weakness in older varieties.

This is a clear case where the growers decision to use older varieties
and to save seeds is likely to have resulted in a health risk for
consumers - something which has never happened with crops derived from
genetic modification.

It is possible the problem may have been exacerbated by the pressure put
on the zucchini by insect predation.

To the extent there was an insect problem this could have been avoided
through use of the same sprays which all conventional vegetable growers
use to limit insect damage, and to make their crop safe for consumption.

Mr Ewen-Street should acknowledge that, in this case, the organic growers
should have responded to the insect infestation with pesticides, or
withdrawn their product from the market for food safety reasons. Organic
production methods sometimes impose risks to the health of consumers and
that certifying food as organic does not make it safe.

Mr Ewen-Street should further acknowledge that all food production
methods carry risks; that human error and failure to follow the right
procedures are the biggest food safety risks we face not new technology.

Those who live in glass houses should not throw the first stone Mr
Ewen-Street, concluded Dr Rolleston.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:14:13 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In article , Torsten Brinch
writes
On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:00:21 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
What is the 'floe'?

Adrift

the fallen sunshade the chirp parting
the flashwindcrackle soon glowing
afterimage those leaves momentary
shadows thrown around an invisible fire
always leaving always here

(poem by Helga Härle)

Just as I thought, an oblique Scandinavian escape route. A better
translation might link the word with *flight* or past tense *flown* and
implied *catch me if you can*.

No translation is needed. It is Norwegian 'flo' meaning flat layer,
which has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice. It
will be associated to other concepts, e.g. based on spelling likeness,
and the wider connotations of sea ice, and the mind state of the
associator.

There were two youngsters, who followed the tracks of a Nanuk. When
they caught up with it, they started buggering it, trying to molest
it. Of the youngsters, one got away, wounded. The other ended up
partly eaten, the rescue team found his sad remains on the floe. The
bear was subsequent tracked down and shot.

Nice poem though. Is this original or translation?

It is the authors translation from the original.

"Hamish Macbeth" wrote in message
...

Thank you for that, I am however none the wiser

That's exactly what I wanted to say, but I figured it was just me :-)

M

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

M :-)

Michelle Fulton wrote in message
m...

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

M :-)

Remember the adverts for Glacier Mints?


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:04:58 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

You may know it from the expression 'go with the floe'. It would be
understandable if an English tongued person associate this to flow,
like going with the flow of water, but that is not the original
meaning of the expression. Floe and flow are in the origin
completely different concepts, going with the floe means going with
the ice.

An English tongued person might yield to associations from floe
to flee/fly/fled/flight, particularly when he is in a belligerent
state of mind, but again, flee/fly is an altogether different concept
than floe.

The two concepts 'floe' and 'flaw', otoh, come from the same origin,
which probably few English would connect, in whatever mood. The
original concept of both is one of a flat piece, a 'flake', cracked
off something. This concept was carried over to human character, a
flake ~flaw in character, and later on to broken things generally.
'Flake' itself is of course of the same root as floe and flaw.

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:04:58 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

concepts, going with the floe means going with
the ice.

An English tongued person might yield to associations from floe
to flee/fly/fled/flight, particularly when he is in a belligerent
state of mind, but again, flee/fly is an altogether different concept
than floe.


Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:41:57 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:04:58 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

concepts, going with the floe means going with
the ice.

An English tongued person might yield to associations from floe
to flee/fly/fled/flight, particularly when he is in a belligerent
state of mind, but again, flee/fly is an altogether different concept
than floe.


Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

Self evidently now, you just made it:-) The direct template of
this new expression would of course be King Lear, but it is difficult
to say this template really had an origin, since the language use is
so obviously highly apophonical there. The 'falling' vocal shifting
'ee-eye-oh-u(m)' may serve to associate to finalisation or
conclusion, though, in our language as well as in Shakespeares. So,
although it is equally an apophony to say 'bim bam bum', as it is to
say 'bum bam bim', hearing the two things would tune minds
differently.

