Just found this:
"Horse or Mares Tail
Horse or Mares Tail, Equisetum Arvense is, in my opinion, public enemy
number one. It looks like it belongs in Jurassic Park and, unchecked,
spreads like wildfire.
In spring, brown green shoots appear with small cones at the tips that
produce spores. (Arghh * millions of Œem) and it grows away from creeping
thin brown roots that you can hardly see as they are soil coloured. Digging
out these roots is not feasible * they go down into the soil for up to 1.5
metres * yes, 5 feet.
Later the Œleaves¹ or tails appear. These will die off as autumn turns to
winter and the roots sit there waiting for spring. The leaves have a waxy
coat, which makes the plant highly resistant to weedkillers.
Crushing the leaves to break up the coating helps weedkiller to penetrate
and become absorbed but in large areas it is not so easy to crush all the
leaves . However, glyphosate weed killer will have an effect and eventually
kill the plant. You will probably need 5 or more applications. Knock it
back, it re-grows and you repeat.
I don¹t think you can clear this in less than one season.
Amicide seems to be a far more effective weed killer. It can kill it in one
application but may well need two.
I¹d recommend NOT digging where there is horsetail until it is dead for
sure. Otherwise it just starts springing up from the root cuttings. Drying
or drowning the roots prior to composting is a must.
I've been contacted by Mr Charles Bailey who points out that Horestail is
correctly applied to the weed growing on land whereas Marestail is correctly
applied to the weed growing in water.
He also puts forth an organic control method, which he says is effective.
Without resorting to chemicals you can control/irradicate horse tail by
digging/forking through the soil when it is in the right condition: ie not
too wet and sticky!
Once you have removed as much as possible, any that shoots is easily dealt
with. Before it reaches 3 ins/7cm high, hoe off an inch below the surface.
Eventually the food supply in the root is exhausted. Let it get bigger than
stated and food begins to be stored in the roots again, and round and round
you go ad infinitum.
Never touch Horsetail with a mechanical cultivator. If you do you will
understand why it has been around for 60 million years
Glyphosate
This herbicide seems fairly safe. It is systemic, being taken down to the
roots and I understand it is deactivated by contact with the soil. It is not
approved by UK organic standards but I heard some European countries allow
it in organic standards. It is the main constituent in Round Up and
Tumbleweed ready mixed.
Fairly cheap but don¹t use that as an excuse to over use it. The dead weeds
can be composted without the compost becoming toxic. Weed killers should
always be treated with caution"
http://www.allotment.org.uk/articles...What_to_do.php

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 19 Aug, 10:56, Sacha wrote:
Just found this:
"Horse or Mares Tail

And Jenny had found this from Graham Paul a chemical specialist :

I have very mixed feelings towards the Horsetails. On the one hand
they are a fascinating, unusual, medicinally useful and most
successful group of plants that have been around for some 30 million
years. The Horsetails are descendants of a group of ancient tree-like
plants that thrived 300 million years ago during the Carboniferous
period of pre-history. We know from fossil evidence that some of
these ancestors reached over thirty metres in height. But on the
other hand I have Field Horsetail in my garden and it comes up every
year. The evil black creeping rhizomes penetrate deep into my clay
soil and where they surface they give rise to green 'bottlebrush'
stems in the late spring and summer. I have tried and failed to
eradicate it by cultural means; when you pull up one of these stems
you are rewarded a few weeks later by two more where once there was
one! When you dig the ground where they lay, the black rhizomes break
up and this helps to propagate more stems. A three centimetre length
of rhizome has been shown to give rise to a whole new plant.

Horsetail rhizomes have been found several metres below the soil
surface. They thrive in poor soils but have no great preference for
soil type. The Horsetail family produce two types of stem; the first
is a short (20 to 50cm), usually brown coloured 'Asparagus-like' stem
that emerges early in the year and bears a cone structure at the tip
containing large numbers of spores. These spores function very
effectively to spread the weed to any remaining parts of your property
that weren't previously blessed with it. The second type of stem is
taller (up to 60cm with Field Horsetail), dark green in colour,
sterile and emerges when the first have died back. It is little
wonder that this plant has survived for so long.

Over the years I have tried many chemical treatments to control my
Horsetail problem. The best of which was a product sold by May &
Baker to professional Groundsmen under the name of 'Bushwacker'. The
active ingredient tebuthiuron was a very long persisting residual
herbicide that slowly moved down the soil profile eradicating all
vegetation; grasses, annuals, perennials, scrub, brush and even mature
trees. It was withdrawn after a short period on the market because
people were reluctant to use it for fear of killing nearby trees.

