Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Melanie

"Melanie Sands" wrote

Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!


Firstly you have opened a can or worms. Personally myself I want cats in my
garden and certainly on my allotment, damn mice/voles have eaten a lot of
our potatoes this year because the houses round about our plot do not have
any cats. Our previous allotment had 27 cats quite close by at the Swan
Sanctuary and we never had any problem with mice/voles or pigeons. Got hit
by a swan on takeoff though.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On Sep 9, 1:43*pm, Melanie Sands wrote:
Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially *in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Melanie

Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.
They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in. You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose, why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door. I don't
suppose they notice.

On 10/09/2011 07:14, harry wrote:
On Sep 9, 1:43 pm, Melanie wrote:
Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Melanie

Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.
They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in. You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose, why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door. I don't
suppose they notice.
Rake a fine tilth, sew your seeds, then in the morning find a cat has
visited and spoilt a lot of your hard work.

--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

In article b8522edb-6006-40c9-b2b1-
, says...

On Sep 9, 1:43*pm, Melanie Sands wrote:
Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially *in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Melanie

Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.
They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in. You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose, why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door. I don't
suppose they notice.

Well said that man, I totally agree!

Why is it that after many years, dog owners are now beginning to
clear up after them, but cats are ignored!

Mind you, I expect you'll get a load of angy moggy lovers shouting at
you.

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

"Moonraker" wrote

Rake a fine tilth, sew your seeds, then in the morning find a cat has
visited and spoilt a lot of your hard work.


I'd much rather that than lose all your crops to mice/voles/rats, at least
you can replant straight away and put some wire netting over the bed to stop
it happening again. Not much you can do about all rodents, but a cat can.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

In article ,
alan.holmes wrote:

Cats are as natural as any othe animal and they are native to this country,
unlike the grey squirrel!

Er, no. The native cat is either a different species or a VERY
different subspecies.

The problem with cats is that they are provided with food and
shelter, thus enabling a density of population hundreds (or, more
probably, thousands) of times higher than would occur in nature.
And, despite your claims, they are are much greater threat to
small birds than grey squirrels are.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Sep 9, 1:43 pm, Melanie Sands wrote:
Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very
tidy:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in
ourfice/workshop:http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Melanie

Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.
They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in. You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose, why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door. I don't
suppose they notice.

I always knew there was something wrong with my nose, I have had cats around
me since I was very small, and I have never, ever had any trouble with them
smelling, in fact when I was small, female cats in those days always
produced loads of kittens as operating on them to stop that was not easily
done, vets cost a lot of money and most people could not afford that, in
those days small boys were always dressed in pinafores which had a large
pocket in the front, when our cats had fed the kittens I always took them
and put them into the pocket and carried them with me until the parent cat
wanted to fed them, then I passed the kittens back to her, and again when
she had finnished feeding them I picked them up again back to the pocket!

Cats are as natural as any othe animal and they are native to this country,
unlike the grey squirrel!

The real menace to our wildlife is the grey squirrel which plunders birds
nests damaging the eggs and killing the young birds!

Alan

There are enough repeats on the Beeb. If it will help to save people
the effort of repeating themselves ad nauseam, I can repost the
content of earlier threads on this subject. :~

Cheers
Jake
==============================================
Gardening at the less wet end of Swansea Bay
but moved on from Tolkien; now half way through
the complete Harry Potter.

www.rivendell.org.uk

Jake Nospam@invalid wrote in news:vc4n67ped33i58bnldqhb8i4j8csih06na@
4ax.com:

There are enough repeats on the Beeb. If it will help to save people
the effort of repeating themselves ad nauseam, I can repost the
content of earlier threads on this subject. :~

Cheers
Jake
==============================================
Gardening at the less wet end of Swansea Bay
but moved on from Tolkien; now half way through
the complete Harry Potter.

www.rivendell.org.uk

Jake,
Simply, don't read them.
Ignore the thread and move on.

