In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 Sacha wrote:

There are very mixed views about whether their wine is ever
delicious, but let that pass.
None of those vineyards would say that they can rely on the
grapes ripening enough to make good wine - indeed, the ones I
have visited have all said that they can produce drinkable
wine most years, but some years are a washout (often literally!)

Sharpham and Camel Valley win many awards. The latter has, iirc,
beaten some French wines. I don't know how many you've drunk but we
have often lunched at Sharpham and enjoyed their wines, so we do have
some first hand experience. I'm not arguing about viability, merely
commenting.

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the
kinds of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller
flavour of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.

Yes, precisely, but that wasn't the point I was flamed for making.

That was that grapes don't ripen reliably in the UK, which they
don't. In some places, and with some varieties, they do pretty well,
but they need a favourable location and a suitable variety for the UK
to get even acceptable reliability. And, in bad years, even that
isn't enough!

Most of the vineyards I have visited were pretty evasive about their
success rate, but the few that answered indicated that they had to
write off enough years that it needed budgetting for.

And, of course, chapitalisation is almost always used, which is a
pretty sure sign of less than optimal ripening.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 Nick Maclaren wrote:

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the
kinds of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller
flavour of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.

Yes, precisely, but that wasn't the point I was flamed for making.

That was that grapes don't ripen reliably in the UK, which they
don't. In some places, and with some varieties, they do pretty well,
but they need a favourable location and a suitable variety for the UK
to get even acceptable reliability. And, in bad years, even that
isn't enough!

But what is "reliably"? If we accept that grapes in the UK are never
going to reach the same level of ripeness as in mid and southern France,
then we can use a different measure for judging ripeness.

Most years will produce a good harvest using the varieties developed for
this country. It's interesting that many UK vineyards are now majoring
on producing sparkling wines. The Champagne area of France started doing
this because they were too far north to produce still wines acceptable
to the French public. The UK is now imitating this with a great degree
of success.

I should qualify the above by saying that I'm referring to UK vineyards
in the southern counties and only to white wine.

And, of course, chapitalisation is almost always used, which is a
pretty sure sign of less than optimal ripening

Well, I rarely have to resort to chaptalisation (sic!) - but it's not
unknown. ;-)

We will never produce heavy wines. UK wine will always be lighter with a
rather lower alcohol content. For myself, I'm content with a wine of
around 9% to 10% which I can readily produce most years. But if that's
not enough for the British public then obviously chaptalisation will
take place. but that, in my view, is cheating.

Chaptalisation is allowed in France only to bring the sugar content up
to what one would expect in an average year for that AOC area. Thus it
wouldn't be used all that often. If it happens in the UK do the
wine-makers add the other flavours necessary for a heavier wine? I have
strongly suspected that they do this to UK red wines as the UK cannot
ripen red varieties well enough.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 Sacha wrote:

The first time I saw rose ushes growing at the end of rows of
vines, I thought "how nice that they want to beautify the vineyards",
realising they were the canary down the coalmine!

Absolutely! And, of course, the roses are sprayed with Bordeaux
mixture along with the vines!

As we saw on another visit!

Have you ever seen them spray along the banks of the Mosel and Rhine in
Germany? Since they can't effectively get tractors up and down the banks
of the river they hire light aircraft to do the job!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

In article ,
David Rance wrote:

And, of course, chapitalisation is almost always used, which is a
pretty sure sign of less than optimal ripening

Well, I rarely have to resort to chaptalisation (sic!) - but it's not
unknown. ;-)

I stand corrected :-)

We will never produce heavy wines. UK wine will always be lighter with a
rather lower alcohol content. For myself, I'm content with a wine of
around 9% to 10% which I can readily produce most years. But if that's
not enough for the British public then obviously chaptalisation will
take place. but that, in my view, is cheating.

I agree. Personally, I find that the high alcohol content of the
drinks with strong flavours to be a disadvantage.

Chaptalisation is allowed in France only to bring the sugar content up
to what one would expect in an average year for that AOC area. Thus it
wouldn't be used all that often. If it happens in the UK do the
wine-makers add the other flavours necessary for a heavier wine? I have
strongly suspected that they do this to UK red wines as the UK cannot
ripen red varieties well enough.

