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Damons? Plums?
We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for
Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | On 14/8/08 16:14, in article , | "Martin" wrote: | | Blame the Romans? | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damson | | I always thought they were just wild plums. | | Thanks, Martin. Have printed that off for them outdoors! But warn them it's got it hopelessly wrong! Here is the situation. Prunus domestica originated in the Near East in prehistoric times (or possibly JUST into historic ones), and spread west with the Neolithic farmers. Insanely, it is classified by the botanical taxonomists as introduced, to distinguish it from beech (which is classified as native), despite them having almost identical pollen records. But either could have been carried across the channel by a bird. Bluntly, nobody knows, and the classifications are nonsense. They don't even know if it is a natural hexaploid or was bred; anyway, it is a cross between P. spinosa and P. cerasifera, the sloe and myrobalan. The wild ones are normally called bullaces in the UK, but there is essentially no difference between a damson and a bullace, and some people reserve the name bullace for small, yellow plums. The first paragraph of the following abstract explains all :-) http://www.actahort.org/books/283/283_2.htm If you tell the French people that a damson bears the same relationship to a Victoria plum as a peche de vigne does to a supermarket peach, they may understand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
Oops. Sorry. I forgot to mention that the Romans DID introduce their variety of 'plums of Damascus', and that bit is right. But the plant was already established over much of the UK, under another name. That was controversial for years, but pollen records have clarified the situation. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 14/8/08 16:52, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: Oops. Sorry. I forgot to mention that the Romans DID introduce their variety of 'plums of Damascus', and that bit is right. But the plant was already established over much of the UK, under another name. That was controversial for years, but pollen records have clarified the situation. Regards, Nick Maclaren. English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a thing?! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In message , Martin
writes On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:08:32 +0100, Sacha wrote: We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) Blame the Romans? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damson I always thought they were just wild plums. There is a smallish tree in the park just beyond my garden fence which bears a damson-like fruit some years. It's a darn nuisance because it drops them on my garden, and because small boys climb the tree and throw them at my house if they spot them I did try eating one, but it didn't taste like a plum, and the windfalls were all bruised. -- Gordon H |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that | info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just | how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half | their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly | happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a | thing?! Dunno. But some genera have been very successful - especially if they are somewhat promiscuous in their mating, as Prunus is. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
Sacha writes
English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a thing?! The taxonomic system is an attempt to reflect the 'family tree' of the plants involved. Therefore the assumption is that the various species of Prunus are closely enough related to justify them all being in the same genus (or, conversely, that they are not sufficiently different to justify a split). Or it could be that Prunus taxonmists tend to be 'lumpers' rather than 'splitters' ;-) How many species does Prunus have? Thymus apparently has around 350 -- Kay |
Damons? Plums?
In article , K writes: | | The taxonomic system is an attempt to reflect the 'family tree' of the | plants involved. Therefore the assumption is that the various species of | Prunus are closely enough related to justify them all being in the same | genus (or, conversely, that they are not sufficiently different to | justify a split). | | Or it could be that Prunus taxonmists tend to be 'lumpers' rather than | 'splitters' ;-) | | How many species does Prunus have? Thymus apparently has around 350 Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just the plums. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Gordon H writes: | | There is a smallish tree in the park just beyond my garden fence which | bears a damson-like fruit some years. It's a darn nuisance because | it drops them on my garden, and because small boys climb the tree and | throw them at my house if they spot them | | I did try eating one, but it didn't taste like a plum, and the windfalls | were all bruised. What did they taste like? And what is the stone like? Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
In message , K
writes Sacha writes English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a thing?! The taxonomic system is an attempt to reflect the 'family tree' of the plants involved. Therefore the assumption is that the various species of Prunus are closely enough related to justify them all being in the same genus (or, conversely, that they are not sufficiently different to justify a split). Or it could be that Prunus taxonmists tend to be 'lumpers' rather than 'splitters' ;-) How many species does Prunus have? Thymus apparently has around 350 Fide Wikipedia Prunus has 430 species. (I would have guessed 100-200.) Hibiscus has about 300 (there's a proposal which would take it up to 700). Veronica 500. Euphorbia over 2000. Acacia over 1000 (but that might be before it was broken, but the rump Acacia is much the biggest of the new genera). Senecio 1500 (but that's likely to be broken up). Vernonia of the order of 1000. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Damons? Plums?