To be honest, I like the thread and will read all of the views, repeated or
not, because I have a dislike of cats, they make my skin crawl and I as a
UK citizen I should be able to go about my day to day life without them,
and fouling my garden where I grow things to eat. We have lots of strays
here, too many for the local council and rescue agencies to handle because
of the breeding habits and the irresponsible former and current owners
attitude.

I feel very strongly about this subject, and it is on topic.

Baz

"Bob Hobden" wrote in
:

Got hit by a swan on takeoff though.

Where were you going to, Bob?

Hope you landed ok.

Baz

On Sep 9, 2:03*pm, "Bob Hobden" wrote:
"Melanie Sands" *wrote





Okay, so I've done a bit of googling and snooping in the posts in this
group to find out why.
There's much talk about "crap" and "poo" - but are you sure it's not
HEDGEHOGS that are doing the dirty?

We have an office/workshop surrounded by fields and allotment
gardens / community gardens.
Often, cats come by and especially *in the winter when it's really
cold
(I live in Switzerland) I feed them, thinking (wrongly) that if they
don't
have a collar they must be wild/stray cats.

Come summer, many of the garden allotment folks also feed the cats
with barbeque sausages etc., but others poison them or, as one
gardener told me, he "presses their heads down into the soil until
they are kaputt".

Over the past 6 years, over 12 cats suddenly disappeared:
on this page there is a pixture of our "gazebo" on our parking lot,
where I
have potted plants, and the only animals who crap there are
said hedgehogs. The cats were always very tidy:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo.html

Latest disappearance victim is my own cat Büsli
who was not only sweet and affectionate and followed
me round like a dog, but was also an expert mouse-catcher -
very useful as we have food in ourfice/workshop:
http://roundtablespage.tvheaven.com/photo2.html

so I'm wondering - do gardeners WANT mice?

I just don't understand the fuss. If you like nature, surely
you like nature's creatures - especially such useful
ones and low-maintenance ones!

Firstly you have opened a can or worms. Personally myself I want cats in my
garden and certainly on my allotment, damn mice/voles have eaten a lot of
our potatoes this year because the houses round about our plot do not have
any cats. Our previous allotment had 27 cats quite close by at the Swan
Sanctuary and we never had any problem with mice/voles or pigeons. Got hit
by a swan on takeoff though.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I could give a list as long as your arm of well known and good
gardeners who have/had cats around them in their gardens and a great
many more who probably wouldn't rank as well known or good - you can
add me to that list. Beyond that I won't rise to the usual cat hating
suspects or the trolls, Besides that I've probably had more
companionship and pleasure from cats than I have had from people (No,
I don't hate people - not many of them anyway)

Rod

On 10 Sep., 08:14, harry wrote:

Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. *They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.

Go ahead, put all the animals in cages. No more free-flying
birds! Then they won't poop on our cars or fly into our
airplanes!
No more free-swimming fish in the ocean, then they won't eat us!
No more insects in the air, then they won't sting us or
fly into our nostrils and land in our drinks and settle on our
picnic-food!

They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in.

Ah - now finally I understand why SOME gardeners are behind fences!

*You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose,

Yes, unfortunately. Extremely unnatural situation nowadays.
Pigs not allowed to run out into the field, but have to slip
around on shite-covered concrete floors, each calf torn away
from its cow-mother after 6 weeks, cows tied up by their tails
in the barn, chickens cooped up in horrid sheds,
rabbits in cages the size of two sheets of paper...

Human beings really are shite to animals.

why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. *You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door.

That's because they are locked up and forced to pee into a
non-flushing toilet, instead of being able to do their stuff
outside and cover it up with sand/earth, as free-running cats DO.

Of course, our own, human toilets always smell of Chanel Nr. 5 when we
go to the loo...in fact, we humans always smell just wonderful,
whether it's our breath, our armpits, our private parts, our scalps,
our feet - nothing like all those smelly animals, euwwh!

