The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:

correction: "has" for "hasn't" third time lucky maybe

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...
When is it safe to set fire to a bonfire that's been gathering all
winter without risk of it still being a home to a hedgehog? It's rather
big to move.


The standard advice is not before early April
depending on the weather.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The best advice would probably be to poke around into the base
with a long thin cane maybe with a tennis ball stuck on the end
at the very least.

If the bonfire is large enough, and yet not near enough to next
doors garden to set fire to that, then maybe you wouldn't
be creating too much of a nuisance by leaving a radio
next to the heap and playing very loud music for a couple
of hours before hand as well. (Not sure if this is intended
to be serious or not,)

" If the weather changes during hibernation, or the animal is
disturbed, it will wake and may move on to build a new nest."


Thanks for this detailed and interesting advice. I was intrigued by the
idea of the music and might just try it.

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

One feature of hedgehogs is that they really are the end of
their own particular food chain. While many of the things they
eat, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, slugs and snails
are the sorts of things humans are already trying to
poison. Either deliberately or maybe through not being able to
be sufficiently selective. So maybe these hedgehogs in their
turn, came across dead slugs or beetles etc. and rather than
posting their experiences on UseNet as you did, they eat them
instead, with the resulting dire consequences.

While going in the other direction, given that there are no
carrion in the UK - vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -
coupled with the hedgehog's spiny coat, may mean that their
remains may sit around on the surface for a relatively long
time. The website gives them an average lifespan in the wild
of just two years. And so your finds may be unexceptional.
Just that they happened to die there, than somewhere else.
It also suggests that there may have been a growth in
the local population, maybe.

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car and the use of pesticides, the only limit to their
reproduction - given their ability to hibernate presumably must
have been scarcity of food. So that prior to the arrival of the
motor car and pesticides, there were presumably many more hedgehogs
around than there are today - but correspondingly far fewer slugs
and snails.


michael adams

....

http://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/facts/hedge.htm

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:58:28 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

One feature of hedgehogs is that they really are the end of
their own particular food chain. While many of the things they
eat, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, slugs and snails
are the sorts of things humans are already trying to
poison. Either deliberately or maybe through not being able to
be sufficiently selective. So maybe these hedgehogs in their
turn, came across dead slugs or beetles etc. and rather than
posting their experiences on UseNet as you did, they eat them
instead, with the resulting dire consequences.

While going in the other direction, given that there are no
carrion in the UK - vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -
coupled with the hedgehog's spiny coat, may mean that their
remains may sit around on the surface for a relatively long
time. The website gives them an average lifespan in the wild
of just two years. And so your finds may be unexceptional.
Just that they happened to die there, than somewhere else.
It also suggests that there may have been a growth in
the local population, maybe.

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car and the use of pesticides, the only limit to their
reproduction - given their ability to hibernate presumably must
have been scarcity of food. So that prior to the arrival of the
motor car and pesticides, there were presumably many more hedgehogs
around than there are today - but correspondingly far fewer slugs
and snails.


michael adams


"Gypsies eat them covered in mud, y'know"

How many times have I heard that yet have yet to meet anyone who has
eaten one. Maybe they died ((

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

One feature of hedgehogs is that they really are the end of
their own particular food chain. While many of the things they
eat, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, slugs and snails
are the sorts of things humans are already trying to
poison. Either deliberately or maybe through not being able to
be sufficiently selective. So maybe these hedgehogs in their
turn, came across dead slugs or beetles etc. and rather than
posting their experiences on UseNet as you did, they eat them
instead, with the resulting dire consequences.

While going in the other direction, given that there are no
carrion in the UK - vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -
coupled with the hedgehog's spiny coat, may mean that their
remains may sit around on the surface for a relatively long
time. The website gives them an average lifespan in the wild
of just two years. And so your finds may be unexceptional.
Just that they happened to die there, than somewhere else.
It also suggests that there may have been a growth in
the local population, maybe.

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car and the use of pesticides, the only limit to their
reproduction - given their ability to hibernate presumably must
have been scarcity of food. So that prior to the arrival of the
motor car and pesticides, there were presumably many more hedgehogs
around than there are today - but correspondingly far fewer slugs
and snails.


