On 07/09/2013 12:39, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Baz wrote:
I was wondering, instead of wasting gas and electricity to sterilize the
jars, if citric acid and sodium bisulphite(as in winemaking sterilization)
would do the trick.
I do bottle some things when I have the oven on and cooking.

No, they wouldn't. Not even remotely.

That combination kills things like acetobacter, lactobacter etc.,
few of which sporulate. If you are going to store non-acid foods
anaerobically, you need to either kill some very tough spores or
prevent them from growing. That is why salting, smoking etc. were
and are used to preserve such foods.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I am sure that in the beginning Baz said he was going to bottle fruit
and veg.
Where have you got this obsessive idea that he is going to bottle fish
and meat?
For fruit I've used a combination of Sodium Metabisulphite and boiling
water to clean the jars, as I do for Jam, just has foul vapour.
David @ a now clouding over side of Swansea Bay

In article ,
David Hill wrote:

I was wondering, instead of wasting gas and electricity to sterilize the
jars, if citric acid and sodium bisulphite(as in winemaking sterilization)
would do the trick.
I do bottle some things when I have the oven on and cooking.

No, they wouldn't. Not even remotely.

That combination kills things like acetobacter, lactobacter etc.,
few of which sporulate. If you are going to store non-acid foods
anaerobically, you need to either kill some very tough spores or
prevent them from growing. That is why salting, smoking etc. were
and are used to preserve such foods.

I am sure that in the beginning Baz said he was going to bottle fruit
and veg.
Where have you got this obsessive idea that he is going to bottle fish
and meat?
For fruit I've used a combination of Sodium Metabisulphite and boiling
water to clean the jars, as I do for Jam, just has foul vapour.

I have not, but you seem to have an obsessive delusion that all
vegetables are high in acid. Since you seem to have trouble with
this:

MOST VEGETABLES DO NOT CONTAIN ENOUGH ACID TO STOP CLOSTRIDIUM
BOTULINUM FROM GROWING.

MOST FRUITS DO, HOWEVER, AND *T*H*E*R*F*O*R*E* EXPERIENCE WITH
FRUIT IS *I*R*R*E*L*E*V*A*N*T*.

THE RISK OF BOTULISM FROM BOTTLING VEGETABLES IS VERY LOW.

BUT THE RISK OF DEATH IS *V*E*R*Y* HIGH IF IT DOES HAPPEN.

IT IS PROBABLY *H*I*G*H*E*R* THAN FOR MEAT AND FISH, FOR
SEVERAL REASONS.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article ,
David Hill wrote:

I was wondering, instead of wasting gas and electricity to
sterilize the jars, if citric acid and sodium bisulphite(as in
winemaking sterilization) would do the trick.
I do bottle some things when I have the oven on and cooking.

No, they wouldn't. Not even remotely.

That combination kills things like acetobacter, lactobacter etc.,
few of which sporulate. If you are going to store non-acid foods
anaerobically, you need to either kill some very tough spores or
prevent them from growing. That is why salting, smoking etc. were
and are used to preserve such foods.

I am sure that in the beginning Baz said he was going to bottle fruit
and veg.
Where have you got this obsessive idea that he is going to bottle fish
and meat?
For fruit I've used a combination of Sodium Metabisulphite and boiling
water to clean the jars, as I do for Jam, just has foul vapour.

I have not, but you seem to have an obsessive delusion that all
vegetables are high in acid. Since you seem to have trouble with
this:

MOST VEGETABLES DO NOT CONTAIN ENOUGH ACID TO STOP CLOSTRIDIUM
BOTULINUM FROM GROWING.

MOST FRUITS DO, HOWEVER, AND *T*H*E*R*F*O*R*E* EXPERIENCE WITH
FRUIT IS *I*R*R*E*L*E*V*A*N*T*.

THE RISK OF BOTULISM FROM BOTTLING VEGETABLES IS VERY LOW.

BUT THE RISK OF DEATH IS *V*E*R*Y* HIGH IF IT DOES HAPPEN.

IT IS PROBABLY *H*I*G*H*E*R* THAN FOR MEAT AND FISH, FOR
SEVERAL REASONS.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

Baz

In article , Baz wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....


All the above is true.
You could do it by putting your filled jars in a pressure cooker.
You would need to be certain all parts of the contents were heated through.
You would need to be certain they were cool (unpressurised before opening
the pressure cooker.
So even then a bit dodgy.

This is how tinned meats are manufacuted commercially, ie they are sealed in
the tin an cooked in an autoclave at high steam pressure.

In article ,
says...

You could do it by putting your filled jars in a pressure cooker.
You would need to be certain all parts of the contents were heated through.

Have you never used a pressure cooker?

You would need to be certain they were cool (unpressurised before opening
the pressure cooker.

Nobody who has ever used a pressure cooker would find it remotely
difficult to depressurise or cool.

So even then a bit dodgy.

Using a pressure cooker is not in the least bit uncertain difficult or
dodgy; just unnecessary in this instance.


http://www.1900s.org.uk/1940s50s-preserving-fruit.htm
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/Preserving/guides/how-to-
preserve#.UixMLH8WYuc

Janet

"Janet" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...

You could do it by putting your filled jars in a pressure cooker.
You would need to be certain all parts of the contents were heated
through.

Have you never used a pressure cooker?

You would need to be certain they were cool (unpressurised before opening
the pressure cooker.

Nobody who has ever used a pressure cooker would find it remotely
difficult to depressurise or cool.

So even then a bit dodgy.

