"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
| George.com wrote:
| A question for those who **** on their compost heap.
|
| Please don't be vulgar, George.com.

This is uk.rec.gardening. We call a spade a spade.

According to one unassailable Internet authority, that phrase
originated from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough".
It was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas
Udall in his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade
[...] a spade".

above from -

http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml

The interesting thing to me in all this, is that there are no
actual euphemisms, so far as I know, for figs, troughs, or spades.

You have no choice but to call things figs or troughs or spades.

Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
something else ?

In which case the point of the saying surely, is that you should
in fact use euphemisms for things after all. I think.


michael adams

....



You may prefer
to call it micturation, but ****ing is something that we all do every
day. And many of us **** on our compost heaps :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


And some of us even **** on our own bonfires:-)


I know a group of cave diggers whose generator caught fire .....
--
Kay

H Ryder writes
It's full of PPs and BA's :~))

what is a PP? and do you mean "bachelor of arts"?

Pork pie and brown ale
--
Kay

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
| George.com wrote:
| A question for those who **** on their compost heap.
|
| Please don't be vulgar, George.com.

This is uk.rec.gardening. We call a spade a spade.

According to one unassailable Internet authority, that phrase
originated from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough".
It was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas
Udall in his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade
[...] a spade".

above from -

http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml

The interesting thing to me in all this, is that there are no
actual euphemisms, so far as I know, for figs, troughs, or spades.

You have no choice but to call things figs or troughs or spades.

I'm a straightforrard Lancashire lad,
And I worked down the mine like me dad
Call a shovel a spade, for that's how I'm made
I'm a straightforrard Lancashire lad.

Steve

K wrote:
"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" writes


And some of us even **** on our own bonfires:-)


I know a group of cave diggers whose generator caught fire .....

I was, sadly, not present the day a group of fellow-higher-primates
went for the sustained-fire GPMG record: with x to the power n rounds
of ammunition going through, there was only one way to keep the barrel
reasonably cool...

--
Mike.

On 8/6/06 21:58, in article , "Janet
Baraclough" wrote:

The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:



You have no choice but to call things figs or troughs or spades.

Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
something else ?

Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
entendre.

Spade = black person.

Janet.

It still is in Italian.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(email address on website)

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:



You have no choice but to call things figs or troughs or spades.

Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
something else ?

Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
entendre.

Spade = black person.

Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
I believe.

In fact I imagine all three were sexual ephemisms.

The "spade" was what you used in the "trough".

The statement - " I call a spade a spade" is rather
paradoxical.

As it should really be "I call the male sexual organ a spade"
- because I use euphemisms.

Which is precisely the opposite of what's being claimed.



michael adams

....








Janet.


--
Isle of Arran Open Gardens weekend 21,22,23 July 2006
5 UKP three-day adult ticket (funds go to island charities) buys entry
to 26 private gardens

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| Spade = black person.
|
| Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
| was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
| I believe.

Do you have a reference for that? The OED has nothing before 1928.
It doesn't even have a reference to the card suit before 1598.

| In fact I imagine all three were sexual ephemisms.
|
| The "spade" was what you used in the "trough".

You have a, er, fertile imagination. Some evidence would help to
convince others.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Janet Baraclough writes:
|
| Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
| something else ?
|
| Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
| 500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
| not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
| entendre.

If you have references, I suggest passing them on to the OED. There
aren't any references to that use, but there are to some of its
derivations - including the 'fig' gesture, which is obviously
sexual - and it refers to the belief that it had that use in Italian.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Sacha
writes

Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
entendre.

Spade = black person.

Janet.

It still is in Italian.

What spade or fig?

--
Judith Lea

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| Spade = black person.
|
| Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
| was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
| I believe.

Do you have a reference for that? The OED has nothing before 1928.


A reference to what ?

The phrase "as black as the ace of spades"

....

It doesn't even have a reference to the card suit before 1598.

....

Er no Nick, you seem to be missing the point.

References to dark skinned people as spades i.e Colin McInnes
"City of Spades" c. 195* clearly came after the reference was
already established to the card suit.

Before the card suit, there were no everyday objects caled spades
which were characteristically black in colour.

This topic didn't feature in the recent Victoria Coren telly prog
by any chance did it ? No wonder you let your attention wander.

....


| In fact I imagine all three were sexual ephemisms.
|
| The "spade" was what you used in the "trough".

You have a, er, fertile imagination. Some evidence would help to
convince others.

....

I'm not particaularly interested in convincing anyone.

Euphemisms perform a very useful function in society.

The words spade and trough clearly functioned as euphamisms,
and sexual topics have always been a fertile ground for
euphamisms. Both on grounds of delicacy and as a source of
ribaldry and double entendres.

The essence of good manners Nick, is not to inadvertantly make other
people feel uncomfortable when there's no immediate need.