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , K writes: | | The taxonomic system is an attempt to reflect the 'family tree' of the | plants involved. Therefore the assumption is that the various species of | Prunus are closely enough related to justify them all being in the same | genus (or, conversely, that they are not sufficiently different to | justify a split). | | Or it could be that Prunus taxonmists tend to be 'lumpers' rather than | 'splitters' ;-) | | How many species does Prunus have? Thymus apparently has around 350 Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just the plums. Prunus - plums Amygdalus - almond Armeniaca - apricot Persica - peach Cerasus - cherries Padus - more cherries Laurocerasus - cherry laurels (per Komarov, 1971, fide Lee & Wen 2001) But a single genus has been the most common position for a long time (e.g. Bentham & Hooker, 1865). Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word on the topic see http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be | half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether | that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just | the plums. | | Prunus - plums | Amygdalus - almond | Armeniaca - apricot | Persica - peach | Cerasus - cherries | Padus - more cherries | Laurocerasus - cherry laurels | | (per Komarov, 1971, fide Lee & Wen 2001) | | But a single genus has been the most common position for a long time | (e.g. Bentham & Hooker, 1865). | | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word | on the topic see | | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis, and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not! Especially for a genus like Prunus :-( Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
The message
from Sacha contains these words: English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a thing?! hyperbole="slight" Huh! If you want meddling boffins, look no further than mycology. Practically every mycologist of note and many of none, classify fungi in the genus of their own naming using different criteria. /hyperbole A mushroom can appear in one genus (say, Tricholoma) according to an 'authority', and in another (say, Lepista) according to another. Obviously closely-related species get bunged out of one genus where it had seemed well-established and dropped into another on (say) the colour of spores. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
Damons? Plums?
|
Damons? Plums?
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be | half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether | that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just | the plums. | | Prunus - plums | Amygdalus - almond | Armeniaca - apricot | Persica - peach | Cerasus - cherries | Padus - more cherries | Laurocerasus - cherry laurels | | (per Komarov, 1971, fide Lee & Wen 2001) | | But a single genus has been the most common position for a long time | (e.g. Bentham & Hooker, 1865). | | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word | on the topic see | | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis, and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not! I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.) Especially for a genus like Prunus :-( Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | | | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the | | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word | | on the topic see | | | | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf | | Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis, | and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not! | | I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of | order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen | elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.) Oh, it wasn't a criticism of you! And my point is statistical, not molecular - the chances of a single characteristic being misleading about the ancestry of an organism are very high indeed. It's not possible to give numbers without more data, but I could explain why fairly easily. Of course, uk.rec.gardening is not precisely the group for fairly advanced statistical concepts, but what the hell? :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 14/8/08 21:27, in article ,
"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote: The message from Sacha contains these words: English people living in bits of France, btw. ;-) But I will correct that info and pass it on to them outdoors. What rather surprised me was just how huge the Prunus grouping is. Given that taxonomists seem to spend half their time confusing the likes of me by changing the name of some perfectly happy and innocent plant, how is it that Prunus is such a big LUMP of a thing?! hyperbole="slight" Huh! If you want meddling boffins, look no further than mycology. Practically every mycologist of note and many of none, classify fungi in the genus of their own naming using different criteria. /hyperbole A mushroom can appear in one genus (say, Tricholoma) according to an 'authority', and in another (say, Lepista) according to another. Obviously closely-related species get bunged out of one genus where it had seemed well-established and dropped into another on (say) the colour of spores. Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be | doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the | length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to | one genus or another altogether! Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes things a lot easier. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Gordon H writes: | | There is a smallish tree in the park just beyond my garden fence which | bears a damson-like fruit some years. It's a darn nuisance because | it drops them on my garden, and because small boys climb the tree and | throw them at my house if they spot them | | I did try eating one, but it didn't taste like a plum, and the windfalls | were all bruised. What did they taste like? And what is the stone like? Regards, Nick Maclaren. It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this year, sorry. -- Gordon H |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 10:15, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Sacha writes: | | Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be | doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the | length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to | one genus or another altogether! Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes things a lot easier. AFAICS the salient differences are that damsons are smaller and more tart, which is why they're more often used in cooking. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: | http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm There are some. Also some damsons are yellow, and even green. There really is no hard and fast distinction between any of the categories of P. domestica. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
Sacha writes
I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether! I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the truth as is possible. -- Kay |
Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 15:29, in article , "K"
wrote: Sacha writes I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether! I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the truth as is possible. I'm very happy for others to do it and I do admire their persistence and understand the reasons behind it. It's just not for me! It's a bit like snowdrops, which I really do love - I simply cannot spend the winter on my knees arguing over which variety is which but galantophiles are in 7th heaven! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In message , Sacha
writes On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick Maclaren" wrote: In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off the tree? -- Gordon H |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Gordon H writes: | | I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: | http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm | | They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off | the tree? See if the leaves and growth look plum-like. I am still puzzled about what way it doesn't taste like a plum. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
"Sacha" wrote in message
We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all into the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning....... Anyhowever, I wandered off and got out my books on growing fruit in Oz and found the following info in the one I enjoy most so I offer it for what it's worth(tailoring it and cutting many pages to a few paras to try to fit the Continental flavour of your post) . The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'. P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace, the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. Mirabelles widely grown in France mainly for preserves and tarts, better cooked than fresh. St. Julians mainly used as rootstock, their plums much like damsons 'and the quetsche also known as the German prune, or Carlsbad plum, is another plum of the insitia tye, used widely as a culinary fruit.' There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent introductions to Europe' Interesting topic. |
Damons? Plums?
