Interesting article in our newspaper this morning about air miles and
environmental impact. I can see both sides of the argument however it does
show hom simplistic simply gauging things by food miles is. A far better
determinant is total energy consumption or environmental footprint from
ground to market. That provides an overall assessment. Will be difficult to
develop a comprehensive calculation I reckon. This is not to say that
efforts should not be made in calculating the environmental impact of food,
more that a robust system needs to be developed before dignificant actions
be taken.
rob

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/s...451695&ref=rss

In floppy hats and gumboots, Kenya's Kikuyu farmers are preparing for war
with Britain. There isn't an AK-47 in sight, though there are plenty of
organic cucumbers, carrots, french beans and cauliflowers.

It's a battle over who is to blame for climate change - poor African farmers
who export their produce by air, or Western consumers who care about the
environmental impact of "food miles".

"Who emits more greenhouse gases?" asks Charles Kimani among his avocado
trees. "A Kenyan or a Briton?" The average Briton emits 30 times more carbon
than a Kenyan, according to World Bank figures - or 9.4 tonnes of CO2
compared with 0.3 tonnes.

Behind the furore is the proposal by the UK's Soil Association, which
campaigns for organic food, organic farming and sustainable forestry to ban
imports of organic produce from poor countries such as Kenya because of
their food miles - the carbon emitted by air transport.

Starting with a debate in London tomorrow, the SA will hear views on the
issue until September, when it may decide to introduce a limited or total
ban. A ban would mean labelling air-freighted products so that they
effectively lost their organic status due to their food miles. Such a move
would destroy the livelihoods of tens of thousands of smallholders across
Africa in one of the continent's most enterprising export industries,
forcing them back into poverty and subsistence farming.


Advertisement

Advertisement"A ban on our export market will be death for us," says Mr
Kimani, who has put his children through school and college from the profits
made from fruit and vegetables on just three hectares of land.

Organic produce is the fastest-growth area of Africa's horticultural
industry, with cut flowers and other high-value products like dried herbs
and essential oils. In Kenya, where two-thirds of people live on less than
$1 a day, horticulture is the largest export earner after tourism.

The story is much the same in Ethiopia, Uganda and Tanzania.

A chain of other industries from packaging to transport firms also rely on
horticulture, so the knock-on effect would hurt millions of jobs across the
region.

The food miles debate deepens the scepticism that many Africans already have
towards Western rhetoric about ending poverty in the continent. Most farmers
in upcountry Kenyan areas such as Kiambu do not look to increased aid as the
way out of poverty. Devout Christians with a tradition of hard work and
self-help, Kikuyu farmers see wealth coming from access to lucrative Western
markets.


"The SA proposal is just another non-tariff barrier to trade among the many
that already exist," says Eustace Kiarii, chief of an organisation
representing Kenyan organic farmers. Farmers from Kenya and developing
countries are not asking for special trade access, but to be allowed to
trade competitively."

At risk of starting a vitriolic debate on this hugely fashionable and "in"
subject - I personally have just a tiny little, teen weeny, very small,
back-of-the-mind suspicion that part of the Global Warming thing is to
maintain the status quo and the economic/agricultural power of the existing
major world economies ....do "we" (in the "West") really want Kenyan farmers
climbing out of poverty and potentially turning their economy around?

We're short of resources, and we want to keep things as they are - think
about it .....Global Warming is happening anyway - whether it's us or
cattle-f*rting - why not use it?

Barb
(an old cynic - definition: "one who believes that human conduct is
motivated wholly by self-interest ")



"George.com" wrote in message
...
Interesting article in our newspaper this morning about air miles and
environmental impact. I can see both sides of the argument however it does
show hom simplistic simply gauging things by food miles is. A far better
determinant is total energy consumption or environmental footprint from
ground to market. That provides an overall assessment. Will be difficult
to
develop a comprehensive calculation I reckon. This is not to say that
efforts should not be made in calculating the environmental impact of
food,
more that a robust system needs to be developed before dignificant actions
be taken.
rob

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/s...451695&ref=rss

In floppy hats and gumboots, Kenya's Kikuyu farmers are preparing for war
with Britain. There isn't an AK-47 in sight, though there are plenty of
organic cucumbers, carrots, french beans and cauliflowers.

It's a battle over who is to blame for climate change - poor African
farmers
who export their produce by air, or Western consumers who care about the
environmental impact of "food miles".

"Who emits more greenhouse gases?" asks Charles Kimani among his avocado
trees. "A Kenyan or a Briton?" The average Briton emits 30 times more
carbon
than a Kenyan, according to World Bank figures - or 9.4 tonnes of CO2
compared with 0.3 tonnes.