Using a pressure cooker is not in the least bit uncertain difficult or
dodgy; just unnecessary in this instance.


http://www.1900s.org.uk/1940s50s-preserving-fruit.htm
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/Preserving/guides/how-to-
preserve#.UixMLH8WYuc

Janet

Clearly you are one that needs to be made aware of the dangers.
If you rapidly depressurise a pressure cooker and there is a closed
container inside, the container may explode due to over pressure and/or
thermal shock.

In article ,
lid says...

I'd just like to add that German and Dutch stores sell bottled
vegetables.

I'd just like to add, so do UK supermarkets.

Janet.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many of
us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how to
replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

We are not trolls and idiots.

Baz

In article , Baz wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many of
us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how to
replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many
of us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how
to replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

I am glad to hear that.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

I would definatly NOT try with meat+fish.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I can't fill all the Kilners with fruit this year. I have 8X 2pint jars
done with soft fruit and later in the year perhaps pears.
I have a video of Ruth LaMotte bottling tomatoes, re-enacting the dig for
victory campaign. The way the tomatoes are ripening now, I can maybe fill
all the jars by the end of this month.

Thankyou, Nick, for clarification and all.
Baz

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 12:50:17 +0100 (BST), Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

Were domestic pressure cookers easily available during the war? I
have a feeling that they may have existed before but like a lot of
things disappeared during and only reappeared in the early 50's.

I agree there has been some mis-information in this thread,
bottling/canning really combines several preservation processes
depending on what is being bottled/canned. Broadly these processes
are heat treatment, hermetic sealing and sugar/acidity level.

The heat treatment and sugar acid levels are interrelated in that if
you have high sugar (jams etc) or high acid level (ph4.6 according
to wikipedia) you don't need to have heat treatment above 100C. If
the sugar content is low / acidity ph4.6 then you ought to have
high temperature treatment and the way to do that is in a pressure
vessel of some sort.

Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 08/09/13 12:50, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's an intensely practical book, also giving enough
theory to enable the reader to understand why the practice
has evolved.

It has chapters on jams, jellies, marmalade, fruit cheeses &
butters, mincemeat & other fruit preserves, bottled fruit,
fruit syrups and squashes, vinegars, pickles, chutneys,
ketchup, drying & salting, freezing, storing fruit & vegetables.

(1) botulism is mentioned prominently, with appropriate warnings
(2) some jams, e.g. cherry have added citric/tartaric acid
(3) all the methods for vegetables are freezing or drying or
adding to chutney and marrow jam requires extra acid
(4) THERE ARE NO RECIPES FOR CANNING/BOTTLING VEGETABLES unless
acid or salt are present
(5) pressure cooking: 5lb for bottled fruit, 10lb for jam,
15lb for nothing
(6) despite the book's title, there is relatively little
vegetables - just freeze them or dry them

On 07/09/2013 14:13, Baz wrote:
(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article ,
David Hill wrote:

I was wondering, instead of wasting gas and electricity to
sterilize the jars, if citric acid and sodium bisulphite(as in
winemaking sterilization) would do the trick.
I do bottle some things when I have the oven on and cooking.

No, they wouldn't. Not even remotely.

That combination kills things like acetobacter, lactobacter etc.,
few of which sporulate. If you are going to store non-acid foods
anaerobically, you need to either kill some very tough spores or
prevent them from growing. That is why salting, smoking etc. were
and are used to preserve such foods.

I am sure that in the beginning Baz said he was going to bottle fruit
and veg.
Where have you got this obsessive idea that he is going to bottle fish
and meat?
For fruit I've used a combination of Sodium Metabisulphite and boiling
water to clean the jars, as I do for Jam, just has foul vapour.

I have not, but you seem to have an obsessive delusion that all
vegetables are high in acid. Since you seem to have trouble with
this:

MOST VEGETABLES DO NOT CONTAIN ENOUGH ACID TO STOP CLOSTRIDIUM
BOTULINUM FROM GROWING.

MOST FRUITS DO, HOWEVER, AND *T*H*E*R*F*O*R*E* EXPERIENCE WITH
FRUIT IS *I*R*R*E*L*E*V*A*N*T*.

THE RISK OF BOTULISM FROM BOTTLING VEGETABLES IS VERY LOW.

BUT THE RISK OF DEATH IS *V*E*R*Y* HIGH IF IT DOES HAPPEN.

IT IS PROBABLY *H*I*G*H*E*R* THAN FOR MEAT AND FISH, FOR
SEVERAL REASONS.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

He is *D*E*A*D*L*Y* serious. If you get the pH wrong then herbs or
garlic in oil can be an almost perfect way to create the right anaerobic
conditions that allow any botulinum free reign to grow. Any vegetables
with even slight soil contaminiation may be a vector.

It is one of those recent DIY grow your own "health food" home bottling
fads that has caused several nasty incidents. Fatalities are ~50% if not
treated quickly and about 8% with early diagnosis and treatment.

US where home canning is more popular have more of a problem with it
than we do in the UK. Acidic environments like preserved fruit are
fairly safe. Although nothing is guaranteed branded products that you
would expect to be safe on multiple levels have failed in the past eg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15712910

(I was looking for the one on home preservation and pH guidelines)

US sites have the most detailed information, but I do recall a home
garlic/chilli oil one in the UK not so long ago.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html

Surprisingly over there asparagus is the main culprit. I reckon it is
sacrilege not to eat them poached immediately fresh out of the ground!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 07/09/2013 13:54, Nick Maclaren wrote:


BUT THE RISK OF DEATH IS *V*E*R*Y* HIGH IF IT DOES HAPPEN.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Think you'll find that although that used to be the case, with antitoxin
treatment and intensive care (mainly artificial respiration), it is down
to around 10%, maybe less.

--

Jeff