Don't think it's valid to assume hedgehogs in the UK had no predators prior
to the arrival of the car and pesticides (which strictly speaking aren't
predators, although they are causes of death) because natural predators,
e.g. badgers and foxes have been around far longer than that. Badgers can
and do kill and eat adult hedgehogs, regardless of spines, and foxes are
significant predators of immature hedgehogs, and, according to reports, a
few adult ones. When the fox population of Bristol fell following the mange
outbreak, the hedgehog population was observed to increase.

IIRC, land's hedgehog 'carrying capacity' was found (by a team led by Dr
Doncaster, Southampton University) to be more or less proportional to its
earthworm population. Just the sort of 'main course' favoured by badgers,
too. I believe the increase in the badger population, which resulted from
its protection, and the increase in urban fox populations have probably been
detrimental to hedgehog numbers, just as have RTAs, poisonings, drownings in
cattle grids and steep sided pools, starvation due to hogs getting their
heads caught in carelessly discarded food containers, careless strimming of
vegetation concealing a hedgehog, the accidental burning of hedgehogs in
bonfires, etc.

It's amazing they have managed to survive at all, given the hazards they
face.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with
no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs
had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

One feature of hedgehogs is that they really are the end of
their own particular food chain. While many of the things they
eat, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, slugs and snails
are the sorts of things humans are already trying to
poison. Either deliberately or maybe through not being able to
be sufficiently selective. So maybe these hedgehogs in their
turn, came across dead slugs or beetles etc. and rather than
posting their experiences on UseNet as you did, they eat them
instead, with the resulting dire consequences.

While going in the other direction, given that there are no
carrion in the UK - vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -
coupled with the hedgehog's spiny coat, may mean that their
remains may sit around on the surface for a relatively long
time. The website gives them an average lifespan in the wild
of just two years. And so your finds may be unexceptional.
Just that they happened to die there, than somewhere else.
It also suggests that there may have been a growth in
the local population, maybe.

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car and the use of pesticides, the only limit to their
reproduction - given their ability to hibernate presumably must
have been scarcity of food. So that prior to the arrival of the
motor car and pesticides, there were presumably many more hedgehogs
around than there are today - but correspondingly far fewer slugs
and snails.


Don't think it's valid to assume hedgehogs in the UK had no predators
prior
to the arrival of the car and pesticides (which strictly speaking aren't
predators, although they are causes of death)

Indeed I was thinking of putting it in Inverted commas. Except that

....

Predation -
The action of plundering or pillaging; depredation; rapacious or
exploitative behaviour.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Oxford Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.

quote

Its the unconscious exploitative element that makes it even worse IMO.


michael adams

....

because natural predators,
e.g. badgers and foxes have been around far longer than that. Badgers can
and do kill and eat adult hedgehogs, regardless of spines, and foxes are
significant predators of immature hedgehogs, and, according to reports, a
few adult ones. When the fox population of Bristol fell following the
mange
outbreak, the hedgehog population was observed to increase.

IIRC, land's hedgehog 'carrying capacity' was found (by a team led by Dr
Doncaster, Southampton University) to be more or less proportional to its
earthworm population. Just the sort of 'main course' favoured by badgers,
too. I believe the increase in the badger population, which resulted from
its protection, and the increase in urban fox populations have probably
been
detrimental to hedgehog numbers, just as have RTAs, poisonings, drownings
in
cattle grids and steep sided pools, starvation due to hogs getting their
heads caught in carelessly discarded food containers, careless strimming
of
vegetation concealing a hedgehog, the accidental burning of hedgehogs in
bonfires, etc.

It's amazing they have managed to survive at all, given the hazards they
face.

"Dave the exTrailer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:58:28 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Janet Galpin" wrote in message
...