Behind the furore is the proposal by the UK's Soil Association, which
campaigns for organic food, organic farming and sustainable forestry to
ban
imports of organic produce from poor countries such as Kenya because of
their food miles - the carbon emitted by air transport.

Starting with a debate in London tomorrow, the SA will hear views on the
issue until September, when it may decide to introduce a limited or total
ban. A ban would mean labelling air-freighted products so that they
effectively lost their organic status due to their food miles. Such a move
would destroy the livelihoods of tens of thousands of smallholders across
Africa in one of the continent's most enterprising export industries,
forcing them back into poverty and subsistence farming.


Advertisement

Advertisement"A ban on our export market will be death for us," says Mr
Kimani, who has put his children through school and college from the
profits
made from fruit and vegetables on just three hectares of land.

Organic produce is the fastest-growth area of Africa's horticultural
industry, with cut flowers and other high-value products like dried herbs
and essential oils. In Kenya, where two-thirds of people live on less than
$1 a day, horticulture is the largest export earner after tourism.

The story is much the same in Ethiopia, Uganda and Tanzania.

A chain of other industries from packaging to transport firms also rely on
horticulture, so the knock-on effect would hurt millions of jobs across
the
region.

The food miles debate deepens the scepticism that many Africans already
have
towards Western rhetoric about ending poverty in the continent. Most
farmers
in upcountry Kenyan areas such as Kiambu do not look to increased aid as
the
way out of poverty. Devout Christians with a tradition of hard work and
self-help, Kikuyu farmers see wealth coming from access to lucrative
Western
markets.


"The SA proposal is just another non-tariff barrier to trade among the
many
that already exist," says Eustace Kiarii, chief of an organisation
representing Kenyan organic farmers. Farmers from Kenya and developing
countries are not asking for special trade access, but to be allowed to
trade competitively."

"Barb" wrote in message
...
At risk of starting a vitriolic debate on this hugely fashionable and "in"
subject - I personally have just a tiny little, teen weeny, very small,
back-of-the-mind suspicion that part of the Global Warming thing is to
maintain the status quo and the economic/agricultural power of the
existing major world economies ....do "we" (in the "West") really want
Kenyan farmers climbing out of poverty and potentially turning their
economy around?

I wonder why Kenyans can't grow food for their own use.

Perhaps I'm naive ...

Mary

The message
from Martin contains these words:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:16:12 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Barb" wrote in message
.. .
At risk of starting a vitriolic debate on this hugely fashionable
and "in"
subject - I personally have just a tiny little, teen weeny, very small,
back-of-the-mind suspicion that part of the Global Warming thing is to
maintain the status quo and the economic/agricultural power of the
existing major world economies ....do "we" (in the "West") really want
Kenyan farmers climbing out of poverty and potentially turning their
economy around?

I wonder why Kenyans can't grow food for their own use.

Perhaps I'm naive ...

.... you are.

Why not wonder why UK has to import cucumbers and lettuce etc. from
Holland &
Spain.
--

Exactly - why? Because we want to have them all year round instead of
eating the vegies in season like our parents did?

Better still - grow our own [not that I do with my tiny courtyard I have
to admit ] they certainly taste better.
Beryl

On 16/7/07 22:13, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:16:12 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Barb" wrote in message
...
At risk of starting a vitriolic debate on this hugely fashionable and "in"
subject - I personally have just a tiny little, teen weeny, very small,
back-of-the-mind suspicion that part of the Global Warming thing is to
maintain the status quo and the economic/agricultural power of the
existing major world economies ....do "we" (in the "West") really want
Kenyan farmers climbing out of poverty and potentially turning their
economy around?

I wonder why Kenyans can't grow food for their own use.

Perhaps I'm naive ...

... you are.

Why not wonder why UK has to import cucumbers and lettuce etc. from Holland &
Spain.

We don't have to do so. We choose to do so.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 17/7/07 09:31, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:54:11 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

On 16/7/07 22:13, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:16:12 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Barb" wrote in message
...
At risk of starting a vitriolic debate on this hugely fashionable and "in"
subject - I personally have just a tiny little, teen weeny, very small,
back-of-the-mind suspicion that part of the Global Warming thing is to
maintain the status quo and the economic/agricultural power of the
existing major world economies ....do "we" (in the "West") really want
Kenyan farmers climbing out of poverty and potentially turning their
economy around?

I wonder why Kenyans can't grow food for their own use.

Perhaps I'm naive ...

... you are.

Why not wonder why UK has to import cucumbers and lettuce etc. from Holland
&
Spain.

We don't have to do so. We choose to do so.

You choose to buy Dutch cucumbers? Normally it is because there is no other
option.

That's the point. You don't *have* to have cucumbers, you *choose* to have
cucumbers.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 17/7/07 10:08, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:42:41 +0100, Sacha
wrote:
snip
That's the point. You don't *have* to have cucumbers, you *choose* to have
cucumbers.