In article , "FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes: | | The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a | freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant | like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'. Yes. A chromosome doubled hybrid. Probably natural, but we don't know for certain - any more than for wheat. The abstract I referred to said that the sloe itself is a natural chromosome doubled hybrid between P. cerasifera and P. microcarpa. | P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace, | the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. ... Nowadays, all (?) authorities agree that P. institia is just a subspecies of P. domestica - if that. | There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum | stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes | of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum | from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent | introductions to Europe' In other words, the large-fruited hybrids are recent. Not all that surprising, really. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
The message
from "FarmI" ask@itshall be given contains these words: P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace, the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. Mirabelles widely grown in France mainly for preserves and tarts, better cooked than fresh. And make an excellent plum brandy... St. Julians mainly used as rootstock, their plums much like damsons 'and the quetsche also known as the German prune, or Carlsbad plum, is another plum of the insitia tye, used widely as a culinary fruit.' Which makes an even better plum brandy innit. There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent introductions to Europe' Interesting topic. Especially the distillate. -- Rusty Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk Separator in search of a sig |
Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 21:32, in article
, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "Sacha" wrote in message We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all into the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning....... snip There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent introductions to Europe' Interesting topic. Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank you so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info. I especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more interesting to me! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank you | so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info. I | especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at | Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more | interesting to me! What baffles me is why Prunus domestica wasn't more important in Neolithic times (at least not in the UK). The vast majority of the 'plum' stones found in Neolithic middens are sloes. One hypothesis is that they were not eaten, but used for dying clothes. On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily. I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has been done before, of course. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 16/8/08 15:07, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Sacha writes: | | Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank you | so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info. I | especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at | Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more | interesting to me! What baffles me is why Prunus domestica wasn't more important in Neolithic times (at least not in the UK). The vast majority of the 'plum' stones found in Neolithic middens are sloes. One hypothesis is that they were not eaten, but used for dying clothes. On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily. I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has been done before, of course. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily. | I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic | fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has | been done before, of course. | | Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to | Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but | kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces. OK. And probably the stones, for people to grow on :-) But I am not expecting it - currently, I have plenty of foliage but nothing more. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 16/8/08 15:56, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Sacha writes: | | On a not totally unrelated matter, my peche de vigne is growing happily. | I shall discover if it fruits. It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic | fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has | been done before, of course. | | Photos if it does, please, Nick! It's just a little similar to us going to | Les Baux and being fascinated that we were on some very high hilltops but | kept seeing limpet shells in the rock faces. OK. And probably the stones, for people to grow on :-) But I am not expecting it - currently, I have plenty of foliage but nothing more. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Oh for some sunshine.......... ;-( -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
Damons? Plums?
On 14th August Sacha wrote:
We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) Sorry I missed this first time round. I'm writing from Normandy at the moment and when I bought this house eighteen years ago it came with several plum trees of two varieties. One of the varieties is definitely a damson but when I asked my neighbour what he called it he unhelpfully replied "prune"! So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum - damson would appear to be a corruption of this). Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande. David -- David Rance writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France |
Damons? Plums?
In article , David Rance writes: | | So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply | as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is | slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum - | damson would appear to be a corruption of this). Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin. The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille being an example. | Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees | with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This | year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande. And I had the most appalling aphids - no fruit :-( Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Damons? Plums?
On 16th August Nick Maclaren wrote:
David Rance writes: | | So the damson is known here but the French appear to refer to it simply | as a variety of plum. Having looked it up in Collins-Robert it is | slightly more helpful, calling it a "prune de damas" (a Damascus plum - | damson would appear to be a corruption of this). Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin. Quite! So is the greengage which the French call Reine Claude! The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille being an example. They do distinguish between groseille rouge, groseille blanche and groseille à maquereau (gooseberry). Not the blackcurrant however which is cassis | Yes, I suppose my damson trees are somewhat smaller than the plum trees | with finer branches. Every year my plum trees fruit prolifically. This | year, not one! We had early frosts here in the Suisse Normande. Sorry, that should have been late frosts! And I had the most appalling aphids - no fruit :-( I sympathise. David -- David Rance writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France |
Damons? Plums?
On 16/8/08 16:12, in article ,
"AriesVal" wrote: On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 16:07:33 +0100, Sacha wrote: Oh for some sunshine.......... ;-( Yes please! Snap the fingers! There you are!! Oh - whoops, failed again. ;-( -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
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