Why are limes seedless and lemons not?

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:21:49 +0100, Angela Fuller wrote:

|!Why are limes seedless and lemons not?

They are different cultivars both of the citrus family.
When I last made lime marmalade the Limes had a few seeds
--
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On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:05:54 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:21:49 +0100, Angela Fuller wrote:

|!Why are limes seedless and lemons not?

They are different cultivars both of the citrus family.

So they're hybrids? Have they (the limes) been specifically
cultivated to have no seeds? If so, why not do the same with
lemons?

When I last made lime marmalade the Limes had a few seeds

Strange. I've used about 20 limes over the past month or so
and not one had a seed in it.

Donna Frazier wrote:

So they're hybrids? Have they (the limes) been specifically
cultivated to have no seeds? If so, why not do the same with
lemons?

There are two main types of limes which seem to predominate the
market. The best for quantity of jiuce and size of fruit are those
commonly known as 'Persian' or 'Tahiti' limes. They are old hybrids
selected and grown widely over the past 100 - 150 years and have
relatively thin rinds and moderately acid flavour.

Their 'seedless' qualities are either due to them being entirely
sterile or self-sterile. Since the only way to get the same fruit
consistently is to propagate vegetatively using grafting or cuttings.
All trees in a plantation would be clones and being closely
related.they'd be self-incompatible resulting in seedless or near
seedless fruits.

The second type which is widely grown on account of its stronger, more
acid flavour is the 'Key lime', which does have seeds. The rind is
thicker and the fruits are smaller but very freely produced. Even
seeded limes have relatively few seeds, so I doubt if 'seedlessness'
is a determining quality in the selection of a variety for growing
commercially.

There is now a seedless lemon derived from 'Eureka', which is one of
the most widely grown varieties. I seem to remember a bit of a fuss
when it first became available a few years ago. As with limes the
presence of seeds does not impair the quality of the fruit or detract
from it, so I can't see the seedless version ousting the popular
conventional varieties in the near future. I think it was Sainsbury
that first stocked it, claiming that the days of worrying about lemon
pips were now over. But really, is it that much trouble to remove a
few seeds from a lemon? There's little real advantage for the
domestic market, but I suppose there is a point when processing tons
of fruit for juice production.

When I last made lime marmalade the Limes had a few seeds

Strange. I've used about 20 limes over the past month or so
and not one had a seed in it.

Depending upon source and time of year, grocers and supermarkets will
stock either type. Because of their stronger flavour and thicker
rinds, .Key limes make a better marmelade and in my opinion, lime
marmelade is the best.

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:31:48 +0100, Donna Frazier wrote:

|!On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:05:54 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|!
|!On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:21:49 +0100, Angela Fuller wrote:
|!
|!|!Why are limes seedless and lemons not?
|!
|!They are different cultivars both of the citrus family.
|!
|!So they're hybrids? Have they (the limes) been specifically
|!cultivated to have no seeds? If so, why not do the same with
|!lemons?

Man has been deliberately selecting and breeding the animals and vegetables
which we eat for over 6000 years, in some cases more, so non of them are in
anything like a natural state, where species generally do not interbreed
and generally if they interbreed generally have infertile offspring. The
difference between species, cultivars and hybrids has been thoroughly
confused by us.

|!
|!When I last made lime marmalade the Limes had a few seeds
|!
|!Strange. I've used about 20 limes over the past month or so
|!and not one had a seed in it.

I said *cultivars* not species. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivar
Examples of cultivars ate the dozen types of potato which you can buy
easily and *many* more which the supermarkets do not stock, these vary
widely in taste cooking quality etc. etc.
http://www.europotato.org/menu.php?

There are also many different cultivars of the orange, clematises, jaffa,
seville etc. etc. which also vary widely.
http://www.postharvest.com.au/Oranges_Cv.htm

If you buy your limes at one place, they may well have a seedless cultivar.
The plant breeders are forever working on ?improvements?

Google found me this:
http://www.uga.edu/fruit/citrus.html

Limes. ?Key' (syn. ?Mexican', ?West Indian') and ?Tahiti' (syn. Persian)
are the major cultivars. ?Key' limes are small, round, and seedy, and turn
yellow under Mediterranean conditions. ?Tahiti' limes are larger, green,
and shaped like lemons.