Xref: 127.0.0.1 uk.business.agricultu103990 sci.agricultu61506

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:41:57 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:04:58 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

concepts, going with the floe means going with
the ice.

An English tongued person might yield to associations from floe
to flee/fly/fled/flight, particularly when he is in a belligerent
state of mind, but again, flee/fly is an altogether different concept
than floe.


Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

Self evidently now, you just made it:-) The direct template of
this new expression would of course be King Lear,

My mind was drifting to Hamlet - it seemed somewhat more appropriate,
unless you were to prefer I identify you as Claudius? g

I am sure you also recognised my misquoting of the rhyme.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:09:34 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:41:57 -0000, David P
Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

Self evidently now, you just made it:-) The direct template of
this new expression would of course be King Lear,

My mind was drifting to Hamlet

Floe, how the muske-cod smells!

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:09:34 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:41:57 -0000, David P
Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

Self evidently now, you just made it:-) The direct template of
this new expression would of course be King Lear,

My mind was drifting to Hamlet

Floe, how the muske-cod smells!

Indeed. One wonders if the smell was as strong in 1996 when UK had in
1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

and you never did answer my direct questions did you?

But let us not dance that dance again. My wits are not nimble enough to
avoid treading on the toes of your meanderings.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Wednesday, in article

"David P" wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:41:57 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:04:58 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .

has introgressed English to become 'floe', meaning sea ice.

I knew that! smacks self in head

concepts, going with the floe means going with
the ice.

An English tongued person might yield to associations from floe
to flee/fly/fled/flight, particularly when he is in a belligerent
state of mind, but again, flee/fly is an altogether different concept
than floe.


Any connection to the rhyme:
Flee Fly Floe Flumb I smell the blood of a Danish man?
vbg

Self evidently now, you just made it:-) The direct template of
this new expression would of course be King Lear,

My mind was drifting to Hamlet - it seemed somewhat more appropriate,
unless you were to prefer I identify you as Claudius? g

I am sure you also recognised my misquoting of the rhyme.

Philologically, there are traces of Old Friesian in all this, with some
masculine inflections mistakenly merged with the root form at some
intermediate point, and then suffering a confusing agglutination of a
conventional gender differentiation, which is disregarded in modern
English where the ancient doubling of the masculine form is now taken as
a gender-neutral default.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

Xref: 127.0.0.1 uk.business.agricultu104029 sci.agricultu61511

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:20 -0000, David P
wrote:
Indeed. One wonders if the smell was as strong in 1996 when UK had in
1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

and you never did answer my direct questions did you?

But let us not dance that dance again. My wits are not nimble enough to
avoid treading on the toes of your meanderings.

You shouldn't worry about that. Just speak your mind.

Torsten Brinch wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:20 -0000, David P
wrote:
Indeed. One wonders if the smell was as strong in 1996 when UK
had in
1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so
why
couldn't the farmers.

and you never did answer my direct questions did you?

But let us not dance that dance again. My wits are not nimble enough
to
avoid treading on the toes of your meanderings.

You shouldn't worry about that. Just speak your mind.

looks like you are not going to get an answer


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:15:45 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In article , Torsten Brinch
writes
The McSharry reforms were in error AIU and quickly adjusted in
subsequent years.

Meaning no comment on McSharry in either way , may I ask which errors
and adjustments you are referring to?

How did I know I would regret saying this? Someone else may have proper
details, I am merely reporting memories of agricultural magazine comment
of some 7/8 years back.

When you said error in relation to McSharry I got to thinking of the
inability to negotiate any effective capping into the system when it
was created. Without that, the reform turned rather predictably into
an effective instrument to make big farmers outcompete the small
farmers. There was an interview with McSharry, he explained it got
that way, because the policy had to be acceptable to farmer's
organisations, e.g. NFU, which are effectively run by big farmers.