As for cats wrecking a fresh flower bed or freshly planted seeds -
bullshit! I've planted seeds and forgot to cover the pots with
netting, and the next day I saw crows and smaller black-coloured birds
digging up the seeds with their beaks and tossing the earth around
everywhere,
and by the time I went outside, narry a seed was left in the pots.

I berated myself for being such an amateur, and thought how every
professional gardener knows one has to cover a freshly-
planted bed with protective netting till the seeds had started to
push through the earth!

BTW, I read on a previous cat thread about a woman watching two cats
"crapping on her lawn". The cats were quite right. A lawn is
an abomination! If someone gave me a lawn, I'd instantly mix
a few kilos of various flower seeds and scatter them over the
grass and water them to get a lovely multi-coloured mini-meadow
one can really sink one's feet into! Low-maintenance and so
much better for the environment, too.

By the way, if those community-gardeners at our office were less
interested in
guzzling beer/barbequeing/burning wet leaves (which is against the
law)
on their allotments and more interested in picking up the pears,
peaches, apples
and grapes that rot on the ground under their trees, and cutting
their cabbages and lettuce before it all shoots up half a metre,
I'd maybe take them seriously as gardeners, instead of as the
AA-reject animal murderers they are.

Oh, and by the way - since I put out bowls of milk and canned, meaty
cat food, the long brown slugs have left off eating my plants and
drink the milk and gulp down the cat food. Works better than beer
and slug poison!

Melanie

On Sep 11, 2:47*pm, Melanie Sands wrote:
On 10 Sep., 08:14, harry wrote:



Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. *They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.

Go ahead, put all the animals in cages. No more free-flying
birds! Then they won't poop on our cars or fly into our
airplanes!
No more free-swimming fish in the ocean, then they won't eat us!
No more insects in the air, then they won't sting us or
fly into our nostrils and land in our drinks and settle on our
picnic-food!

They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in.

Ah - now finally I understand why SOME gardeners are behind fences!

*You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose,

Yes, unfortunately. Extremely unnatural situation nowadays.
Pigs not allowed to run out into the field, but have to slip
around on shite-covered concrete floors, each calf torn away
from its cow-mother after 6 weeks, cows tied up by their tails
in the barn, chickens cooped up in horrid sheds,
rabbits in cages the size of two sheets of paper...

Human beings really are shite to animals.

why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. *You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door.

That's because they are locked up and forced to pee into a
non-flushing toilet, instead of being able to do their stuff
outside and cover it up with sand/earth, as free-running cats DO.

Of course, our own, human toilets always smell of Chanel Nr. 5 when we
go to the loo...in fact, we humans always smell just wonderful,
whether it's our breath, our armpits, our private parts, our scalps,
our feet - nothing like all those smelly animals, euwwh!

As for cats wrecking a fresh flower bed or freshly planted seeds -
bullshit! I've planted seeds and forgot to cover the pots with
netting, and the next day I saw crows and smaller black-coloured birds
digging up the seeds with their beaks and tossing the earth around
everywhere,
and by the time I went outside, narry a seed was left in the pots.

I berated myself for being such an amateur, and thought how every
professional gardener knows one has to cover a freshly-
planted bed with protective netting till the seeds had started to
push through the earth!

BTW, I read on a previous cat thread about a woman watching two cats
"crapping on her lawn". The cats were quite right. A lawn is
an abomination! If someone gave me a lawn, I'd instantly mix
a few kilos of various flower seeds and scatter them over the
grass and water them to get a lovely multi-coloured mini-meadow
one can really sink one's feet into! Low-maintenance and so
much better for the environment, too.

By the way, if those community-gardeners at our office were less
interested in
guzzling beer/barbequeing/burning wet leaves (which is against the
law)
on their allotments and more interested in picking up the pears,
peaches, apples
and grapes that rot on the ground under their trees, and cutting
their cabbages and lettuce before it all shoots up half a metre,
I'd maybe take them seriously as gardeners, instead of as the
AA-reject animal murderers they are.

