David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic
pasture?


you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have
shown
no evidence that there is such an effect

I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything.


Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge
this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal
pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn.

It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth.

The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one
in soy. Note clover is Genista.


Dave
Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed
any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some
farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I
posted how it reduces fertility.

My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced
animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus,
in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic
pasture?


you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have
shown
no evidence that there is such an effect

I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything.

Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed
any affect on them?

I have heard of no problems in the UK with this

Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some
farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals?

Not legally in the EU

Jim Webster

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...

That is what I was trying to convey.

It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There
must
be some of that knowledge in the genome, too.


no, it is purely a matter of categorisation on our part. Diseases kill
their
hosts, parasites don't necessarily. It is our labelling, not anything
the
organism is doing

Viruses don't even multiply without a host.

I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep
alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping
genes faster.

what memory bank?

The `junk DNA'.

so you don't know


Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are
getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of
hosts
you just find more

Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last
one of the previous species.

which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much a
minority

Jim Webster

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
In sci.med.nutrition Gordon Couger wrote:

But as Jim admitted there is no drug that could cure his father's MRSA
(methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus). It had to be left to
nature
to take its course with some nursing care (soap and water and
bandages).

Jim did no such thing I might not have made it clear.. Jims father was
too
weak for the drugs but didn't need them anyway because the bacteria were
taken out with an antiseptic wash (which will contain bacterialcides)
and
soap and water. The drugs were offered but he couldn't handle them

What drugs?

Here they said soap and water, that is a few years ago. Plus everyone
going near the infected people had to wear protective gear.

I don't know. They tried him on the standard antiboitics for dealing with
MRSA but after two days they had to take them off him because his appetitie
had totally gone and he was being permenantly sick. So they switched to the
antiseptic wash

Jim Webster

On 23 Jul 2003 05:41:47 GMT, Brian Sandle
wrote:

David Kendra wrote:

Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my knowledge
this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal
pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and corn.

I can't see why zearalenone could not be produced by Fusarium in red
clover hay, but you are right it is most commonly found in grain,
notably corn.

It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth.

That's not quite right, I think, but the anabolic substance, or 'beef
hormone' you are probably thinking of, common name "Zeranol", might
exist in metabolic relationship with zearalenone in animals fed
zearalenone-contaminated feed stuffs.

Another name for the beef hormone Zeranol is alpha-zearalanol, it
differs chemically from zearalenone by the absence of a double bond
and the reduction of a ketone group to hydroxyl in the large lactonic
ring of the general bicyclic structure of the 'zeranol-group' of
compounds.

Pharmacologically zeranol differs from zearalenone by having higher
estrogenic activity, indeed in some tests it has been found to be as
potent as high potency synthetics like (infamous) diethylstilbestrol
and ethinyl estradiol.

The use of zeranol is banned in production of meat in the EU, because
the EU as a matter of principle does not license the use of meat
production aids which pose carcinogenic/mutagenic risks to consumers.
In e.g. renegade USA such risks to consumers are accepted, and zeranol
is widely used in beef production there.

The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one
in soy. Note clover is Genista.


Dave
Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you noticed
any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't some
farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I
posted how it reduces fertility.

My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced
animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus,
in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do.

My first question would be if there is an extra estrogenic nature
of GM-produced animal feed. But, it would seem prudent to be open to
the possibility that some genetic engineering events in e.g. soy might
unintendedly result in elevated levels of phytoestrogens, or
phytoestrogen profile changes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Torsten Brinch"
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,nz.general,sci.agriculture
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: Paying to find non-GE wild corn?


: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
:
: Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get
unintended
: hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs. I can
: list several cases of food stuffs that case harm bred with conventional
: methods an you can't list a single one with GM methods.
:
: It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked
: to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to
: write 'varieties'?
:
: But then your argument would seem to assume that GM methods are not
: used in combination with conventional breeding methods. Which they
: are, and which I know that you know that they are.
:
: Or, it assumes that unintended food hazards from the conventional
: breeding methods involved are being tested for in GM varieties, but
: not in non-GM varieties of the same crop species -- and that you can
: name several such comparable non-GM varieties that cause harm because
: they were not similarly tested from the outset.
:
: And, that, I - erm - might well not think that you can. TO make things
: worse, were you to be inable to name them, that would put you in an
: awkward position with your argument, since in any given crop species
: that have GM varieties used for food currently, you would have had
: vastly more non-GM varieties to pick your alleged harm-causers from,
: than your opponent would have had GM-varieties.
:
: So, perhaps better; can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please.
:
Your free to ask anything you want. You can hold your breath until I do it
and see how blue you turn.

There is the case of the organic zucchini squash that had such high levels
of natural pesticides that it was harmful to humans. Bred by organic farmer
saving the seed the fared the best ageist the bugs.

There are several chili pepper that are not save to pick by hand because the
dust can cause serious inflation of the eyes, lungs and sinuses.