On the topic of hedgehogs, I found I think three dead hedgehogs at
different times and in different parts of the garden last season with
no
obvious signs as to why they had died. I could only think perhaps that
the neighbouring farmer had put down rat poison which the hedgehogs had
taken in. I don't know whether this can be a significant cause of
hedgehog deaths. Or reading the Wildlife Trust page you suggested I
suppose pesticide is another dismaying possibility.

Janet G

One feature of hedgehogs is that they really are the end of
their own particular food chain. While many of the things they
eat, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, slugs and snails
are the sorts of things humans are already trying to
poison. Either deliberately or maybe through not being able to
be sufficiently selective. So maybe these hedgehogs in their
turn, came across dead slugs or beetles etc. and rather than
posting their experiences on UseNet as you did, they eat them
instead, with the resulting dire consequences.

While going in the other direction, given that there are no
carrion in the UK - vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -
coupled with the hedgehog's spiny coat, may mean that their
remains may sit around on the surface for a relatively long
time. The website gives them an average lifespan in the wild
of just two years. And so your finds may be unexceptional.
Just that they happened to die there, than somewhere else.
It also suggests that there may have been a growth in
the local population, maybe.

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car and the use of pesticides, the only limit to their
reproduction - given their ability to hibernate presumably must
have been scarcity of food. So that prior to the arrival of the
motor car and pesticides, there were presumably many more hedgehogs
around than there are today - but correspondingly far fewer slugs
and snails.


michael adams


"Gypsies eat them covered in mud, y'know"


More hedgehog stuff including illuminated manuscript and
medieaval carving plus cooking method on here -

http://hedgehogcentral.com/myths.shtml


spoiler to hedgehog cooking method


spoiler


spoiler


spoiler


spoiler

spoiler


spoiler


spoiler


spoiler


The hedgehog is covered in clay then this hardens
during cooking - and enables the skin and spines
to be removed all in one.

Although whether the animal is dressed - giblets
removed, prior to cooking dunno.

Not an urban myth anyway.


michael adams

....

How many times have I heard that yet have yet to meet anyone who has
eaten one. Maybe they died ((

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car

You're mistaken. Both badgers and foxes can unroll, kill and eat
hedgehogs and I've seen dogs do it too. Birds of prey here are often
seen eating roadkill hedgehogs.



So, they are not "the end of their own
food chain" either..whatever that means!

Janet.

Badgers, foxes, and birds of prey can catch things by eating
hedgehogs then.

And unless anything eats them in turn then they're the end of
their own food chain.

The food chain stretches from the first thing to be eaten - a wheat
grain say - which could carry an infectious pathogen - all the way
through to the highest order organism which isn't itself a food
source. Quite often homo sapiens.

That's the general idea anyway.

You were going so well up until that point as well.



michael adams

....

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car

You're mistaken. Both badgers and foxes can unroll, kill and eat
hedgehogs and I've seen dogs do it too. Birds of prey here are often
seen eating roadkill hedgehogs.



So, they are not "the end of their own
food chain" either..whatever that means!

Janet.

Badgers, foxes, and birds of prey can catch things by eating
hedgehogs then.

True. Some parasites like tapeworm can survive in different species
of host. Others can't (like the fleas specific to hedgehogs). Toxins may
affect one species but not another, due to differences in physiology.

And unless anything eats them in turn then they're the end of
their own food chain.

Wild animals that die of any cause, are usually eaten by other
species, from crows to rats maggots and worms.

The food chain stretches from the first thing to be eaten - a wheat
grain say - which could carry an infectious pathogen - all the way
through to the highest order organism which isn't itself a food
source. Quite often homo sapiens.

Human corpses which are returned to the earth are also a food source
to other organisms.

All organic matter that isn't burned is broken down into bacteria
and similar micro-organisms by fungi etc evetually. Maybe excepting
bone etc. Bacteria and such like are essential for nitogen fixation.
It isn't a true cycle however because the whole process depends on
photosynthesis from sun-light which isn't returned to the Sun.
The food chain I was more concerned with anyway, was the pathogenic
food chain. Slugs eat slug pellets and die, hedgehogs eat slugs and
die, whatever eats those hedgehogs might die. Pathogenic food chains
are always more newsworthy ie heavy metal-plankton-tuna-humans,
sheep scrapie rendered sheep - cattle BSE, totally unproven human
vCJD epidimiomically highly unlikely IMO


You were going so well up until that point as well.