I don't know. Also, I don't know exactly how many do it because, as
I said, most were rather evasive or claimed things that weren't true
(as they did in California, too!)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 25/07/2012 09:57, Sacha wrote:
On 2012-07-25 09:47:10 +0100, David Rance
said:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 Sacha wrote:

Edward Hyams was among the first to reintroduce vines as wine growing
plants to UK. http://www.molash.com/archive/hyams.htm He grew
several here and in Kent before he moved and they were not a total
success. Otoh, Sharpham Vineyard on the banks of the Dart, about 30
minutes drive from here on a busy day, produces delicious wine. We
do have commercial vineyards but not in the thousands and thousands
of bottles that can be produced in e.g. Bordeaux.

There have been advances in developing grape varieties since Hyams'
time (I believe he was active in the 1940s/50s) and in most years one
can expect a reasonable harvest.

I'm sure there must have been great advances and yes he was working on
this in the 40s/50s. He was also an anarchist who loved the good life
and was quite the name-dropper. An interesting combination!

I had never heard of Edward Hyams until his name was mentioned here.
However, a neighbour and friend of mine who died two years ago was also
named Hyams. It turns out that Edward Hyams had exactly the same name
(Edward Soloman Hyams) as my friend's father - but he was born 30 years
earlier in 1880 - and they were from the same part of London. They must
have been related. This is intriguing, I do wish I had known about
Edward Hyams a few years back so I could have asked my old friend about
his connection to him.

"David Rance" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 Sacha wrote:

On 2012-07-24 19:01:37 +0100, said:

There are very mixed views about whether their wine is ever
delicious, but let that pass.
None of those vineyards would say that they can rely on the
grapes ripening enough to make good wine - indeed, the ones I
have visited have all said that they can produce drinkable
wine most years, but some years are a washout (often literally!)

Sharpham and Camel Valley win many awards. The latter has, iirc, beaten
some French wines. I don't know how many you've drunk but we have often
lunched at Sharpham and enjoyed their wines, so we do have some first hand
experience. I'm not arguing about viability, merely commenting.

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the kinds
of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller flavour
of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.


Oh, come on! British wine is rubbish.

In article ,
Christina Websell wrote:

"David Rance" wrote in message
...

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the kinds
of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller flavour
of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.

Oh, come on! British wine is rubbish.

Anything labelled British wine is made from concentrated bulk
grape juice, often from surplus grapes that are not suitable
for making 'proper' wine or from non-wine varieties. Anything
produced from grapes in the traditional way is called English
wine.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 26/07/2012 07:52, wrote:
In article ,
Christina Websell wrote:

"David Rance" wrote in message
...

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the kinds
of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller flavour
of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.

Oh, come on! British wine is rubbish.

Anything labelled British wine is made from concentrated bulk
grape juice, often from surplus grapes that are not suitable
for making 'proper' wine or from non-wine varieties. Anything
produced from grapes in the traditional way is called English
wine.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.



Or Welsh wine.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 Christina Websell wrote:

There are very mixed views about whether their wine is ever
delicious, but let that pass.
None of those vineyards would say that they can rely on the
grapes ripening enough to make good wine - indeed, the ones I
have visited have all said that they can produce drinkable
wine most years, but some years are a washout (often literally!)

Sharpham and Camel Valley win many awards. The latter has, iirc, beaten
some French wines. I don't know how many you've drunk but we have often
lunched at Sharpham and enjoyed their wines, so we do have some first hand
experience. I'm not arguing about viability, merely commenting.

If I remember rightly (and he is sure to correct me if I'm wrong!) from
previous exchanges I've had with him, Nick simply does not like the kinds
of wine that our northern latitude produces, preferring the fuller flavour
of wines grown in warmer climes.

Just a matter of taste.

Oh, come on! British wine is rubbish.

British wine *is* rubbish. English wine is not. Nick has defined the
difference very well so I don't need to repeat it.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

"David Rance" wrote
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 Christina Websell wrote:
Oh, come on! British wine is rubbish.

British wine *is* rubbish. English wine is not. Nick has defined the
difference very well so I don't need to repeat it.

I didn't know the difference in description until we visited Biddenden
vineyard in Kent recently where that was explained. They're producing
some excellent award-winning English wine. Among others, they had a
lovely Pinot Noir, which doesn't seem to be on the website (but was in
their shop). If I saw that in a wine-merchants or supermarket wine dept
I'd definitely buy it again.

--
Sue