One cotton variety was bred to be insect resistant that turned out to have
levels of gossypol in the cotton seed cake too high for safety.

A celery was bread that caused dermatitis in the pickers before mechanical
picking

While not a breeding problem an organic hydroponic operation use Temic on
cucumbers which is strictly against label use and injured some people.
Showing not only the dishonesty but the stupidity of some organic producers.
That try to hold their product up as the standard for GM crops to match.

There have many more tons of GM crops that use GM methods shipped an
consumed in the last few year than there have organic crops in the last 20
years and I can find plenty of problems far less organic food than you can
many time the amount of GM food.

Gordon

"Hua Kul" wrote in message
om...
"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
...
"ddwyer" wrote in message
...
In article , Moosh:]
writes

Thanks Gordon, good point.
Not thet there's much more we can do about it than what we are doing.
If you want to convert a sheep or a bacteria to produce a bioactive
material such as a protein as a theraputic agent the way foreward is
not
to breed or mutate but GM a species. I.e. create a self replicating
factory. GM food has the potential to generate unwanted materials that
mutation and breeding cannot.
Unwanted material in foodstuffs will be the rare hazard that we wont
recognise until too late. Sadly whole populations will consume; not
just
the ill for whom the risk would ba acceptable.

Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get
unintended
hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred food stuffs.

Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their
regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation
requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides
which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research.

An out break that effects 120 peoples and 600,000 cows. Those are similar to
the deaths by lighting over the same period in the south west US. Why don't
you do something about he deaths from TB, whooping cough and preventable
diseases that are killing people in the UK that can be control for a
fraction of the cost of the news on BSE in a week.

Gordon

David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Epithelial cells.

It looks like the whole article is free to read:

Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235
URL:
http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355
size: 947 lines


The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to true
non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks.

I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be
frequently dividing.

Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

Why would estrogenic compounds have nothing to do with estrogenic
pasture?


you asked about the effects of estrogenic pasture on cattle, you have
shown
no evidence that there is such an effect

I asked you as one farmer whether you have noticed anything.


Zearalenone is a mycotoxin produced by the fungus Fusarium. To my
knowledge
this mycotoxin is not produced in red clover. The fungus is a cereal
pathogen and consequently zearalenone is found in wheat, barley and
corn.

It is sometimes fed to animals to increase their growth.

The estrogenic compounds in clover include genistein, same as one
in soy. Note clover is Genista.


Dave
Have you ever had cows on red clover to any extent? Then have you
noticed
any affect on them? Or the estrogenic mycotoxin zearallenone? Don't
some
farmers use it as a steroid to increase growth of animals? I think I
posted how it reduces fertility.

My question is whether the extra estrogenic nature of GM-produced
animal feed causes any changes in the developing embryo, or fetus,
in a similar fashion to what other estrogenic foods do.

I suppose this data is already available since many animal feeds already
contain GE products. The fact that no one is making a fuss would suggest
that the products perform similarly to their non-GE counterparts - which is
as would be expected since they are isogenic.

Dave

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Epithelial cells.

It looks like the whole article is free to read:

Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235
URL:

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355
size: 947 lines


The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to
true
non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks.

I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be
frequently dividing.

The epithelial cells in our guts do in deed divide albeit at a slower rate
than in vitro culture. Perhaps more importantly they are sluffed off after
a period of time as part of the natural process. Cells in culture can
survive for extended periods of time as long as fresh media is added and
toxic metabolites removed.

Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA.

I am well aware of work on foreign DNA. It is a natural process that takes
place all the time - so in essence, ALL DNA is GE!!!! What is your take on
this work?

Dave

Dave

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:46:40 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
From: "Torsten Brinch"

: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:31:21 GMT, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
:
: Due to testing in GM food stuffs we are much less likely to get
: unintended hazards in food stuffs than we are in in normally bred
: food stuffs ..
:
: It is not clear which testing you are referring to -- somewhat linked
: to it being unclear what you mean by 'food stuffs'. Maybe you meant to
: write 'varieties'? .. can I ask you to rephrase your argument, please.
:
Your free to ask anything you want. You can hold your breath until I do it
and see how blue you turn. snip

But, a request for clarification would not return mere rudeness,
assuming you mean to be taken seriously.

Hua Kul writes

Another naif who seems to believe that governments and their
regulations will save us. It was a British government regulation
requiring cattle to be heavily dosed with organophosphate pesticides
which may have triggered the BSE outbreak. See Mark Purdy's research.

Mark Purdy is an ignorant political organic farmer who rightly went to
jail for not dosing his cows to eradicate warbles, despite it being
approved by organic organisations.

His 'theory' is rubbish. Do a google search on "oz purdy bse" and you
will be able to find various threads.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
David Kendra wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Epithelial cells.