If only I could say the same of you. You revealed the extent of your
misunderstanding when you wrote " there are no carrion in the UK -
vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -"


Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for, to get all that stuff cleared up pronto. The odd flat hedghog and
cat maybe. But that's more Tom and Jerry than carrion I'd say. Road-kill
and recipes for the prepartion therof, are usually more the province
of our transatlantic cousins I believe.

A bit late as well, if you don't mind me saying so. Dredging stuff
up from previous posts, smacks of desperation in anyone's book.




michael adams




Janet.

....

In article , michael adams
writes

there are no carrion in the UK -
vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -"


Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for,


Blimey! Your council clears up any animal that's killed on the road as
soon as it's died?
I bet they've had to cut a lot of essential services to do that!
I'm always seeing dead hedgehogs, the odd badger, once a stoat,
squirrels, blackbirds etc at the side of roads in Buckinghamshire.
What council is yours then? Why do they give it such priority?

janet



--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:

While given that they had no predators at all until the arrival
of the motor car

You're mistaken. Both badgers and foxes can unroll, kill and
eat
hedgehogs and I've seen dogs do it too. Birds of prey here are often
seen eating roadkill hedgehogs.



So, they are not "the end of their own
food chain" either..whatever that means!

Janet.

Badgers, foxes, and birds of prey can catch things by eating
hedgehogs then.

True. Some parasites like tapeworm can survive in different species
of host. Others can't (like the fleas specific to hedgehogs). Toxins may
affect one species but not another, due to differences in physiology.

And unless anything eats them in turn then they're the end of
their own food chain.

Wild animals that die of any cause, are usually eaten by other
species, from crows to rats maggots and worms.

The food chain stretches from the first thing to be eaten - a wheat
grain say - which could carry an infectious pathogen - all the way
through to the highest order organism which isn't itself a food
source. Quite often homo sapiens.

Human corpses which are returned to the earth are also a food source
to other organisms.

All organic matter that isn't burned is broken down into bacteria
and similar micro-organisms by fungi etc evetually. Maybe excepting
bone etc. Bacteria and such like are essential for nitogen fixation.
It isn't a true cycle however because the whole process depends on
photosynthesis from sun-light which isn't returned to the Sun.
The food chain I was more concerned with anyway, was the pathogenic
food chain. Slugs eat slug pellets and die, hedgehogs eat slugs and
die, whatever eats those hedgehogs might die. Pathogenic food chains
are always more newsworthy ie heavy metal-plankton-tuna-humans,
sheep scrapie rendered sheep - cattle BSE, totally unproven human
vCJD epidimiomically highly unlikely IMO


You were going so well up until that point as well.

If only I could say the same of you. You revealed the extent of your
misunderstanding when you wrote " there are no carrion in the UK -
vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -"


Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for, to get all that stuff cleared up pronto. The odd flat hedghog and
cat maybe. But that's more Tom and Jerry than carrion I'd say. Road-kill
and recipes for the prepartion therof, are usually more the province
of our transatlantic cousins I believe.

A bit late as well, if you don't mind me saying so. Dredging stuff
up from previous posts, smacks of desperation in anyone's book.

have you ever heard of Carrion Crows?
Do you know what they are famous for eating?






michael adams




Janet.

....

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
In article , michael adams
writes

there are no carrion in the UK -
vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -"


Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for,


Blimey! Your council clears up any animal that's killed on the road as
soon as it's died?
I bet they've had to cut a lot of essential services to do that!
I'm always seeing dead hedgehogs, the odd badger, once a stoat,
squirrels, blackbirds etc at the side of roads in Buckinghamshire.
What council is yours then? Why do they give it such priority?

janet

West London. Its so flattened it would be of no use to any scavengers
anyway. And there are certainly no dead animals lying in the gutter
or on the pavement.


michael adams






--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...

Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for, to get all that stuff cleared up pronto. The odd flat hedghog and
cat maybe. But that's more Tom and Jerry than carrion I'd say. Road-kill
and recipes for the prepartion therof, are usually more the province
of our transatlantic cousins I believe.

A bit late as well, if you don't mind me saying so. Dredging stuff
up from previous posts, smacks of desperation in anyone's book.

have you ever heard of Carrion Crows?

Do you know what they are famous for eating?


Indeed. They eat carrion. Among other things.

Carrion, insects, worms, seeds, fruit and any scraps.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/c...crow/index.asp


And there are carrion to be found in all sorts of locations.

Including the pages of dictionaries.

quote

carrion /karn/ n. & a. ME. [AN, ONFr. caroi(g)ne, OFr.
charoigne (mod. charogne) f. Proto-Romance, f. L caro flesh.]
A n. ME-M18.


1 A dead body; a carcass.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Oxford Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

/quote
.......

And in the absence of which, in towns they'll settle for worms etc.

They do fly around a bit as well, you see.



michael adams

....

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...

Not round where I live there isn't Janet. No dead animals lying around
and no vultures flying overhead. That's what we pay Our Council Tax
for, to get all that stuff cleared up pronto. The odd flat hedghog and
cat maybe. But that's more Tom and Jerry than carrion I'd say. Road-kill
and recipes for the prepartion therof, are usually more the province
of our transatlantic cousins I believe.

A bit late as well, if you don't mind me saying so. Dredging stuff
up from previous posts, smacks of desperation in anyone's book.

have you ever heard of Carrion Crows?



If only I could say the same of you. You revealed the extent of your
misunderstanding when you wrote " there are no carrion in the UK -
vultures etc. not so far as I know at least -"


Sorry -

No vultures then. O.K ?

Definitely no vultures anyway.



Do you know what they are famous for eating?


Indeed. They eat carrion. Among other things.

Carrion, insects, worms, seeds, fruit and any scraps.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/c...crow/index.asp


And there are carrion to be found in all sorts of locations.

Including the pages of dictionaries.

quote

carrion /karn/ n. & a. ME. [AN, ONFr. caroi(g)ne, OFr.
charoigne (mod. charogne) f. Proto-Romance, f. L caro flesh.]
A n. ME-M18.


1 A dead body; a carcass.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Oxford Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

/quote
.......

And in the absence of which, in towns they'll settle for worms etc.

They do fly around a bit as well, you see.



michael adams

....

"michael adams" wrote in message
...
"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...


snip



They do fly around a bit as well, you see.


did you find that out by googling or did you deduce it from first
principles?



michael adams

...

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
...

"michael adams" wrote in message
...
"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...


snip



They do fly around a bit as well, you see.


did you find that out by googling or did you deduce it from first
principles?

....

Surely that's immaterial for present purposes ?

I only need to be guessing.

It's whether you accept it to be correct or not yourself,
that would be more relevant.

You would hardly take the claim on trust yourself, now would you?

If in fact the question of whether they do fly around or not
itself had any relevance. Which it only would, if all the carrion
on which they fed were all situated outside of the UK.

Which you must admit is not logically impossible, at least.

(Two Canada Geese on the canal bank on Saturday, when I went
to feed the pair of swans. Very bold birds CG. Which was nice)

In any case, seeing to persuade others that needlessly incinerating
hedgehogs in bonfires is something to be avoided wherever possible,
is IMO, a good thing.

And provided no other harm is being done, giving the possibly mistaken
impression that the hedgehog's only real enemy is man, can do nothing
but inculcate feelings of heightened responsibilty in those with an
concern for animal welfare who might otherwise needlessly incinerate
hedgehogs simply through thoughtlesness. As it happens, IMO the OP
needed to be persuaded to rebuild her bonfire, but that's unlikely
to happen now.

It's also as well to recognise the types of people you may come
across, on these NewsGroups

quote

Wednesday, 29 October, 2003

Hedgehog cull 'had support'

A majority of people in Scotland supported the cull of hedgehogs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in the Western Isles, independent research has suggested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3222567.stm

/quote

hth


michael adams


....