Lemons. The main cultivars are 'Lisbon' (oval to round, more pronounced
stylar end furrow and point) and 'Eureka' (oval, less pronounced stylar
end). 'Meyer' is a cold hardy, larger fruited cultivar used as an
ornamental or containerized plant, and is probably a lemon hybrid.
?Femminello' and ?Verna' are the major cultivars in Italy and Spain,
respectively.

--
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165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

In article .com,
"Dave Poole" writes:
| Donna Frazier wrote:
|
| So they're hybrids? Have they (the limes) been specifically
| cultivated to have no seeds? If so, why not do the same with
| lemons?
|
| There are two main types of limes which seem to predominate the
| market. The best for quantity of jiuce and size of fruit are those
| commonly known as 'Persian' or 'Tahiti' limes. They are old hybrids
| selected and grown widely over the past 100 - 150 years and have
| relatively thin rinds and moderately acid flavour.

If I have it right, they are also known as West African limes, and
the Americans know them as Mexican ones :-) God alone knows where
they originated! They are the usually the ones bought in the UK,
and the plant is definitely a tropical one - i.e. it needs fairly
constant warmth and high humidity.

| The second type which is widely grown on account of its stronger, more
| acid flavour is the 'Key lime', which does have seeds. The rind is
| thicker and the fruits are smaller but very freely produced. Even
| seeded limes have relatively few seeds, so I doubt if 'seedlessness'
| is a determining quality in the selection of a variety for growing
| commercially.

I haven't often seen these in the UK. I believe that 'Bearss' is a
seedless variety that dominate the USA, though I am not certain that
it is a Key lime. It certainly isn't the species that we are used
to in the UK.

| When I last made lime marmalade the Limes had a few seeds
|
| Strange. I've used about 20 limes over the past month or so
| and not one had a seed in it.
|
| Depending upon source and time of year, grocers and supermarkets will
| stock either type. Because of their stronger flavour and thicker
| rinds, .Key limes make a better marmelade and in my opinion, lime
| marmelade is the best.

As I said, I have very rarely bought any but the first-mentioned lime
in the UK, and the only seeded ones I have bought I am pretty sure
were of the same species. Also, my mother said that the ones in West
Africa usually had seeds.

What is their flavour like and how aromatic is their juice?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick wrote:

If I have it right, they are also known as West African limes, and
the Americans know them as Mexican ones :-) God alone knows where
they originated! They are the usually the ones bought in the UK,
and the plant is definitely a tropical one - i.e. it needs fairly
constant warmth and high humidity.

I was a bit wooly-headed when I rattled off my earlier comments and on
re-reading, see that I got the bit about thickness of rind back to
front. The 'Tahiti'/'Persian' lime has the thicker rind. Sorry about
that - was just waking up - dyslexic thinking ;-)

West Indian limes Nick a.k.a. Key lime, Mexican Key lime, bartender's
lime etc. etc. They may be grown in West Africa and therefore may be
dubbed that by some. It is thought to have originated in the Far East
and was brought to the Middle East by traders at some point in distant
history. From there it was taken to the New World by the Spanish and
Portuguese. The problem is that there are several Citrus referred to
as limes and since few sellers make any great distinction, the
confusion continues. I am fairly positive that you are referring to
'Key lime', which seems to be prevalent in many shops due to its
prolific nature and flavour.

I haven't often seen these in the UK. I believe that 'Bearss' is a
seedless variety that dominate the USA,

Bearss. is a seedless or near seedless form of the Tahiti/Persian
lime. As you mention, it is primarily sold in the US and is rarely
available here. The similar fruits of the Tahiti lime do make an
appearance - IIRC during early autumn for a month or so.

What is their flavour like and how aromatic is their juice?

Assuming you mean the 'Tahiti', the fruit is less acid and if ripened
in heat (ie a hot greenhouse/climate) it can become almost too sweet
for a lime. It is not as aromatic as the Key lime and is considered
to be a hybrid with Key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia) as one of the
parents and maybe one of the lemons as the other. I understand it was
first developed in the Middle East (hence 'Persian') and was moved
about during the 20th. century.