Short term control is seen where dichlobenil has been used (e.g.
'Osorno') - this herbicide lays down a chemical barrier to germinating
weeds and emerging shoots. Care needs to be taken when using
dichlobenil near herbaceous plants and shallow rooted shrubs (the
latter are listed on the product label). Some success has also been
reported with Glyphosate ('Round-up') but the problem with using any
herbicide spray against Horsetail is that the 'Bottlebrush' stems are
practically impervious to chemical uptake by virtue of the waxy nature
and small 'leaf' area. I have read that desperate gardeners have
tried crushing the stems before spraying or using gels, stickers and
pastes to keep the chemical in place long enough to get a result. The
sad realisation is that when a rhizome can penetrate up to 8 feet
below the surface - you are going to need some form of miracle to get
enough chemical uptake for a sound kill! My own attempts to eradicate
Horsetail from my garden have only achieved short-term success. I now
take the philosophical view that if evolution can't change the
Horsetail in 30 million years, I must learn to live with it.

Apparently some types of horsetail are eaten in Japan. Perhaps we
should actively try to grow it to add to our vegetables.

In my case that is almost guaranteed to get rid of it for good!

Steve

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software Ltd

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.

http://www.easynn.com

"La Puce" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 19 Aug, 10:56, Sacha wrote:
Just found this:
"Horse or Mares Tail

And Jenny had found this from Graham Paul a chemical specialist :
I have very mixed feelings towards the Horsetails...........
snipped

I like them myself - in small quantities !!
I used to have a patch in my old garden
They are wonderful in flower arrangements :~)))
Jenny

"Steve Wolstenholme" wrote in message
news
Apparently some types of horsetail are eaten in Japan. Perhaps we
should actively try to grow it to add to our vegetables.

In my case that is almost guaranteed to get rid of it for good!

Steve
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software Ltd
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

recipe for 'frizzled horsetail' :~))))
http://club.pep.ne.jp/%7Eshigmats.1/...n/tsukushi.htm
Jenny

On 19 Aug, 13:38, "JennyC" wrote:
"Steve Wolstenholme" wrote in message
Apparently some types of horsetail are eaten in Japan. Perhaps we
should actively try to grow it to add to our vegetables.
In my case that is almost guaranteed to get rid of it for good!

LOL! You see, yet another 'old' vegetable we had forgotten. I say,
lets start a trend

off to write to Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall

recipe for 'frizzled horsetail' :~))))http://club.pep.ne.jp/%7Eshigmats.1/...n/tsukushi.htm

Not entirely connected but last week I found a cepe growing inside the
coiled up hosepipe. Of all place! The hosepipe is under an oak tree,
but still, it went on the plancha yum yum ;o)

In message , Sacha
quotes
I've been contacted by Mr Charles Bailey who points out that Horestail
is correctly applied to the weed growing on land whereas Marestail is
correctly applied to the weed growing in water.

Mare's tail, Hippuris vulgaris, is an aquatic flowering plant, with
reduced flowers (perhaps water-pollinated) belonging to family
Haloragaceae. Apart from the water-milfoils, which belong to the same
family, current opinion is that its nearest relatives in the British
Flora are the stonecrops (Sedum), pigmyweeds (Crassula) and navelwort
(Umbilicus).

Horsetail, sometimes called Mare's tail, Equisetum sp, are non-flowering
plants, and are probably modified ferns.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
| In message , Sacha
| quotes
| I've been contacted by Mr Charles Bailey who points out that Horestail
| is correctly applied to the weed growing on land whereas Marestail is
| correctly applied to the weed growing in water.
|
| Mare's tail, Hippuris vulgaris, is an aquatic flowering plant, with
| reduced flowers (perhaps water-pollinated) belonging to family
| Haloragaceae. Apart from the water-milfoils, which belong to the same
| family, current opinion is that its nearest relatives in the British
| Flora are the stonecrops (Sedum), pigmyweeds (Crassula) and navelwort
| (Umbilicus).
|
| Horsetail, sometimes called Mare's tail, Equisetum sp, are non-flowering
| plants, and are probably modified ferns.

It appears that the reason that mare's tail is called that is that it
was once felt to be the female form of horsetail by botanists, as they
never found flowers or seeds on the latter. But that was a quite a
long time ago ....

Anyway, Equisetum species have been called horsetails or marestails
according to the whim of the speaker for centuries. Mr Charles Bailey
is wrong.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| Anyway, Equisetum species have been called horsetails or marestails
| according to the whim of the speaker for centuries. Mr Charles Bailey
| is wrong.
|
| No, he's not wrong, he is just expressing an opinion which is quite
| widely shared, including by me, even though it may not be by you.