Oh, and by the way - since I put out bowls of milk and canned, meaty
cat food, the long brown slugs have left off eating my plants and
drink the milk and gulp down the cat food. Works better than beer
and slug poison!

Melanie
Aha.You are a nutcase. Thought so.
Cats are not native to this country, they are mere pets. Introducing/
freeing non-native animals is always a mistake. So if you want one,
keep it securely locked up.
If you leave it run free, don't be surprised if someone takes it into
their heads to deal with it if it becames a nuisance.

On Sep 11, 2:47*pm, Melanie Sands wrote:
On 10 Sep., 08:14, harry wrote:



Cat s are not natures creatures. They are a feral menace to our
wildlife. *They don't belong in our countryside/gardens.
I don't understand why cat owners own cats or leave them run loose.

Go ahead, put all the animals in cages. No more free-flying
birds! Then they won't poop on our cars or fly into our
airplanes!
No more free-swimming fish in the ocean, then they won't eat us!
No more insects in the air, then they won't sting us or
fly into our nostrils and land in our drinks and settle on our
picnic-food!

They should be kept in cages ike a hamster or fenced in.

Ah - now finally I understand why SOME gardeners are behind fences!

*You can't
leave a horse or a dog run loose,

Yes, unfortunately. Extremely unnatural situation nowadays.
Pigs not allowed to run out into the field, but have to slip
around on shite-covered concrete floors, each calf torn away
from its cow-mother after 6 weeks, cows tied up by their tails
in the barn, chickens cooped up in horrid sheds,
rabbits in cages the size of two sheets of paper...

Human beings really are shite to animals.

why should a cat be let run loose?
Nasty smelly things. *You can always tell when there is a cat in
someone's house by the stench when you walk in the door.

That's because they are locked up and forced to pee into a
non-flushing toilet, instead of being able to do their stuff
outside and cover it up with sand/earth, as free-running cats DO.

Of course, our own, human toilets always smell of Chanel Nr. 5 when we
go to the loo...in fact, we humans always smell just wonderful,
whether it's our breath, our armpits, our private parts, our scalps,
our feet - nothing like all those smelly animals, euwwh!

As for cats wrecking a fresh flower bed or freshly planted seeds -
bullshit! I've planted seeds and forgot to cover the pots with
netting, and the next day I saw crows and smaller black-coloured birds
digging up the seeds with their beaks and tossing the earth around
everywhere,
and by the time I went outside, narry a seed was left in the pots.

I berated myself for being such an amateur, and thought how every
professional gardener knows one has to cover a freshly-
planted bed with protective netting till the seeds had started to
push through the earth!

BTW, I read on a previous cat thread about a woman watching two cats
"crapping on her lawn". The cats were quite right. A lawn is
an abomination! If someone gave me a lawn, I'd instantly mix
a few kilos of various flower seeds and scatter them over the
grass and water them to get a lovely multi-coloured mini-meadow
one can really sink one's feet into! Low-maintenance and so
much better for the environment, too.

By the way, if those community-gardeners at our office were less
interested in
guzzling beer/barbequeing/burning wet leaves (which is against the
law)
on their allotments and more interested in picking up the pears,
peaches, apples
and grapes that rot on the ground under their trees, and cutting
their cabbages and lettuce before it all shoots up half a metre,
I'd maybe take them seriously as gardeners, instead of as the
AA-reject animal murderers they are.

Oh, and by the way - since I put out bowls of milk and canned, meaty
cat food, the long brown slugs have left off eating my plants and
drink the milk and gulp down the cat food. Works better than beer
and slug poison!

Melanie

I see you know absolutely nothing about lawns, grass or meadows too.
In short, you are an uneducated half wit.