Which reminds me, I'm doing a fiery chilli for dinner. I'd better
pick a handful of limequats from the bush outside to go with it. Now
they are excellent substitutes for Key limes provided they are not too
ripe and they don't need the heat either - I've been picking them
throughout the winter. Unfortunately they are small, but at least you
get lots of them. You ought to try one in your greenhouse Nick. It is
the Eustis limonella - very easy, cold tolerant and utterly reliable
even as a small plant.

In article .com,
"Dave Poole" writes:
|
| I was a bit wooly-headed when I rattled off my earlier comments and on
| re-reading, see that I got the bit about thickness of rind back to
| front. The 'Tahiti'/'Persian' lime has the thicker rind. Sorry about
| that - was just waking up - dyslexic thinking ;-)
|
| West Indian limes Nick a.k.a. Key lime, Mexican Key lime, bartender's
| lime etc. etc. They may be grown in West Africa and therefore may be
| dubbed that by some. ... I am fairly positive that you are referring to
| 'Key lime', which seems to be prevalent in many shops due to its
| prolific nature and flavour.

Yes, that sounds right. But I am ABSOLUTELY certain that the form that
is standardly available in supermarkets and shops in the UK is seedless.
Limes with seeds in are definitely rare, here and now. They weren't
always.

| Assuming you mean the 'Tahiti', the fruit is less acid and if ripened
| in heat (ie a hot greenhouse/climate) it can become almost too sweet
| for a lime. It is not as aromatic as the Key lime and is considered
| to be a hybrid with Key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia) as one of the
| parents and maybe one of the lemons as the other. I understand it was
| first developed in the Middle East (hence 'Persian') and was moved
| about during the 20th. century.

Yes, that fits with my assumptions - though I had got the limes the
wrong way round! I have seen that only a couple of times in the UK and
never tried it.

| Which reminds me, I'm doing a fiery chilli for dinner. I'd better
| pick a handful of limequats from the bush outside to go with it. Now
| they are excellent substitutes for Key limes provided they are not too
| ripe and they don't need the heat either - I've been picking them
| throughout the winter. Unfortunately they are small, but at least you
| get lots of them. You ought to try one in your greenhouse Nick. It is
| the Eustis limonella - very easy, cold tolerant and utterly reliable
| even as a small plant.

Thanks. I may well. I have a C. hystrix, which does well but has never
flowered (grown from a fruit and used for cooking!) and an orange that
I was given. It is happy but not exciting. A lime would be a lot more
interesting, and that one sounds plausbile.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Dave Poole" wrote ...

Their 'seedless' qualities are either due to them being entirely
sterile or self-sterile. Since the only way to get the same fruit
consistently is to propagate vegetatively using grafting or cuttings.
All trees in a plantation would be clones and being closely
related.they'd be self-incompatible resulting in seedless or near
seedless fruits.

Our Tahiti Lime is grown with 2 Lemon trees, an Orange tree, and Padua Lime
(fun plant) close by but not one of the 28 fruit we have harvested over the
last couple of months had a seed and I can't remember one ever having seed.
Would lend one to believe the clone/variety/hybrid is sterile.
BTW the fruit turn yellow when ripe when they also get sweeter or loose some
astringency, so you can pick to suit your requirements/taste. All the limes
in Sainsbury's ATM are Tahiti Limes (I read the label) which look exactly
like ours, like a smaller perfectly round green lemon.
Regarding warmth, oar's is outside now and will stay there unless we get a
bad cold snap, it gets treated just like all our other citrus except I put
it in the heated greenhouse in winter, min 50°F.
Together with the Lemon the Tahiti Lime is certainly worth growing.
--
Regards
Bob H
17mls W. of London.UK

Coming in very late, I agree UK supermarket limes don't have seeds.
I have fond memories of buying Key Limes in the Keys years ago (I'm a
native Floridian).
Just ordering a 'Tuscan lime' tree from Crocus for our house in
Derbyshire's conservatory. Hope to get some limes next year!
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
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