It is also not shared by the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary,
which is more to the point. You may well claim that they are wrong,
but they have provided evidence, and I assert that they know rather
more about the English language than you do.

To imply (let alone state) that applying the term marestail to
Equisetum is wrong is just plain wrong. YOU may prefer not to do it,
but it is perfectly correct English usage, including in a scientific
context where the vernacular names are acceptable (see the OED).

Just as claiming that bluebell means the bulbous plant, and that alone,
is just plain wrong.

| It would, actually, be quite helpful to firmly pin just one vernacular
| name to each plant in order to remove all doubt in discussions such as
| this. ...

Now, THAT is just expressing an opinion, which is not as widely
shared as you seem to think that it is.

As I said, if you want to be botanically precise, then use correct
botanic terminology, which is to use Equisetum or Hippurus. What's
the problem with that?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| My 1997 copy of the SOED states:
|
| ...
|
| Perhaps you are using a different edition (later or earlier).

Yes. And I am referring to the OED, not any of its abbreviated
versions.

mare's tail, n.

.... Also: any of several horsetails (genus Equisetum), which Hippuris
vulgaris superficially resembles.

"1868 SIR J. HOOKER Addr. in Rep. Brit. Assoc. Advancem. Sci. p. lxv,
The existing family of Equisetaceæ..contained previously but one genus,
that of the common mare's tails of our river-banks and woods."

You may have heard of the author in a botanic context.

| I'm not sure how many gardeners use the OED as a reference book. As a
| botanist (and also a gardener), I use Stace's New Flora of the British
| Isles as my reference book. This is what he has to say in his
| introduction to "Equisetaceae - Horsetail family":
|
| "The common name Mare's-tail is often used, but is a misapplication;
| true Mare's-tail is Hippurus...."
|
| I suggest that what he is doing with that statement is much the same as
| me - trying to persuade people to use one vernacular name for each plant

Indeed. Again, from the OED:

propaganda, n.

3. The systematic dissemination of information, esp. in a biased or
misleading way, in order to promote a political cause or point of view.

And his statement is FALSE. If he is unaware of it, he is pontificating
from a position of ignorance; if he is aware of it, that is a low form
of propaganda.

| None at all. But if you want a botanically precise person to know what
| you are talking about, why not use Horsetail and Mare's-tail to indicate
| two completely different plants?

Because, if they are even half-competent, they will perfectly happy
using Equisetum and Hippurus for referring to the genera as such.
Note that Hooker used the words competently, giving the Latin generic
name to specify precisely what he was referring to and the vernacular
when precision was not required.

Why are you so keen on telling users of standard English that they are
wrong and they must change their ways? I don't give a damn if you
want to communicate with Stace and others in Basic English, Sheddi
or Klingon. Why do you object to the use of standard English?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

None at all. But if you want a botanically precise person to know what
you are talking about, why not use Horsetail and Mare's-tail to indicate
two completely different plants?

OK. here's the year 2000 revision of the OED entry for Marestail

================================================== =============

Â*Â*1. a. The aquatic flowering plant Hippuris vulgaris (family
Hippuridaceae), having an erect stem with leaves in whorls and small
greenish axillary flowers; formerly also called female horsetail. Also:
any of several horsetails (genus Equisetum), which Hippuris vulgaris
superficially resembles. Cf. HORSETAIL n. 2.
?a1425 MS Hunterian 95 f. 194v, Cauda equina: Maire tayle or schaue
gresse. 1526 Grete Herball ccxx. sig. Niii/2, Iperium is an herbe that
is called mares tayle. 1762 W. HUDSON Flora Anglica 2 Hippuris..Anglis
Mare's-tail. 1785 T. MARTYN tr. J. J. Rousseau Lett. Elements Bot. xi.
122 (note) In the books it [sc. Hippuris] is called Female Horse-tail or
Mare's-tail. 1864 TENNYSON Aylmer's Field 92 The petty marestail forest,
fairy pines. 1868 SIR J. HOOKER Addr. in Rep. Brit. Assoc. Advancem.
Sci. p. lxv, The existing family of Equisetaceæ..contained previously
but one genus, that of the common mare's tails of our river-banks and
woods. 1879 R. JEFFERIES Wild Life 374 On the shore, where it is marshy,
the mares-tail flourishes. 1919 W. GRAVESON Brit. Wild Flowers (ed. 2)
xxiii. 217 Some of the old writers regarded the plant [sc. Hippuris] as
the female of one of the equisetums, and hence the transition of name
from Female Horse-tail to Mares-tail. 1960 S. ARY & M. GREGORY Oxf. Bk.
Wild Flowers 52/2 Mare's-tail is a widespread but only locally common
plant of lakes, streams, and ditches. 1990 Gardening from ‘Which’? Aug.
272/3 Casoron G4 can be used to kill mare's tails. 1991 C. STACE New
Flora Brit. Isles 11 The common name Mare's-tail is often used [of the
genus Equisetum] but is a misapplication; true Mare's-tail is Hippuris.
Â*Â*Â*Â*b. U.S. regional. Horseweed (Canadian fleabane), Conyza canadensis.
1900 A. B. LYONS Plant Names 221 L[eptilon] Canadense... Mare's-tail.
1935 W. C. MUENSCHER Weeds 483 Mares-tail... Common throughout North
America. 1993 T. COFFEY Hist. & Folklore N. Amer. Wildflowers 255/1
Horseweed. Conyza canadensis... Bittersweet,..Canada
Fleabane,..Mare's-Tail, [etc.].
Â*Â*Â*
Â*2. A long straight streak of cirrus cloud, often believed to herald
stormy weather. Usu. in pl. exc. in attrib. use, as mare's tail cirrus,
cloud.