Whether you or I happen to like it or not, some people really do
to feel uncomfortable over the use of terms such as "****ing".

In such circumstances only the most boorish individual would
insist on their right to persist.

Although perhaps by not citing as a precedent, the clearly
tautological - or self contradictory - depending on the
original intention - "I call a spade a spade ".

hth


michael adams

you troll me at your peril

....







Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:


In article ,
Janet Baraclough writes:
|
| Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
| something else ?
|
| Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
| 500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
| not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
| entendre.

If you have references, I suggest passing them on to the OED. There
aren't any references to that use, but there are to some of its
derivations - including the 'fig' gesture, which is obviously
sexual - and it refers to the belief that it had that use in Italian.

Shakespeare used the verbal put-down term " fig me like a Spaniard"
IOW, it wasn't just a rude gesture, "fig" was also a spoken sexual
vulgarity understood by his English audience.

He also had Iago say "Virtue? A fig" , which was undoubtedly another
double entendre


Janet.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| | Spade = black person.
| |
| | Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
| | was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
| | I believe.
|
| Do you have a reference for that? The OED has nothing before 1928.
|
| A reference to what ?
|
| The phrase "as black as the ace of spades"

That would do, certainly, provided that it was dated 1589. Please
reread what YOU posted about 1589.

| It doesn't even have a reference to the card suit before 1598.
|
| Er no Nick, you seem to be missing the point.
|
| References to dark skinned people as spades i.e Colin McInnes
| "City of Spades" c. 195* clearly came after the reference was
| already established to the card suit.

I am unaware that Colin McInnes was writing in 1589, but I learn
something new every day.

....

Digital dyslexia must put you at a marked disadvantage as a
mathematician I'd have thought.

You have my deepest sympathy.

....



As I said, the OED has a reference to "spade" meaning "negro" in 1928,
which I am quite happy to agree probably came after the expression
"as black as the ace of spades", though I have no reference to prove
the point. The issue is your claim for a date of 1589.

....

1542 then. But then I'm no mathematician.

In answer to your first use of the phrase -

"We call a spade a spade."

I posted the following - (to save you wearing your fingers any nearer
to the bone I should perhaps add that "unassailable Internet authority"
is intended with tongue firmly in cheek)


michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...


This is uk.rec.gardening. We call a spade a spade.

According to one unassailable Internet authority, that phrase
originated from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough".
It was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas
Udall in his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade
[...] a spade".

above from -

http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml


I notice you have yet to explain precisely what you mean to
imply by your the use of phrase -

"We call a spade a spade."

Unless you can describe any circumstance in which anyone could
possibly be offended by the use of the term "spade", I fail to
see the point of stating the blindingly obvious.

Anyone who decided to call a spade a fork, or a spade a rake would
very soon find themselves at a marked disadvantage, I'd have thought.

Wouldn't you ?

...


| This topic didn't feature in the recent Victoria Coren telly prog
| by any chance did it ? No wonder you let your attention wander.

Who is Victoria Coren? Never heard of her.


She's the daughter of Alan Coren.


michael adams

....



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| Digital dyslexia must put you at a marked disadvantage as a
| mathematician I'd have thought.
|
| You have my deepest sympathy.

You're trolling AGAIN. Please desist. Or at least be a bit more
subtle.

| I posted the following - (to save you wearing your fingers any nearer
| to the bone I should perhaps add that "unassailable Internet authority"
| is intended with tongue firmly in cheek)

You also posted the following. I have included enough references
that you should be able to track the original down. If you read what
you wrote, you will see that you claimed 1589.


Newsgroups: uk.rec.gardening
Subject: ****ing on compost
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:12:15 +0100
Organization: is pointless
Lines: 57
Message-ID:
X-Trace: individual.net /R+Snevw4cEgLopuinQsUgxotzXfsF9lbdw5xDlf1aev+PmJVj

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "michael adams" contains these words:



You have no choice but to call things figs or troughs or spades.

Or is the point that figs, troughs, and spades, are euphemisms for
something else ?

Fig certainly is ; it was a vulgar term for female sex organ, at least
500 years ago, in Italian, Spanish and English. "I don't give a fig" did
not refer to fruit, and the modesty "fig leaf" on nudes was a double
entendre.

Spade = black person.

Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
I believe.

In fact I imagine all three were sexual ephemisms.

The "spade" was what you used in the "trough".

The statement - " I call a spade a spade" is rather
paradoxical.

As it should really be "I call the male sexual organ a spade"
- because I use euphemisms.

Which is precisely the opposite of what's being claimed.

On 9/6/06 16:21, in article , "michael adams"
wrote:


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

snip
Who is Victoria Coren? Never heard of her.


She's the daughter of Alan Coren.


Who has been very ill in the South of France, sadly. I hope he's recovering
because he's one of the funniest writers around.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(email address on website)