It looks like the whole article is free to read:

Linkname: J. Bact -- Ferguson et al. 184 (8): 2235
URL:

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/1...&pmid=11914355
size: 947 lines


The cells are artificially cultured in vitro. How do they compare to
true
non-dividing epithelial cells? Thanks.

I thought the epithelial cells, such as line the gut, would be
frequently dividing.

The epithelial cells in our guts do in deed divide albeit at a slower rate
than in vitro culture. Perhaps more importantly they are sluffed off after
a period of time as part of the natural process.

So have to divide quickly to be replacing.

Cells in culture can
survive for extended periods of time as long as fresh media is added and
toxic metabolites removed.

So first you complain there is a difference because you say they are
not living long, then you complain because you say they are living
long.

Much bigger differences in GM food.


Search for Schubbert R for some info on the fate of the foreign DNA.

I am well aware of work on foreign DNA. It is a natural process that takes
place all the time


So do you or do you not believe foreign DNA is brken down in the
gut?

- so in essence, ALL DNA is GE!!!!

DNA varies, but GE DNA cheats.

What is your take on
this work?


U.S. National Library of Medicine Gateway
On the fate of orally ingested foreign DNA in mice: chromosomal
association and placental transmission to the fetus.

Schubbert R, Hohlweg U, Renz D, Doerfler W.

Mol Gen Genet. 1998 Oct;259(6):569-76.
Institute of Genetics, University of Cologne, Koeln,
Germany.

We have previously shown that, when administered orally
to mice, bacteriophage M13 DNA, as a paradigm foreign DNA
without homology to the mouse genome, can persist in
fragmented form in the gastrointestinal tract, penetrate
the intestinal wall, and reach the nuclei of leukocytes,
spleen and liver cells. Similar results were obtained
when a plasmid containing the gene for the green
fluorescent protein (pEGFP-C1) was fed to mice. In
spleen, the foreign DNA was detected in covalent linkage
to DNA with a high degree of homology to mouse genes,
perhaps pseudogenes, or to authentic E. coli DNA. We have
now extended these studies to the offspring of mice that
were fed regularly during pregnancy with a daily dose of
50 microg of M13 or pEGFP-C1 DNA. Using the polymerase
chain reaction (PCR) or the fluorescent in situ
hybridization (FISH) method, foreign DNA, orally ingested
by pregnant mice, can be discovered in various organs of
fetuses and of newborn animals. The M13 DNA fragments
have a length of about 830 bp. In various organs of the
mouse fetus, clusters of cells contain foreign DNA as
revealed by FISH. The foreign DNA is invariably located
in the nuclei. We have never found all cells of the fetus
to be transgenic for the foreign DNA. This distribution
pattern argues for a transplacental pathway rather than
for germline transmission which might be expected only
after long-time feeding regimens. In rare cells of three
different fetuses, whose mothers have been fed with M 13
DNA during gestation, the foreign DNA was detected by
FISH in association with both chromatids. Is maternally
ingested foreign DNA a potential mutagen for the
developing fetus?


And I bet if there is any more info on this it will be unlikely to
get published easily. Who goes out bragging about their troubles?

Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...

That is what I was trying to convey.

It is subtle since if you kill all of your hosts you die, too. There
must
be some of that knowledge in the genome, too.


no, it is purely a matter of categorisation on our part. Diseases kill
their
hosts, parasites don't necessarily. It is our labelling, not anything
the
organism is doing

Viruses don't even multiply without a host.

I presume you look up your memory bank to remind yourself how to keep
alive. Do not kill every last host. If there is stress start swopping
genes faster.

what memory bank?

The `junk DNA'.

so you don't know

So you don't read Moosh:]'s articles, I have to economize somehwe
****
From: "Moosh:]"
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,nz.general,sci.agriculture
Subject: Paying to find non-GE wild corn?
Message-ID:
Lines: 89
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:54:52 GMT
[...]
In the junk DNA there is just about
everything that has been tried, if it hasn't been harmlessly corrupted
over the aeons.
[...]
****



Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are
getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out of
hosts
you just find more

Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last
one of the previous species.

which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much a
minority

Lots of viruses tend to be specific to certain classes of hosts.

Calici haemorrhagic disease jumped to rabbits in 1970s in China, though I
don't know why.

Using pig organs in humans in concert with GM is a risk that pig viruses
will jump and spread through the human population.

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Where is there any evidence of this. I think you are
getting carried away with the classifications again. If you run out
of
hosts
you just find more

Jump species? You would have to do that before you killed every last
one of the previous species.

which isn't a problem, those who prey on only one species are very much
a
minority

Lots of viruses tend to be specific to certain classes of hosts.

yes, classes of hosts are normally groups of species


Calici haemorrhagic disease jumped to rabbits in 1970s in China, though I
don't know why.


it is comparatively regular occurrance. I don't think I have heard of a
single virus, bacteria or other parasite which has become extinct due to the
extinction of its sole prey species.

Jim Webster