Â*Â*Â*Â*3. Anat. = cauda equina s.v. CAUDA n. Obs. rare0.
1890 Cent. Dict., Mare's-tail,..in anat., the cauda equina.


===========================================

From which I conclude that when the word "marestail' is used to
refer to a plant, it is either hippuris vulgaris, any of several
horsetails (genus Equisetum) or conyza canadensis or it is a usage
as yet unrecorded by the OED.
I would expect any botanically precise person, who wished the reader
to understand what was being referring to, to use the specific
latin name. In looser circumstances, context is used to
decide. Marestail + obnoxious weed + allotment + UK = equisetum sp.

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| I congratulate the editors of the OED for relying on a citation no less
| than 139 years old! Perhaps they haven't found anything more up to
| date.....:-)

Perhaps you should have read John McMillan's response before posting
such arrant nonsense.

| I note that Hooker did this some 139 years ago. The current thread was,
| unsurprisingly, about the current usage and whether or not it could be
| improved. As with other words, if usage does change, the editors of the
| OED do eventually catch up :-)

No, it was NOT, as you damn well know. It was about whether the use of
of marestail to mean Equisetum is correct or incorrect, and whether
Stace's remarks about that use were right or wrong. Such use is correct,
and people who claim that it isn't are themselves wrong.

If you are trying to make a change to the English language, then bully
for you. You probably won't succeed, but that's your problem. But,
as often as you use propaganda and post falsehoods to attempt it, I
will continue to point it out. People may like to look at a thread
from 4 years back, where I pointed out your nonsense; there are
others :-(

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.re...thread/thread/
f4e07c9f668296aa/ed49ee1963af097e?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#ed49ee1963 af097e

I won't say that you are pretending ignorance, because you may be
suffering from memory loss due to your advancing years, but you have
been told about this matter several times before and you continually
repeat your falsehoods.

Enough is enough. I doubt that I shall respond further.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 20 Aug, 12:13, John McMillan
wrote:
Marestail + obnoxious weed + allotment + UK = equisetum sp.

Now I'll never forget it, thank you )

In message .com
La Puce wrote:

On 20 Aug, 12:13, John McMillan
wrote:
Marestail + obnoxious weed + allotment + UK = equisetum sp.

Now I'll never forget it, thank you )

Setting aside the botanical niceties, it is WEED where I live in
Forest Hall, Newcastle. Actually a neighbour of mine has let it grow
and completely take over a bed, and in a slightly kinky way it looks
rather nice, like a green animal fur. Then guilt sets and he
weed-kills it, leaving a brown mess. And the same the next year! I
wish he could make up his mind.

But I see it as a weed. I have been in this house 20 months. Last year
I sprayed it with Roundup wherever it came up it and broadly, it
succeeded. Within a week or so it turns brown, and very few new shoots
came up, I squirted them and this year I hardly have any in the beds.
But I hadn't noticed how much horsetail (quiet there, you
taxonomists!) was in the lawn. In any case, last winter I completely
dug up the lawn and also dug in some earth displaced from a building
activity - anyway it was too low in relation to the garden path - and
I reseeded it. This year I saw that a lot of horsetail was coming up
through the new lawn. I tried to be selective in squirting the
horsetail rather than the grass, but there was a lot of overspray and
killed many patches of grass. But I will reseed those patches in the
next few weeks, and I will have a horsetail free lawn next year.

So, I say to you:-

Weedkiller does work!

Persistence pays!

Michael Bell





--