I choose not to have Dutch cucumbers.

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK could
have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK supermarkets
horticultural needs.

I don't think anyone other than a government that couldn't find the
countryside with a GPS, 6 helicopters and ESP, is going to argue with that.
We might not manage everything and we won't have avocados in January but we
could probably grow most of what we *need*, as opposed to *want*.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"Beryl Harwood" wrote in message
...

Why not wonder why UK has to import cucumbers and lettuce etc. from
Holland &
Spain.
--

Exactly - why?

We don't HAVE to, the pseudomarkets want to 'give customers choice'. In
other words they want to sell more. We can resist :-)

Because we want to have them all year round instead of
eating the vegies in season like our parents did?

And some of us still do. I won't buy anything from abroad which can be grown
in this country, if that means that I don't have strawberries at Christmas
so be it. I do buy exotics which can't be grown here.

Better still - grow our own [not that I do with my tiny courtyard I have
to admit ] they certainly taste better.

They do, even cucumbers which I never thought had much flavour. Once I had
grown my own there was no lookiing back. We gorge on things in their season
and look forward to them the rest of the year. At the moment it's
raspberries, too many for us to eat although we do, every day, so the rest
are going in the freezer ready for jamming. We've had three meals of runner
beans and there will be lots more to come. I think we had the last of the
cabbage last night. This morning I was in the greenhouse tending the
tomatoes, they're still green but I can wait :-)

I just wish I had a bigger garden to grown more.

Mary

Following up to Sacha wrote:

I don't think anyone other than a government that couldn't find the
countryside with a GPS, 6 helicopters and ESP, is going to argue with that.
We might not manage everything and we won't have avocados in January but we
could probably grow most of what we *need*, as opposed to *want*.

trouble is the whole globalised world economy is based on the opposite
idea, that things are produced where costs are lowest and that
production is controled by demand, not by government dictat.
--
Mike Reid
Cutty Sark appeal"http://www.cuttysark.org.uk"
City of Adelaide petition
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cuttysarksister/
to email remove clothing.

"Martin" wrote

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK could
have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK
supermarkets
horticultural needs.
Martin

You don't see it as a sort of third world help, buying stuff from Africa
etc?
It might be better to grow stuff where the sun shines instead of in
greenhouses in northern Europe?
Jenny

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Martin" wrote

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK
could have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK
supermarkets
horticultural needs.
Martin

You don't see it as a sort of third world help, buying stuff from Africa
etc?
It might be better to grow stuff where the sun shines instead of in
greenhouses in northern Europe?
Jenny

It would be even better for Africans etc. to grow food for themselves rather
than be paid for growing food for us and having to buy what's dumped on
them.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Martin" wrote

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK
could have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK
supermarkets
horticultural needs.
Martin

You don't see it as a sort of third world help, buying stuff from Africa
etc?
It might be better to grow stuff where the sun shines instead of in
greenhouses in northern Europe?
Jenny

It would be even better for Africans etc. to grow food for themselves
rather than be paid for growing food for us and having to buy what's
dumped on them.

Mary

Good point Mary!
Jenny

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Martin" wrote

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK
could have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK
supermarkets
horticultural needs.
Martin

You don't see it as a sort of third world help, buying stuff from Africa
etc?

Wouldn't it be better for them to eat it themselves, after all, they are
supposed to be starving!

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:


"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Martin" wrote

The point is that it is stupid to criticise other countries, when UK
could have
a perfectly viable horticulture industry supplying most of the UK
supermarkets
horticultural needs.
Martin

You don't see it as a sort of third world help, buying stuff from Africa
etc?

Wouldn't it be better for them to eat it themselves, after all, they are
supposed to be starving!

Which was Mary's point. I guess that they don't have the money to buy
it themselves and their gov'mnt won't pay them to feed themselves so
they need out money to buy the inferior products we choose to pass back
to them. Not good imo.

Beryl

On 17 Jul, 13:32, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

It would be even better for Africans etc. to grow food for themselves rather
than be paid for growing food for us and having to buy what's dumped on
them.

Mary

The kind of trade you describe would be stupid and wasteful. Africa
does already grow most of its own food; but free trade would help.
However, because developed countries force prices down (through
tariffs and subsidies &c) there are three problems:

1. Africa earns much less money from exporting to rich countries like
the UK;
2. Inefficient agricultural industries in rich countries (like the UK)
are propped up at the taxpayer's expense;
3. Third parties are more likely to buy food from the most-subsidised
producer (places like the UK) rather from the cheapest producer
(places like Africa).

In other words, Britons have to pay billions of pounds to move
production from poor African farmers (who need the work most) to
richer British farmers.